Wilfrid

I was using an "advanced search" which allowed me to specify all the words Tirelire + Lyon + restaurant. I was getting two hits, one of which was your site. neither hit showed any sign of the word "Tirelire". I am sorry you told me about the Michelin site - looks like another hour wasted! :) It was a casual place - very popular with young locals as the evening wore on - and may be a bit under the radar for guides. You know the covered street which is lined with tourist trap restaurants, running parallel with the Saone, towards that side of the island. Well, Tirelire was on a street leading down to the river, a block or so south (not strictly south, but roughly) of the end of the covered street. Perhaps I should start writing addresses of restaurants when I make notes! And thanks again for a derivation I didn't know. "Tirelire" only ever put in mind of "'Tirrah lirrah, by the river', sang Sir Lancelot"; one of Tennyson's less successful couplets I would say.

To avoid the bottle risk, maybe drip it in from a shot glass or something similar?

I must have gone there around late September/early October last year, because it was just after the area below 14th Street got opened up again, and I felt like supporting a downtown restaurant. They had very recently installed a new chef, overhauled the menu, and - I think both because of a certain re-launch mood, and in response to adversity - were really working hard at hospitality, service and everything else - so I had a good time. It's a lively place, with tables fairly close together, but not too noisy. A rough description of the cuisine would be traditional American dishes, but with interesting and unusual accents. Example: short ribs (of course), but with a garnish of rock shrimp. Kind of surf 'n' turf. I found it very successful at first, but by the last few bites I was pushing the shrimp aside and eating the beef. Nice try though, and it's certainly a place I mean to go back to quite soon.

Thanks for the comments. Others have said the same of Felidia - maybe I've just been lucky. Mesa Grill - well, I always plan to be seated around forty minutes late there, so that never comes as a surprise. In many ways, it's really not my kind of place, but I have found the food consistently good - not true of Bolo, I must say. I think restaurants like Daniel, Jean-Georges and Le Cirque easily disappoint because the reputations and prices raise expectations excessively high. I've certainly had disappointing dishes at each of them. Tommy, I know what you mean about that kind of service. When I ate at Cello recently, I had a captain who was perfectly pleasant but had the attention span of a gnat. While taking orders from me, he kept noticing things out of the corner of his eye which needed his attention. Well done on the all-round vision, but at one point, when he swivelled to deal with something while I was in mid-sentence, I did find myself saying "Bye then, see you later." I guess I must have been in a good mood, because it didn't upset me as much as it probably should have.

I might just add that so-called "Real Ales" in England - by which I really mean the hand-pumped beers produced on a relatively small artisanal scale, rather than the big brewers' attempts at the same - do yield subtle and complex differences in bouquet and flavor

I have had leaping flames from fat fires in the past, and when I attempt to flambe I am in the habit of keeping a wet and expendable towel or dishcloth to hand so that I can smother flames rather than fling the dish at the sink.

The name of the casual restaurant where I ate a good and large portion of tablier de sapeur is Tirelire. I recall also a nice warm sausage salad, a ridiculously large gratin dauphinoise, and a menu with most of the traditional local dishes. I gave up hunting for the address when my search engine kept redirecting me, believe it or not, to a site called Worldtable, which just didn't seem to have the information I needed;) If the restaurant is on Bux's site somewhere, we have indeed been going in circles. It seems from my tasting notes that it was quite a full day which ended at Tirelire. It seems we breakfasted on slices of andouille and onion bread at the morning market in Beaune, lunched on ham braised in Beaujolais while awaiting the TGV connection in Dijon, then managed the vast dinner in Lyons. As I recall, I slept fitfully that night.

No, I did mean Aquagrill, because I have lost the ability to read. Sorry. You did of course say Aquavit, and I can imagine a disappointing meal there too. It's a pretty unusual menu, and the waterfall can cause motion sickness! How many of these places get it right every time?

I don't blame you, sorry, and you do of course correctly identify the market I meant.

That's good and clear, Mark, thanks. I may have been working at too low a temperature in the past, and then inadvertently cooling things further by adding the spirit.

I have made it. I find firm, white fish steaks the easiest to handle, and I admit I tend to wrap a crust around the top only (Le Cirque's crust goes all the way around). Thin, overlapping potato slices, as Tommy advises. I don't brown in oil first, I go straight for the oven, and once I judge the fish is close to done, I use a broiler to just brown and crisp the potatoes (need to watch that closely). One option, which helps the potato slices adhere neatly, is to spread a very fine layer of some suitable sauce over the surface of the fish - I'm thinking of a tartare sauce or something - but really only a scrape. I guess some soft butter would do the same trick. Season the fish first, and then the potato layer too, of course. If you make a little red wine reduction to accompany it, you are entitled to feel like Daniel Boulud for the evening.

