e_monster

I go back and forth between using oil and not. It could be my imagination but I think I prefer the non-oil method -- since I only have one burner that has enough BTUs to do this, I haven't been able to A/B the results. Clean-up (at least with my pans) is a little easier if I don't use any oil. Oil does ensure that more of the meat will come into contact with the heat but you don't want it in the pan too long before you add the meat (since the pan will be above the smoking point of all the oils that I know of) and yet it does need to be in there long enough to come up to temperature. Nathan, have you experimented with oil/vs. no-oil for crust formation at high temps?

45 seconds in a truly blazing hot pan should be adequate to getting a nice dark tasty crust. It won't be as thick as if you cooked it in a hot pan for minutes per side but it should be nice and satisfying -- if the meat is actually coming into direct contact with the pan and it is hot enough. There are a few things that you can do to troubleshoot: 1) Make sure to dry off the steak with paper towels before searing. Water is your enemy. (If there is too much moisture the steam will be keeping the surface of the pan from making direct contact with the pan) 2) Make sure that the pan is super hot -- some burners don't have enough BTU to get a pan really hot and keep it there. If the pan is much larger than the burner it may be dissipating heat and not get as hot as you need (someone correct me with the right numbers -- but I think you probably need more than 700 degrees Fahrenheit for the sort of quick crust formation we are talking about and probably higher is better). So, you might want to try a slightly smaller pan and leave it on the burner longer 3) If you aren't already doing so, press the meat into the pan with the back of a metal spatula to make sure that the meat is coming into contact with the pan. You will only get crust where the meat actually makes contact when doing such a quick sear. You might experiment with and without the butter/oil. I have tried it both ways and the result is somewhat different. When oil comes into contact with a pan this hot it can result in a coating (due to polymerization????) that is a little bit of a pain to remove. If none of this helps, you might want to do a test steak and leave it in the pan until a crust you like does form and see how long it takes and how far the heat penetrates. (My stove, btw, only has one burner that gets hot enough to do this adequately).

Most creme brulee torches are butane. I use a propane torch for searing from time to time and there is no taste from the gas. Also, creme brulee torches are not nearly powerful enough to do a decent sear in a decent amount of time. (A lot of chefs don't even consider them adequate for creme brulee). I prefer using a pan to MY propane torch for searing because my propane torch has a pencil flame and so it takes a much longer time to sear a large piece of meat. I think that most people that report off-tastes when using a torch either are using butane and/or the torch is not burning all the gas that is coming out. Quite a few top-notch restaurants use propane torches. If anyone has a torch recommendation (that isn't too expensive), I'd love to hear it.

Tender cuts don't need to be cooked at higher temperatures -- cook them at whatever temperature gives you the 'doneness' you like. For tender cuts, you are only cooking sous-vide to bring the meat up to temperature. There is no need to keep it in the bath longer -- although no harm is done as long as the meat isn't left in so long that it becomes too soft. For searing, I recommend letting the pan sit on a high burner for 10 minutes -- which will give you a pan that is over 700 degrees -- and you only need to sear for about 30 to 45 seconds per side to form a nice crust. (Of course, you can't use a coated pan when using temperatures this high).

It isn't so surprising -- not all aromatic herbs are equally aromatic. Dill is much less aromatic than rosemary and juniper berries (at least fresh ones) and even tarragon. I, too, have found that dill is pretty subtle. With rosemary, i also find that toasting it before using it for sous-vide tames it a little bit. As others have mentioned roasted garlic is not all that 'garlicky' (for want of a better word). For a couple of years I avoided using raw garlic sous-vide because so many people reported bad results and I relied on garlic powder. A few months ago, I decided to explore using raw garlic and found that if you use the right amount and balance it with some acid and oil in the bag that you can get a nice garlic flavor that is neither too intense or too raw. I am using this with chicken when I cook it in the 140F to 155F range (lately the temperature is determined by how quickly I want the chicken to be ready). I haven't tried this at lower temperatures -- I suspect that the garlic may mellow a little bit more at these temps than at lower temps. The amounts will vary on the particular garlic that you have and your taste. Here is what I do. I use a garlic press and press a medium-sized clove into a tablespoon or two of olive oil. I add a little salt and the juice of 1/4 to 1/2 of a meyer lemon (for this use I am preferring meyer lemons to standard lemons) and about 1/4 to 1/2 cap of liquid smoke. I use this amount for two boneless/skinless breasts or 4 thighs. At 155F, I cook them for an hour or so. At lower temps, I cook longer to make sure they are pasteurized.

