Ruby

Steve, I responded because of what you said - I put certain capital letters on your words for emphasis: 1) "Gee, one would think that people would be polite enough to NOT GET INVOLVED in a thread if they don't have anything to contribute to it. 2) I am going to DELETE THIS THREAD and start over. PLEASE DO NOT JOIN IN unless you want to discuss the topic, not your egos." Some of the posts I've started have digressed wildly from my original points and have taken on a new life of their own but I cannot and would not want to tell other posters to not get involved. So much human misery/horror is taking place in this world that sometimes a little humor helps even when it doesn't 'fit' the subject.

Man are you spoiled, Ruby. Have you had tap water in other parts of the country? :) Actually, the worst water I've had locally was at a diner on Staten Island. Euyuck! I won't even try to describe it. Don't know if I'm 'spoiled' or just aware. NYC pipes are ancient even if NY water is supposedly the best in the country. When there's construction in my area, the water really comes out rusty and dirty brown. I've also seen tap water sitting around for ages in pitchers near restaurant service stations and when it's finally poured, it tastes so stale. I'd rather pay for a bottle that's been capped and hasn't gone through a procession of handling in the restaurant. I've also noticed that tap water tastes the best in Chinese restaurants because it's served very cold and replenished often.

Steve, I thought Macrosan 'contributed' to this thread with tongue in cheek humor. It may not have been what you wanted to read but many threads take on many twists and turns. The way I understand it, eGullet does not censor or delete threads like other sites; i.e. Chowhound. Frankly, I don't believe you want to start sounding like Jim Leff, do you? I've found many of your posts interesting but there's no reason IMHO to insult anyone's manners because you happen not to like their humor and tell them to join in or not to join in. eGullet is a free speech zone. Hope you take this in the kind spirit it is meant. :)

I like bottled water (one bottle is enough for 2) because I've seen how the tap water looks when it goes through old pipes or if there's construction in the streets - yucky brown! If I'm going to drop a decent amount of cash anyway at a restaurant, then another $5 or $6 isn't such a big deal. What ya gotta watch is how the waiters keep pouring it - they're pushy just like when they keep refilling the vino. This is a business and I guess it's up to the diner to say 'when' enough is enough. Personally, I put my hand over the wine or water glass when I don't want them to refill it so quickly. Usually a little smile of recognition passes between the waiter/bus server and myself. They know I'm saying 'enough' for now. If you're going to drop anywhere from $50 to $100+ per person for a meal, get a bottle of water and save the New York reservoirs for now. I know it's been said that it takes lots of water to wash water glasses but hopefully the glasses are stockpiled with the dishes.

Oh, I forgot to mention that I've had ribs in hundreds of Chinese restaurants. Don't know how I forgot that.

Steven, if I was given a quarter portion, then I'm certain it was an honest mistake but I still think more sides should be included with the price of ribs. The freebie cole slaw was an afterthought. The sides we did order jacked up the prices more and turned me off Blue Smoke. As the old saying goes, "I'll pay more for more but I won't pay more for less." I've had ribs that were not always in that gloppy sweet sauce you describe. I've had ribs in homes of Black Southern families and I make them myself. I just never thought of ribs being glorified or intellectualized. It will be interesting to see how Blue Smoke evolves with time. I'm sure it will be good but I'm going to wait it out. If the jazz club booked really good jazz or torch singers that would certainly add to the attraction of one stop dining/entertainment.

Steven, I remember ordering the St. Louis ribs because the bartender said they were 'meatier' than the baby backs although she stated the baby backs were considered the 'filet mignon of ribs.' So I ordered the St. Louis ribs and got three ribs. They weren't bad but were a measly portion. Ribs are something I definitely have to be in the mood to have. My younger half-sister's father was black. He was a very cool guy and we all used to go to Harlem in the mid-50s to have chicken & ribs. I don't recall the names of the restaurants. I know Mama went to the Palm Cafe but I think that was more of a nightclub. I never thought about ribs or analyzed the cut, the sauce, etc. They're good or they're not. When I've had ribs over the years, they weren't at upscale places like Blue Smoke. Brothers BBQ, Dallas BBQ, Sylvia's, Pink Teacup, and the ribs were always 'lip smackin' good' and satisfying. Maybe the meat isn't Niman cut but you don't leave hungry or spend lots of money. I've also had ribs in Florida, Louisiana, Illinois...and they've been good too. Once in awhile, I'll get a tough tasting rib but the ratio is about the same as getting a tough hanger steak. Hope this answers your questions, Steve.