Hey, as I've said before, I have no problem with being correct. The last thing this was supposed to be was a list of surprises or secrets. And in fact, I notice you're wrong anyway: using Zagat's as a rough guide, I find I omit eight of the top twenty most popular Manhattan restaurants. I suspect there are some contributors lurking around here who may, nevertheless, think my list is wrong, or at least too heavily weighted in certain gastronomic directions. Macrosan: I can certainly imagine being diappointed at four or five you mention, certainly on the "value" front, but I'm sorry you were unlucky at Aguagrill. I would have identified that as a pretty reliable and fairly priced place. (Edited by Wilfrid at 5:32 pm on Jan. 22, 2002) (Edited by Wilfrid at 5:36 pm on Jan. 22, 2002)

The match question is important. I have tried using a match, and got an unmistakeable taint of sulphur in the food - I certainly advise against throwing the match in. i have resorted to using long wooden skewers (which themselves have to be dipped in spirit in order to be lightable). Dstone001: How much lighter fluid do you think I should pour into my food? About a pint shouldn't be too toxic, right?

I have just worked my way through this thread, and it's a cracker. Although there may be some countries where wine consumption predominates almost to the exclusion of beer consumption, or vice versa, for many societies - England for example - you would need to make very fine distinctions between social groupings (okay, classes) and historical periods, because there really isn't one homogeneous "culture". Let me sketch some details. For most of the twentieth century - okay, up to the late '70s - middle-class, working-class and sub-prole (if I may) England was predominantly a beer (not lager) culture. This needs further qualification: it was a public house culture, and beer was what pubs mainly served. By this I mean, that most drinking (by far) was done not in the home, but in a communal space - the pub - and pubs were laregly owned, run by, or somehow tithed to, breweries. Beer included bitter, mild, stout, and various ales. Some people may have taken a glass of wine at Christmas, and of course spirits were drunk. Nevertheless, throughout this period, the upper-middle and upper middle-classes continued the claret/champagne-centred wine drinking culture of their Victorian and Georgian forebears - although beer would have been taken too. Now, drawing connections with culture in the sense of art/literature/etc, you will find the role played by beer or wine (in England, in this period) reflected the social background of the cultural worker or artist, or - more often the not - the social background with which they wishes to be identified. George Orwell and J.B. Priestley, for example, identifying themselves with the workers and the sensible middle classes, respectively, would seek to be thought of as ale-drinkers. A representative of a (gay) Bohemian artworld, like Francis Bacon, would seek to distance himself utterly from "ordinary" England, and wouldn't be seen dead drinking bitter (let alone Guinness - his background was Irish)- he would call for champagne or French aperitifs. Oh, I could go on, but I suppose my thesis is that social/cultural preferences for wine or beer offer a rich field for analysis; and also that preferences are not straightforward - that people or groups often choose their drink not to reflect their heritage, but actually to separate themselves and indicate their difference either from other groups, or even from their own communities. I think that adds something :confused:

Er, the tablier de sapeur that is. It would be too much of a coincidence if Bux and I had enjoyed it at the same place, but it's possible: I ate it in a small restaurant, near the river, but on the modern city side. Big, plain windows in front, like a store. I will hunt back through the archives to see if I can name it. One tip: you might want to book ahead, even for the simple Lyonnais taverns. The traditional bouchons in the centre (which tend to look like old taverns with small (or no) windows, were either packed or claimed to be fully reserved on my two nights in the city. The Leon de Lyon looked great, and had empty tables, but were not interested in accommodating an Anglophone without a reservation. Also, there's a nice foodmarket which runs quite a distance along the river on the modern side. A good place to pick up hearty lunch items like saucisse en brioche.

Pan, a big thank you for the mouse deterrent tip. Although I am unwilling to be overrun by mice, I actually quite like the little scamps (I used to keep various rodents as pets), and am therefore reluctant to murder them. But my current housemate is driving me insane by chewing stuff in the small hours, so supersonic howling sounds just the ticket.

Can I broaden the question slightly? I have fearlessly tried to flambe dishes, but have the opposite problem. I get a faint blue flame which swiftly extinguishes itself with no discernible effect on the food. How do we steer a course between sputtering and conflagration?