Given the Nathan's thoroughness and intelligence, I feel pretty confident that his statements were based on thorough research and experimentation and were not made without a pretty strong basis.

For my Presto Multicooker (which is something like 20 years old). I use P 180 I 700 D 40 and it is rock stable. And the natural convection keeps the temperature is quite uniform as long as there is room for the water to circulate. One doesn't need an immersion circulator for pretty even distribution of the temperature. The multicooker I use or a rice cooker or a hot plate (pretty much anything where the heat source is coming from the bottom) creates convection currents that distribute the heat pretty efficiently as long as the food provides space for the convection currents. At least once the water has come up to temperature. For things that heat from the side like some (all? crockpots) a $5 airpump is more than adequate as long as there is room for the water to circulate. (Btw, I am not saying that an immersion circulator would not be more convenient and more scalable -- they are obviously great in that respect)

What you will get is convenience. If your monetary situation is such that several hundred dollars is of little consequence, upgrade. If a few hundred dollars seems like real money, then spend it elsewhere. With few exceptions, the additional accuracy won't be noticeable in outcome. But the more expensive units are very convenient and don't need the same sort of fiddling with settings. Now that I have settings for a tabletop roaster (when I need a large volume bath) and presto multicooker that are stable, I personally don't have a need to upgrade the system. I can do eggs and salmon mi-cuit. So, I my setup isn't limiting me. If I had several hundred extra dollars I personally would use it to upgrade my pans. (The tabletop roaster can be found new for around $40 and can often be found in thrift stores). But your situation may be different. Convenience certainly has its value.

Any model that has the Pulse option should work well. I have been happy with mine. With a little attention, sealing bags with liquid has not been a problem.

Other budget heating devices to consider: Tabletop roasters are inexpensive ($30 to $45 new and pretty easy to find in thrift stores even cheaper) and big enough to do large cuts like whole briskets and racks for ribs. They can take a little experimentation to get the settings just right. I have a tabletop roaster that we use for big cuts or when cooking a lot of food. And we have a Presto Multicooker which is 6 or 7 liters for doing things like a couple of steaks or a couple of chicken breasts). It was also around $25.

It may largely be a matter of personal taste as to what you prefer. It is possible that the sourcing of the meat would make a difference. But I suspect that it is mostly a matter of personal preference. Which will be true of most of the parameters. My recommendation is to do one for 12 hours and sample it and put it back in the bath if it isn't tender enough. I have had pretty similar results tenderness-wise with both very high-quality and medium-quality meat.

Doug, How much confidence do you have that the person meant "safe" to be "won't melt" versus "won't leach chemicals"? And that the person would be forthcoming about the latter issue? It it wasn't certified for cooking, I wonder if they have tested the leaching?

Btw, Ziploc bags (and most cling wrap) are not approved or tested for cooking food in. I would be concerned about the chemicals leaching into the food. Especially, if you eat sous vide cooking with any frequency. Temperature increases the leaching rate -- so marinating/brining in the fridge is different from cooking -- even at sous vide temperatures. (Especially if the food is going to be in the bath for a long time).

Tri-tip (which is also called bottom sirloin in many parts of the country -- because that is really what it is) is a lot more tender than chuck and I find that 24 hours is too long -- after 24 hours I find the texture a bit too soft -- not quite mushy but well-beyond fork tender). If I jaccard it, I cook it for 5 to 7 hours. If I don't jaccard it, I cook it for 10 to 12 hours -- but you can get away with less time. Anyway that's my take. If you do a search in this thread you will find a number of posts (mostly from me) about tri-tip. Oh, and it definitely benefits from a short sear in a VERY hot pan or with a blow torch just before serving and slicing.