Christopher, I usually feel neutral about your posts which is an okay reaction but this time I disagree. Blue Smoke may be an 'infant' restaurant but IMO it wouldn't have gotten so much attention if it hadn't been a Danny Meyer venture to begin with. I live in the Murray Hill area and previously never went to this location to hear jazz but did go to have ribs. The ribs disappointed, the lack of side dishes that are usually included anywhere else, the prices, and the frat boys crowd that was there that night. Yeck. My friend and I were squired to the bar by your 'flumoxed host' and the bar is not conducive to dining - even on ribs and smoked baloney (?). I know NUTHIN from ribs in North Carolina, Texas, Chicago, whatever. I'm a native New Yorker and have had ribs in Harlem, downtown, uptown, East/West Side-you name it and they've been better and at 1/2 the price. Okay, this is an 'infant' restaurant but Mr. Meyer must have known that side dishes such as collard greens, corn, cornbread, potato salad are natural side dishes that go with ribs. All we got was a piddly saucer of cole slaw with 3 itty bitty ribs. And for that we should get up and do a dance? Whoopy doo! No way. As to your 'word of caution' about brand new restaurants: this may hold true for some mom and pop storefront restaurants but, here again, we're talking about a Danny Meyer restaurant and the expectations are much higher.

Yvonne, right on! If the restaurants were that concerned, they'd offer bottled water at 5% above their cost 'as a gesture of concern' about the NYC water shortage. It's just another way of pushing designer water at $5-7 bucks a bottle. This reminds me of a coupon I got in the mail from a clothes shop in SoHo. It said something like: "Because of the downturn in the economy due to the tragic events of September 11, we would like to offer you 20% off your next purchase. Please bring in this coupon..." Yeah, right.

Um, before or After the meal? :p

Hi New York Texas, no I didn't even look at the wine list. The host insisted on seating my friend and I at the bar and I had a draft beer (they have their own called Blue Smoke but I didn't like it.) We all drank either a Bass or Sam Adams. Somehow ribs seem to go so well with cold beer.

Sorry to say but this place should be called "Blue Smoke & Mirrors." I went there the first week it opened; I believe the third day. I had half a rack of ribs and got exactly three ribs which came with a tiny saucer of cole slaw. I also ordered a couple of side dishes that, in other restaurants, usually come with a ribs dinner-here they're extra and they got the collard greens all wrong. How does one make collards so salty and watery at the same time? Don't know what kind of ham hocks they're using but I drank cold water all night to douse my thirst. When I left, I was still hungry and had fruit cup at home. The restaurant was packed before 6 p.m. and the night I was there, it felt more like a fraternity/singles place than a serious ribs/brisket kind of place. Maybe I'll go back after the crowds settle down and the place is debugged, de-smoked and de-hyped.

In New York City (especially Manhattan) apartments are so small and kitchens so cramped to start with that I don't want to be cramped further when eating out. Additionally, I have claustrophobia and this is really a problem when I have to take a crowded elevator, bus or subway. I avoid parades and generally tight spaces with people. If I see I'm being led to a very tightly packed area in a restaurant, I'll tell the host(ess) I have claustrophobia. Usually we'll get moved somewhere else. If the whole restaurant is seating people like wall-to-wall sardines, I won't stay. If I really want to dine at a popular/hot new restaurant for the first time, I'll usually go directly there and ask to see the room and ask the maitre'd what table they recommend for a person who's claustro. This helps. I do understand that rent is high in New York and major cities in the States and Europe but restaurants should also understand that customers like comfort. Also, the more tightly packed in you are, the more you have to deal with the servers as they bring food to the other tables. It's too intrusive. Some people don't mind; some do. I know some people who are totally oblivious to their surroundings and others who don't want to hear the sound of someone's cell phone. As for smoking, that's a total no-no. I make sure I'm not seated near a bar or cocktail area because even in a no-smoking restaurant, the smoke wafts your way.

