Felonius

Hesser hits the mark with this comment.....

A groundbreaking restaurant in its day. Still it's a place with lovely service, a cozy (if a bit long in the tooth) atmosphere, and one of the best lists of white Burgundy in the USA - for the very very few who can afford to pay restaurant prices for grand cru Burgundies. Otherwise, I'd say the food is not up to par by current NYC standards. I haven't dined there in two years for a reason. Their prices put them in a range where I don't believe they belong in terms of food (i.e. Veritas, Cafe Boulud, Mix, L'Impero, Blue Hill, etc.). Given the competition, I see no reason to dine there other than the wine list. I'd be curious to know who their regulars are these days, outside of Tribeca neighbors with deep pockets.

Mr Bourdain, thank for the tip about Le Veau D'Or. Went there for lunch last week and it was a great experience. Robert (the proprietor) and a regular customer regaled me with many amusing stories and the food was a bargain for $20. I had the celery remoulade, hanger steak with shallot butter and frites, and a toasted almond and caramel crepe with ice cream. I love traveling in the time warp every so often, and for this reason I will miss Lutece. For those of you with similar inclinations, or just seeking a deal on a three course French bistro menu in midtown, Le Veau D'Or is worth a visit. Just don't tell too many people.....

1020 Lexington is one of a handful of "cigar bars" that are exempt from the smoking ban. I don't know the exact details, but I heard that establishments that could show that more than 50% of their profits came from tobacco sales were given a special exemption. Apparently there are maybe 5-10 places currently operating under this exemption. I find it hard to believe that a place like 1020 Lex that charges $10 or more for a well drink could ever sell enough cigars to qualify. I'd bet this was more a secret handshake deal done by Guliani (who is a cigar smoker) to ensure that he and a few of his supporters still had a place to light up a stogie in NYC. I am not a heavy smoker, but do enjoy a cigarette or cigar with a drink now and then. I've become a fan of the smoking ban in practice (though perhaps not in theory), as it certainly makes for a better environment for the majority of people out and about in NYC. However, I do wish there were a few more places where one could have the option of a smoke with a good martini. The fact that so many outdoor areas (i.e. balconies or sidewalk areas with awnings) and rooms in private clubs where no employees are present are included in the smoking ban is draconian, unecessary, and rather ridiculous in my humble opinion.

I was at 1020 Lexington (aka "Bar and Books") and decided to have a smoke. When I got my check, there was an additional 5 dollar "tobacco charge" added to the bill! I've been to this place many times before and never heard of this. Is this something that the establishment chooses to boost profits, or some other tax imposed by Bloomberg? Either way, I think it's ridiculous and won't be going back to 1020. Only in NYC would I have to pay 15 dollars plus tax and tip for one cigarette and a glass of well scotch.

The fact that these restaurant workers can now only smoke outside during shift breaks may have something to do with it....

Ok, so can anyone tell me where this Veau D'Or place is on 60th? I love a good trip through the culinary time warp every now and then.

I was interested in trying some of the places mentioned in this thread that I've never visited. So I recently had dinner at Jarnac. The food was decent, but nothing special by NYC standards. Certainly a cut above a place like Jardin Bistro, but also more expensive. There were a few classics on the menu (roast chicken, cassoulet) though the menu was not as much of a classic bistro/french menu as at places like Les Halles or Balthazar. The menu was also fairly limited, and I wouldn't be surprised if it changed often. I don't put any stock in Zagat's, and Jarnac's food score of 24 in Zagat confirms my skepticism. I would have rated it more around 19 or 20 with a place like @SQC scoring a recent 19. While the food didn't blow me away, I loved the ambience of room and service could not have been friendlier. My date and I were also able to walk in a get a good table at 8:30 pm without any hassle. The chef came out to each table to greet the diners and make sure everyone was satisfied with their meal. Overall, it was a very pleasant experience. Jarnac isn't a place I'd frequent, as it's too expensive for everyday meals and not quite exciting enough to compete with my urge to spend a few more bucks and go to a place like Cafe Boulud or Veritas. Still, I'd return on a date just for the fine service and charming atmosphere.