If you have the sous-vide magic equipment and the rice cooker, you can use them to do a traditional braise. Braising is a great technique and a great way to develop certain flavors. So, if you like the end result, I would simply do it in the rice cooker and let the PID control the temperature of the braise. No need to translate your recipes to sous-vide.

Are you sure that the smell that leaks into the water isn't the result of tiny droplets pulled out of the bag when vacuuming. Since there are a couple of inches between the seal and the end of the bag, I have always assumed that the smell is the result of a small amount of liquid escaping when the bag is sealed. I have never had a sour smell when sous-viding but I do often smell whatever herbs or marinade are in the bag -- even on occasions where trapped air in the bag expanded quite a bit -- enough to know that the bag was still airtight since squeezing the bag did not cause any of the trapped air to be expelled. Anyway that is my guess -- and it is as likely to occur with bags that have never been frozen as those that have been which would rule out ice crystals as the culprit.

Mike, Your earlier claim that the temperatures you posted are a universally accepted standard is simply not true. I am having difficulty finding any chefs I admire who use the ranges that you posted. If that is how you like your meat, that is great. It is (as Nathan has mentioned) subjective and a matter of taste. Photographs of meat at various temperatures is hardly proof of anything. I have a lot of photographs of cooked meat (I have posted quite a few on this site), but they hardly prove anything. I don't see you saying "e-monster posted a picture of meat that was cooked to 133F and it sure looks like it is in the medium-rare to medium range". Lighting conditions, etc. have a lot of impact on the appearance -- even if the person taking the picture does not have a vested interest in making the food look appetizing. The Certified Angus Beef association does has a vested interest in making the food look appealing. With PhotoShop, it is easy to adjust the color content of images. I have a friend that is a commercial food photographer...let's just say that what you see in pictures is not necessarily an accurate depiction of reality. A lot of work goes into making the food look like they want it to for the picture -- and there is no guarantee that to get the picture of rare meat that it was cooked to the temperature in their tables. But that is really neither here nor there. I will take the word of a host of food experts over pictures or a beef grower's organization -- especially since the word of those experts is completely consistent with my experience. I cook meat to 129F to 133F a lot -- I have never had a steak come out of a 129F bath that would be considered rare by more than a few people. The tri-tip that I cook to 133F comes out with a degree of doneness such that the people to whom I have served it (many of whom have considerable experience eating food from world-class chefs like Grant Achatz and Thomas Keller) have disagreed with each other about whether it could still be called medium-rare or whether it is approaching medium. As Nathan pointed out, any Google search will show that there is no objective answer, even among professionals, as to what precise temperature "rare" or "medium-rare" is. However, there is enough consensus among the top flight chefs of our generation, that there is a range of temperatures that covers what most of them would consider rare, medium-rare etc. The temps you posted are considerably higher than that range of temps. Would you consider Harold McGee to be a reasonable expert? He is considered by many professionals to be one of the most knowledgeable experts on the science of food. There is a table in his book "On Food and Cooking" on doneness. The temperatures he mentions are in agreement with what most of us have said. He specifically mentions in the table that the 'USDA" standard designations are on the order of 20 degrees fahrenheit higher than that used by most chefs. Because there is no precise definition, he provides ranges -- and I haven't found a recipe by a contemporary chef I respect whose definition falls more than a few degrees outside these ranges. Rare - 120 to 130F Medium Rare - 130 to 135F etc... That being said, it is largely a matter of taste. You are entitled to whatever idea of doneness you like. It is simply wrong, however, to say that the Certified Angus Beef's (or the USDA's) doneness tables are a universally accepted standard -- especially since they are not very close to the ranges accepted by the leading contemporary chefs. (p.s. Apologies if this is not my most concise or clearly written post -- that was a lot more words than I intended to write - and I am not sure that my point came across)

Mike, Did you mis-type those temperatures? If not, your rareness scale is very different from mine. Did you mean 51C for rare, perhaps? 61C is 142F which is much hotter than rare (which is somewhere in the mid 120s). If I ordered a steak and got one cooked to 142F, I would send it back and would probably not return as a diner. I think that most people would consider anything over about 133F or 56C to be heading into medium range for beef. With 129 to 133 (or so) to be medium rare and rare to medium rare in the 51C (124F) to 53C range.