Does anyone remember that fabulous Broadway show "A Chorus Line" Of course you do. There was a song from it called "Dance: Ten; Looks: Three" and that's how I feel about restaurants. The food can be a 10 but if the reservationist, wait staff, host/ess, or bus staff give me Agita, then that restaurant becomes a 3. I don't care how wonderful the food is: if I'm treated shabbily I can't enjoy the food. If I'm relegated to a rotten table or made to wait at the bar for an inordinate amount of time; if the wait staff is condescending, inattentive or bitchy, I won't go back - anyway, not on my dime. This is really a shame because the chef can be terrific, the ambiance wonderful where thousands of dollars have gone into the decor and the staff can ruin it. If it's a continuing pattern, then it's not the chef but management that has to be overhauled. I guess that's why Danny Meyer's restaurants are so well-liked. The pampering of diners goes a long way in cementing a relationship with a restaurant. What's that saying? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

At the risk of dating myself, where did these foods/products/restaurants go? Mello-Rolls - ice cream that was shaped like a small log that popped into a cone. Charlotte Russe Baked Alaska Fudgcicles Black Forest cake Jelly on the belly donuts (jelly is on the outside) Chocolate Cream Pie Cantonese restaurants that served chow mein, chop suey & pepper steak. I know that Chinese food has evolved from what I grew up with but these restaurants don't seem to be around anymore except for one in the East Village. That one, around Second Avenue and 12th Street, even has the cashier's stand with a glass display of cigarettes. What a flashback to the ole days!

Why do some of these laws still exist? Liquor stores on closed on Sundays and you can't buy beer in a market or have an alcoholic drink in a restaurant or bar before noon. You can't dance in an establishment that has music unless it has a cabaret license. Until recently, you couldn't get a haircut or your nails done on Sunday. I guess this blue law isn't enforced anymore. I mean if you want to look nice for church, wouldn't you want to get your hair styled beforehand?? I tried to find out about more about these blue laws and surprisingly couldn't locate that much on the net. It seems these blue laws were started in New Haven, Connecticut with the Puritans and some of them are still enforced in New York. Are there any other blue laws you know about? How can we get rid of some of the real archaic ones?

Being a native New Yorker, I enjoy all parts of Manhattan and other boros as well. IMO, people don't like to cross east to west or west to east because it takes longer to go crosstown than it takes just staying within a 20-block radius from where you start from. If I know I'm going to the theater (Times Square area or Lincoln Center) on the West Side, I'll eat in that general area as well; perhaps on 9th or 10th Avenue. If I'm on the East Side and doing something specific in that area, I'll stay there. But it's not because I prefer one area over another. I don't find either the West or East Side snooty at all. The Upper East Side that I know doesn't begin or end at Fifth or Madison Avenue. There are still many good neighborhood restos in the East 50s through 90s and it's fun to walk, explore and find them. The West Side has its own charm - especially after a nice long walk in Riverside Park. It doesn't start or end on Columbus Avenue. Personally, I don't bemoan the gentrification of the Upper West Side - I lived in the West 80s (this was pre-Lincoln Center) and I was afraid to go to school or even walk around the neighborhood. There were lots of school gangs, drugs and a threat of danger on what seemed like every street on Broadway, Amsterdam and Columbus. I'll take some mediocre restaurants anytime over what existed then. Been there, done that, no fun. Now going from the West Village to the East Village is no big deal - I walk it. It's also fun to walk from Chinatown through Little Italy, Nolita-Soho and wind up in the East or West Village or keep walking into Chelsea. I've never heard anybody complain they didn't want to travel from one of those areas. So, what's my point? I think there's too much of a black and white mindset about superior neighborhoods--an 'us against them' mentality and I just don't buy into that. Guess I like New York City too much.