Haven't been in a while, but used to go frequently. I always thought the food was decent, and a reasonable value given the setting and the neighborhood. It's particularly nice in fair weather when one can dine al fresco out front. They must be doing something right, because it's one of the few restaurants in this neighborhood that has remained popular over the years. I can remember dining there during a previous stay in NYC back in the late 80's. If you're in the neighborhood I'd certainly give it a try. I wouldn't say it was a destination restaurant for folks outside of the UWS though.

I would think the definition is subjective and relative. I think it's territorially relative, but suspect its also subjectively relative and different for each person, but it's hard to communicate without some broad definitions. Towards that end, I offered my idea of what "fine" dining or "fine dining" might be in Manhattan. We need to understand that even the four star rating is going to be subjective. We all won't agree on whether JG or any other restaurant deserves that rating. We can debate whether the category of fine dining includes both Babbo and JG or just JG. I think fine dining has to encompass more than just food. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion even as to whether Babbo or JG has better or finer food, but I think JG aims at being a "finer" restaurant, albeit, not necessarily a better restaurant for everyone. My point here is that I believe JG is seen as operating in a different plane than the other three restaurants in some ways, but of course that's subject to personal opinion and debate. I would definitely categorize Babbo and Gotham Bar and Grill as "fine dining". JG may be considered in a slightly higher tier in terms of ratings, but the other two could hold their own against the best fine dining restaurants in any city in the US. If my memory serves me correctly, I've never had a meal in the US outside of San Francisco or perhaps Chicago that surpassed my cumulative experiences at JG, Gotham or Babbo. I haven't been to Gotham B&G in a while, but I have always considered it a place that strives to be in the top tier of NYC in terms of food, ambience service and price structure. Whether or not it is rated with as many stars as JG doesn't change its target market. Babbo is indeed a bit more casual and less expensive than JG, but I have no doubt that they see themselves as batting for the culinary home run as well. While I think the food at JG holds its own amongst the four stars in NYC, Daniel, Le Bernardin, ADNY and Lespinasse (RIP) have provided a higher overall level of consistent service quality in my experience. For that reason I decided two years ago to stick with lunch at JG. The food and service are often better than at dinner and the price is about half. In a much more extreme example, I gave up dining at Bouley altogether because I had too many 3-4 star meals there with 1 star service.

These restaurants are all booked nearly solid, but Fridays and Saturdays are incrementally worse in my opinion. I suspect it may have something to do with more tables being full right at the begining of service, people lingering longer over a weekend "special" dinner, less cancellations, etc. I think the kitchen just gets harder hit for longer on those nights, and there is more of a rush to get plates out and turn the early tables for the 2nd and third wave of reservations. Whatever the cause, my worst meals and service have nearly always occurred on Friday or Saturday night, as have most problems with being seated on time for a reservation. This has been apparent at nearly every high end restaurant I frequent. I think part of it also has to do with overbooking on those nights. I think most restaurants are guilty of this practice, with the exception of a place like ADNY, where tables aren't turned during the course of the evening.

Another great meal at Veritas last night. The lobster salad with english peas has returned to the menu, and it was every bit as good as I remember it being two years ago. I love this dish, and think it's one of the best lobster preparations I've ever had. Simple, light and refreshing - allowing the full flavor of the perfectly cooked lobster to hold its own. I had the short ribs again. Couldn't resist as they are fantastic. Some great wines by the glass, including a super Weissburgunder Pinot Blanc by the glass ($8) from Austria, that was a nice complement to the lobster. We also tried a glass of Calera Pinot Noir ($8), one of my favorite inexpensive California Pinots. These were followed by a half bottle of Bertagna Vougeot "Clos de la Perriere" 1er Cru 1999, Burgundy ($50). This was a lovely and elegant pinot noir, more complex and sophisticated than the Calera, and a bargain considering a full bottle of this wine would usualy fetch $150-200 on most NYC wine lists. For dessert we tried a 1986 Sauternes and a more forward Alsatian (pinot gris?) late harvest from Trimbach. Both were excellent, though I thought the Trimbach was the better of the two. Service was perfect - friendly, low key and attentive. The bartender allowed us to taste several wines before making our decisions by the glass. I can't recommend this place highly enough. If you're not up for a huge meal, I recommend just sitting at the bar and ordering a few things a la carte. In my opinion, it's the perfect place to have superb food and wine without the attitude or hoopla of other restaurants in this league in NYC.