SL is right on about having put it in the hot oven after the meat came out of the bag. There are a few other things that I have found with brisket: 1) 48 hours at that temp vs. 36 or 40 makes a difference in tendering the meat -- it should be fork tender but not mushy or falling apart 2) The marbling makes a huge amount of difference. When I cook it, it spends no time in the oven, it gets blasted with a propane torch to brown the outside -- but the interior is pink pink pink. The first few times that we did brisket, we were not impressed because the meat came out as you described (although pink inside and now well-done). On both occasions, we were using the "flat" part of a brisket that had almost no interior marbling. I have found that the "flat" can have marbling -- but you may have to go to a couple of butchers before you find it. For the next couple of experiments, we did a whole brisket and found that the more marbling there was in the brisket, the better it was. When cooking the whole briskets, one end was a bit too fatty (but made delicious hash the next day when diced and sauteed with potatoes and onions till browned) and the other end a bit to dense/dry but the middle section was delicious: tender and moist. You may have to hunt down the right piece of meat--the flats of a lot of brisket is very dense with little to no interior marbling -- but you should be able to find some that has marbling. The next time, we are going to get some Wagyu brisket because it has much better marbling even in the flat part than most of the briskets from local butchers.

Chaka's mmm sauce is a vinegar and soy based marinade. I think you could use something like: equal parts soy sauce and white vinegar plus some water or oil and small amount of dried powdered mustard and onion or garlic powder. The bbq sauce that I use is tomato-based and somewhat sweet (I would see a sweetness like molasses rather than white sugar/honey).

The picture doesn't do the meat justice -- it was a much deeper (redder) pink in real life than in the picture. This was grass-fed tri-tip jaccarded and cooked for 6 hours at 133F. My secret sauce was added to the bag before sealing. My wife and neighbors love this and it comes out great every time. I am embarrassed to reveal the recipe for the secret sauce -- it was discovered on a day that I was extremely lazy but has been such a big hit that I am accepting that it is very yummy in spite of how low-brow it is. Secret sauce: 4 tablespoons Chaka's Mmmm Sauce, 4 tablespoons O.T.'s bbq sauce (which is a sweet tomato-based sauce), 1/2 cap liquid smoke. After removing from the bath, the meat is allowed to rest for about 5 minutes and then browned with a propane blow-torch and sliced thin across the grain.

I have had raw short ribs and brisket vaccuum-packed for 3 or 4 months in the freezer and then cooked them for 48 hours at 133F. I have cooked a lot of short ribs for 48 hrs and flat-iron steak for 24 and never once had off-flavors. I don't think the FoodSaver is your culprit -- both a lot of people on this list and even some pros have used FoodSavers for years.

I have had FoodSaved packed meat in the freezer for a year without spoilage and routinely have it in the freezer for 3 or 4 months. I don't think that the FoodSaver is the culprit.

Your measurement would seem to contradict the eariler supposition that natural convection is effective at equalizing temperatures in this kind of vessel. I'd say that a 3.9F/2.2C difference in temperature is significant. ← SL is right. Convection is not doing its thing. In a system that has just natural convection, if the bag is big in relation to the bath AND/OR there isn't enough room both below and to the side, it won't work very well to mix the water. Convection is super-sensitive to the flow dynamics. Robert, it looks like you to use that bubbler.

If that turns out well -- you can try smoking for even just 20 or 30 minutes. I have been really surprised at how much smoke flavor meat has had if I smoked it for as little as 15 or 20 minutes before putting it in the bag. I suspect the reason is that by being trapped in the bag it permeates a bit more deeply into the meat. (And I am a guy who likes my ribs very smoke flavored) The description of the short ribs has me salivating. They sound great. For getting a nice crust, I recommend either using a propane torch or sticking it under the broiler (or using a pan that has been heated on high heat for 10 minutes (should get the pan to over 700 degrees). In a 500 degree oven, it takes long enough for a crust to develop that you will also end up cooking the meat a fair amount by the time the crust develops. The other methods will give you nice browning/crusting without cooking the meat.