Steve - Yowza! I hope I never get on your bad side. Methinks you came down hard on Suvir. He sounds very knowledgable to me and just because he's a moderator on e-Gullet, he's still entitled to his opinions. He stated he was only going to respond once, in that particular post, because I got the impression he didn't want to get sucked into a long drawn-out debate. I love good repartee and clever analysis of any subject but your response to him hit me as a bit mean-spirited and cranky. After all, this is a food forum, not war. Just my two-cents.

Sandra, that's so funny. My friends in San Francisco swear by Trader Joe's. Is there one anywhere in the New York area? Thanks.

The Irish pubs analogy was made by me to make a point that it's not just the French NY bistros that are creating a stage set. Incidentally, so many of my other posts have taken on so many different twists from my original subject. It's really very interesting to me to see how a thread evolves from its inception. For example, I started a post about "what foods do you eat when you're feeling blue or down in the dumps." To my surprise, this turned into something entirely different. Ditto for a recent post about where to find a restaurant that serves Cioppino. Actually, Baruch, your original post started a really good, stimulating and long thread. Keep 'em coming!

Earlier when I mentioned taverns and pubs, I meant new places that try to look like: Landmark Tavern on 10th Avenue, Old Town Bar on E. 18th Street and the newly refurbished Tonic on W. 18th St. There's a newish place on Grand Street (can't recall the name) right in the heart of Little Italy that looks just like a movie set from a grand old pub. IMO, glitz is what people want in addition to good food and an interesting, lively crowd. When Keith McNally opened Balthazar and Pastis, he knew this as well and it doesn't matter to me if he's not French. Last time I was in England, there were a small chain of French bistros cropping up with a name something like Cafe Rouge. When I complimented the manager on the decor, he said the owner was English. He pulled it off so what the hay

Ruby, indeed it could and I would be the one to call all those places, fakes, but I never meant to imply that people didn't love it. I've never believed that either PT Barnum or HL Menken didn't have their finger on the public pulse. By the way Cafe Sabarsky didn't try to recreate a Viennese cafe around the turn of the century, they did it last year. I've wondered if people can be "nostalgic" for places they nevere knew. I'd think not by definition. Bux, that's what I get when I try to write a post before my second cuppa coffee. What I meant to say was "FROM around the turn of the century." I know Cafe Sabarsky opened last year when the Neue Galerie was opened to the public by Ronald Lauder and the late Serge Sabarsky. Yes, I believe one can definitely be 'nostalgic' for places they never knew. Images from movies, books and theater add to nostalgia and we can be anyone/anywhere we want with a little imagination. So many people have been to France or have seen so many movies about it, that it's very natural to take immediately to a cafe that evokes La Belle Epoque or another period.

Gavin, not quite so. Health studies have also shown that too much alcohol causes hormonal levels to rise in women and high estrogen levels are linked to breast cancer. Also that alcohol causes the liver to to work overtime to filter out toxins and can cause liver damage. Here's a good link if anyone wants to read further: http://www.cfe.cornell.edu/bcerf....e=topic

To me, Cioppino tastes different but in your post you seem to have listed the differences yourself. Also, perhaps everything tastes better when I'm on vacation in San Francisco and other Californian cities

Fakery? Well, then this could also be said about all the taverns cropping up in New York that are made to look like pubs in England and Ireland with their long highly-polished mahogany bars. People love atmosphere and that's one of the reasons, IMO, we go to restaurants, cafes, brasseries (whatever) to bask in it. I recently went to Cafe Sabarsky because I'd read they tried to recreate a Viennese cafe around the turn of the century. Restaurants are theater and always will be. I read somewhere that the woodwork and bar at Balthazar was brought in from Wisconsin. The p.r. people at Balthazar made no bones about this fact because the restaurant is always getting compliments on the bar and people assume it was imported from France.