Docsonz, sorry to hear about the birthday dinner gone awry. From the date of your post, I assume you dined there on Saturday night. For what it's worth, I've had a string of disappointing experiences in terms of food and service at many of NYC's top restaurants (i.e. Daniel, Jean Georges, Bouley to name a few) on Saturday nights. It's gotten to the point that I avoid these places on weekends whenever possible. I'd be willing to bet that Jean Georges on a Tuesday night or any weekday lunch would have been a superior experience. One could argue that a true 4-star establishment should be able to handle the weekend rush with aplomb, but I have found this to be more of a theory than a reality in NYC. I've never found the service at Jean Georges to be quite as professional as that at a place like Daniel or Le Bernardin. In my experience, the JG waitstaff often tend to be younger and sometimes less knowledgeable about fine dining service. Some of them have struck me as being more of the actor/waiter variety than people devoted to the restaurant business as a career. Also, though I live nearby and have dined at JG countless times, no one at the front desk has ever seemed to recognize me or greet me as a regular customer. In contrast, the staff at the few other high end NYC places I frequent never fail to recognize me, call me by name, and treat me as if I were and old friend joining them for dinner. So, as much as I like the food at Jean Georges, it's not a place for which I hold any loyalty or real affection. If better options arrive on the West Side (and it appears they have just across the street!), I will likely wave a pleasant goodbye to Fonzy and the Shark and head to another beach.....

Come to think of it, I only considered myself to be in the "younger" category because I'm often the youngest person in the dining room at many of my favorite places. So I probably am hanging out with the "stodgy" folk more than I care to admit! There aren't all that many people in their twenties I know who have reached a point in their careers where they can afford to regularly dine at places like Daniel or Jean Georges. I suspect this skews the age group of their clientele upwards quite a bit. And as for the trust fund rebels, they're probably more likely to head to a place like Bond Street or Tao (ouch!) for a variety of reasons that are probably too off topic to deserve elaboration on this thread.

I am one of the people in the latter category you mention, and so are many of my friends. If I'm spending a big chunk of my hard-earned dollars on a meal, the food and service trump everything else. I actually tend to avoid the new "scene" places, as I don't like dealing with the hassles of fighting for a table and the quality/service glitches that often plague new restaurants. I don't think that the people chasing the scene are necessarily the same ones chasing really great high end food in NYC. I also don't think they matter as much for a restaurant's survival. I know from personal experience that the real backbone of clientele for a place like Daniel or Cafe Boulud comes from regulars who are seeking consistent food and service. Once the culinary thrillseekers have moved on to the Next Big Thing, earning a loyal group of regulars through consistent excellence is the only means for long-term survival in the top tier.

Interesting. I'm only 35 and I've never considered Jean-Georges to be in the "old and stodgy" category. Places like Lutece, La Cote Basque and La Grenouille are the stodgy archetypes (probably a major reason the first two are now closed). ADNY, Daniel, Le Bernardin and Cafe Boulud I certainly see as somewhat older and stodgy - though I love all three for their food and service. To me Jean Georges has always seemed the least stodgy of the NYC top tier, probably due to the modern architecture/decor and the slightly more adventurous cuisine. I'd take younger dates to a place like Jean Georges (especially the more casual Nougatine side), Mix or DB Bistro before tackling the others listed above.

Sorry I have yet to make it out. I've been out of town for several weeks, and unfortunately this Friday night isn't going to work. And as for that video clip from DiFara's - OH MY GAWWDD!!! That woman may be the single most annoying person I've ever witnessed on television. She's so in love with her bimbette self as she struts around on camera, she doesn't bother to pass along any useful insights about DiFara's. Do they actually pay these local newspeople for this crap? Stick a fork in her, she's done!!!! Makes me glad I permanently unplugged my TV years ago.

Speaking of UWS, has anyone tried "Carne", the steakhouse on Bway and 105?

I too like the open and airy feeling of the room. It's modern style feels less stuffy than a place like Daniel or Le Bernardin. I also agree with Fat Guy about the food losing some of its inventiveness. It seems to me that during the four years I've been dining at JG, the menu has remained pretty much the same. There are the old standards such as the scallops with raisin caper emulsion, and then a larger list of items that seem to rotate in and out seasonally, only to reappear next year. I don't eat there often enough to say this definitively, only that it does seem the same themes and ingredient combinations are being recycled, rather than new culinary horizons being explored.