I made this list for my own purposes, then thought I may as well throw it up here to attract opprobrium and brickbats. Like everyone, I appreciate having a wide choice of restaurants to choose from. However, it is in my character to dither indecisively when I am presented with too much choice. To save sweat, therefore, I listed the fifty restaurants which I will essentially be choosing from when I make a dinner reservation in Manhattan. Some qualifiers: I haven't listed the good, cheap joints where a reservation is not needed. Obviously, there are some new places I haven't tried yet. In order to get it down to fifty, I shelved the steakhouses - I do have my preferences, but I will normally choose between steakhouses depending where I want to eat rather than by fine distinctions in the cuisine. Some places which got left out are truly okay, but I have no reason to go back (example? Della Femina). Yes, this could have been a list of fifty three or fifty four, but I prize neatness. Finally, there are several obvious omissions because, not for wanting of trying, I haven't yet sampled them: Babbo, Esca, Nobu, Alain Ducasse - I don't really care about Union Square Cafe. Okay, go ahead and chew it up and spit it out. or tell me places that really should be added: Alison on Dominick Aquagrill Aquavit Artisanal Bayard's Bid Blue Hill Café Boulud Carlyle Cello Chanterelle City Hall Craft Daniel dB Bistro Moderne Eleven Madison Park Felidia Fleur de Sel Gotham Bar & Grill Gramercy Tavern Ilo Jarnac Jean-Georges JoJo Kuruma Zushi L'Absinthe La Caravelle La Cote Basque La Grenouille La Lunchonette Le Cirque Le Gigot Les Halles Lespinasse Lutece March Mesa Grill Montrachet Oceana Patria Picholine San Domenico Sushisay Tabla Toqueville Union Pacific Verbena Veritas Zoe

Don't be too hasty. Reese's Pieces are a popular and not unpleasant confectionary item here in the States - fairly salty peanut butter coated in chocolate. And this morning I ate a McVitie's chocolate biscuit for breakfast; essentially a lightly salted digestive biscuit, with a chocolate topping. This combo can work.

My father rarely assisted with cleaning the kitchen, but I did see him once pick up a used teabag, thinking it was a Brillo pad, and start scrubbing a saucepan with it. Very amusing. I have decided I am living at too fast a pace. Do you know, I never even stop to think about whether one paper towel is better than another? Now, have you thought of having an e-gullet paper towel testing - like the wine tasting. The co-ordinators could list six brands of paper towels, and we could all go away, compare them, and come back with notes. It will be less expensive than the wine tasting, too. (Edited by Wilfrid at 2:14 pm on Jan. 21, 2002)

Any chance of a separate board for Cleaning? So us grubby ones can avoid it?

While trying not to repeat any of the excellent discussion on the thread, I just wanted to add my perspective, having finally dined there. First, the notion that the menu is difficult is totally absurd. It's one piece of paper, with dishes clearly shown as appetizers, main courses and sides. Unfortunately, such has been the media fuss over the menu, that the staff now baby-talk you through it. I had a little lecture on "proteins" from the waiter, which I will cut short next time. The stacks of tasting menus, wine pairings, cartes and specials which you get at many other restaurants are much harder work. Second, I thought the food was fantastically good. The thick slices of rabbit ballotine - a moist, oregano-flavoured, boned saddle, stuffed with the liver, and served with a tiny but intense jelly of the stock - was some of the best charcuterie I've had in New York. The only disappointment were some alleged pommes boulangere which turned out to be whole finglering potatoes, heavily larded and greasy. Third, I found the mode of service to be tedious, problematic and gimmicky. Every item is individually dished, and comes with its own serving fork/spoon. The table is quickly cluttered beyond belief, but the real problem is that you are expected to serve yourself onto a stone cold plate, meaning that the food (not too hot when it arrived) is chilled before you can eat it. By the time I had worked my way through a dessert with sauce, ice cream and pain perdu all on separate plates, I was exhausted. It was like eating at a buffet. Which brings me to the historical element in the thread above. I did indeed find something very old-fashioned about Craft. Buffet service started to go out of fashion in restaurants back in the 1880s, precisely because the hot food never got eaten hot, and diners ended up with a chaotic mixture on their plates. Craft are creating miscrocosm buffets on each table. I guess it promotes sharing, but I never have too much problem sharing pre-plated food, especially desserts. The food was so good that I will definitely go back. I plan, next time, to order charcuterie/shellfish, meat and one vegetable, then cheese. This will minimise the problems of the service, and will create a dinner which would not have looked particularly strange to Escoffier, Curnonsky or AJ Liebling! I will start a separate thread on cold food, which is really starting to get me down.

How worried should one realistically be in New York about mice and roaches? I live in a first floor apartment, and we periodically get visited by a roach or two and have to chase them away with sprays. Currently I have one really annoying, noisy mouse, whose days are numbered. Yet my Beloved Other Half has prohibited us from dining at a local Chinese restaurant because a roach showed up on the table? And I being unnecessarily gloomy when I say it's safe to assume that most New York kitchens have a roach or two?

I went to the Tupelo Grill, just around the corner from the station, but that was a couple of years ago. It was run by the same people who run Tapika up on Eighth Avenue. They did seafood and steaks perfectly adequately. I remember a nice plateau of mixed seafood. It might be worth trying to check a more recent review. I never went back because it was pretty empty, and it's not an area I would normally think of as a dining destination. Come to think of it, we went because My Beloved was doing English classes in the area.

The hypothalamus of a veal calf must weigh about an ounce - it's a tiny centre within the brain - so I think people are just getting their words mixed up. A pancreas definitely is a sweetbread, however, but for some reason pig's sweetbreads don't seem to be too popular.