Sorry, but I didn't write down the names of any of the cheeses. I dined at Celeste last night, but Carmine left just prior to my arrival. I didn't do another cheese tasting, since I'd rather do this when Carmine is around to make the selections. I'll try to find out the name of the Epoisse-like cheese next time I'm there.

Recent meals I've had at Jean-Georges were fantastic, and I'd rate it as one of the top restaurants in NYC. Both the main dining room and Nougatine are consistently packed for lunch and dinner, and it appears that the demand for his cuisine is still strong. Perhaps the menu is less avante garde than it used to be ten years ago, but it's still damn good stuff! Whether it will drop off as a result of new competition across the street at the Time Warner center remains to be seen. I've never been to any of JG's other restaurants. Are Jo Jo and/or Vong worthy contenders at their price points?

I don't really understand this comparison either. "Cool" is cleary not a leading factor on your proposed list anyway. Places like La Goulue are only considered cool by women who still think George Hamilton is a hottie, and Cafe Un Deux Trois is probably cool if you just got off the bus at the Port Authority from Des Moines, but...... Haven't eaten at Le Pere Pinard in about six months, but upon my last visit had decent food at very reasonable prices. And yes, I though the vibe was kinda cool.

Jgould, I must say I disagree somewhat with your thoughts on these UES bistros. Yes, le Bilboquet is full of Europeans and want-to-be's, but so is La Goulue! I've dined at both of these places countless times, and about the only difference in the clientele is a 20-30 year age gap (and maybe a zero or two in the bank account, but at that level, what's the difference?). No serious gastronome I know goes to La Goulue for the food. It's all about being seen there, showing off your new facelift, third wife who's 30 years younger, or your 15 carat yellow diamond ring from Graff. Yes it's a rather pretty dining room, but in that price range there are numerous restaurants that blow it away in terms of food. I go because I like the atmosphere at certain times, and enjoy the people watching (some of the most amusing in NYC), and that's it. I've never had a particularly good meal there in terms of food, and I'd say my average check for a course or two and a glass of wine is about $60. That's not far off from places like nearby Cafe Boulud, which offers some of the best French food in the USA. While I haven't eaten at Orsay nearly as much as these other two, the food I've had there has been about as good as La Goulue but less expensive if I remember correctly. And I do think that Le Jardin Bistro is worth a trip for those who are price conscious. There one can eat outside in a pleasant garden, dine on similar food to La Goulue, and walk out with a bill that's 50% less. In my mind, that's worth the trip when I've got the time.

For what it's worth, here's my brief take on the places I've visited in the past year. Ferrier - more about the people watching scene than the food. If I remember correctly the prices weren't too bad for the neighborhood. I usually go for lunch and get the fruits de mer salad, which I like. Haven't had much else on the menu for a while, so hard to give much of a review. La Goulue - this place is even more of a "scene to be seen in" thing than Ferrier. Quite expensive for the quality of the food offered, but a very attractive dining room made even better in the Spring/Summer due to the open front. Most of the crowd seems to be multi-millionaire upper East siders, Europeans, and ladies who lunch. My usual pick for food is the duck confit salad. A good traditional confit, though the portion is rather puny. Other French bistro items are usually competently done, but nothing special. Many of the staff here are French, and the ladies who lunch often gossip/flirt with them in French. Orsay - in my opinion, better food in general than La Goulue and Ferrier, at a price point in between the two. Last time I went I had some sort of special pizza with prosciutto and white truffle oil that was sublime. Other French standards are usualy pretty good. Still a bit expensive, but given the neighborhood that's to be expected. Nice bistro atmosphere but can be very loud at peak times. Le Pere Pinard - only been twice but had pretty good food. I really like the atmosphere, laid back and fun. Sometimes they have a DJ spinning tunes. This is a much "younger" place than the UES venues you've mentioned, and a good place to take a first date. If I remember correctly, it's fairly inexpensive by NYC standards, but again this is not unusual given the neighborhood. Les Halles - a regular destination for me in NYC. I go for the hanger steak with frites, which I think is one of the better renditions of this classic in the city. The nice shallot/red wine reduction served on the side adds an extra element to the well-executed steak frites. It's also a good deal at something like $18.00. The wine list is one of the more interesting small French lists in the city, with many offerings by the glass. Wine markup is extremely reasonable by NYC standards, and many truly nice bottles can be had for under $45. The place is usually very crowded and noisy, and conversation can be difficult at peak hours. Though I usualy stick with the steak, other traditional French dishes I've had there have been good. Given the price/quality ratio, I think this is one of the best "French bistro" options in NYC. Cafe Luxembourg - Attractive dining room, medium to high prices, average to below average food. I live a few blocks away and have had enough disappointing meals to have given up on it. The only reason I'd go is if you need a decent post-theater option within walking distance of Lincoln Center, as Cafe Lux serves later than most places in the vicinity. Definitely not a spot I'd travel any distance for. I've never seen a French person here dining or working. They wouldn't put up with the food! Other places in a similar vein in the city that I think are worth a try: Le Jardin Bistro (Cleveland Place between Kenmare and Spring St.) - inexpensive French bistro with good versions of the classics. Nice steak frites. A very pleasant garden out back with al fresco dining in season is reasong to dine here alone. I often try this place when I need a last minute reservation, as they can usually offer a table inside, even if the garden is full. Wine list is limited but inexpensive. This is one of the few places on your list that I travel to as a destination. There are real French people behind the bar and in the kitchen here. Le Bilboquet (63rd between Park and Madison) - If you're looking for people watching on the UES, this is cheaper and more fun than La Goulue. Food is usually decent, and I like the steak frites (although here it is a sirloin au poivre rather than the classic hanger steak). Very small so it can be hard to get a table. Usually it's full of French expats and aging models, and the staff is mostly French. Balthazar and Pastis - Expensive and hard to get a table at peak times, but both do quality renditions of many French bistro classics. As much as I hate to admit it, these trendy see-and-be-seen restaurants offer better French bistro food than much of the competition in NYC. JGould, you may want to see if you can rename this thread with a more specific title such as "Rating French Bistros in NYC" (is it possible to do that on this system?). That way more people with specific knowledge may post, and others in the future will have any easier time searching for relevant info.

Admin: threads merged. I realize there's already a thread about Celeste, but I'd like to start another based on the amazing cheeses I tried there last night. I've eaten at Celeste six times now and believe it offers one of the best food values on the upper West side. Great homemade pastas (try the ravioli with ricotta and spinach or the tagliatelli with sheep's milk cheese, shrimp and cabbage) for under $10 a plate. Last night, Carmine (the owner) dropped by my table and convinced me to order a cheese tasting. Little did I know what I was in for! After dinner, we were brought a tasting course of perhaps 15 cheeses, and I asked the waiter if Carmine would be willing to tell us a bit about them. Carmine sat down at our table and spent the next 30 minutes explaining each cheese in incredible detail. He said that he has over 50 cheeses in his inventory, and ages many of them himself in Italy. I was having too much fun at this point to take notes, so I can only offer a few impressions of my favorite cheeses as follows: A goat cheese with a juniper and ash crust - incredibly creamy with just enough earthy bite to it. A cheese that tasted like a French Epoisse - this was the best cheese I've ever tasted in NYC. A goat cheese that was aged in special pits dug in the ground - Carmine went into an elaborate description of how this cheese was aged in these pits (something to do with religious holidays, clay, cement, straw, and all sorts of tradition - I wish I could remember!). Whatever these people are doing, they're doing a damn good job of it! This was a hard cheese with a texture and flavor a bit reminiscent of Ossau-Iraty to me. Fantastic flavor. All of the cheeses were excellent and many were accompanied with homemade relishes (bitter orange gelee, quince puree, rhubarb compote, etc.) individually conceived as a complement to a particular cheese. I thought the relishes were a great addition to the cheese. I must say I was completely unprepared for such an amazing cheese tasting. All of the cheeses were fantastic, with full flavors usually only found at the source in France and Italy. Carmine's obvious passion for fine cheese and his encyclopedic knowledge on the topic made the experience educational as well as fun. I recommend that any serious cheese-aholics make a pilgrimmage to Celeste (Amsterdam and 85-86th) and ask Carmine to bring them the full cheese tasting menu. Just be sure to arrive early or late, as at prime time there is usually a long wait, and they do not take reservations.