larrylee

Pan: I went back and looked at my dining receipts. Sure enough, I have a lot of meals for two in the $30 range. There's an $80 that I can't remember... but $126 fed six for lunch at Woo Lae Oak in Northern Virginia. It's true that meal will do more to jack up the bill, but I can't help but shake the feeling that the cost per ounce of meat at a Korean restaurant does not stack up to what you might get at a steak house. I also doubt that the meat used in Korean restaurants is dry aged, as it might be in a steakhouse. Meat dishes also seem to be purchased when entertaining guests, perhaps as a sign of generosity. Maybe the cost of the meat reflects the generosity of the host. But you're right, not all Korean food is expensive. Come to think of it, we usually just cook our own meat at home. So, myth busted. Korean food is not all expensive if you choose wisely. Ginger: I thought about the possible cost of ban chan but didn't mention it in my previous message because I thought, "well what if the ban chan is bought from somewhere else at a significantly reduced cost?" When and where are you serving your Korean tapas? Something interesting that Nanyun points out - for anyone who thinks service may be brusque or perhaps non-existent, the diner must be more pro-active in getting attention. It's quite common in Korean restaurants to actively flag down or call out to your waiter, an activity that would no doubt be unheard of in many other restaurants. On a side note, I have got to get to LA one of these days.

When I asked "who might not like Korean cuisine," I was envisioning someone completely ignorant of anything beyond what might be available outside of national chain restaurants and perhaps the frozen food aisle at the grocery store. I completely (and ignorantly) ignored the possibility that there might be people who eat with open minds and still don't like Korean food. To those folks, I apologize sincerely. Todd36: I was thinking about your portion size comment earlier today. If I go to a Chinese restaurant and order what I think are "a few dishes," I will always end up with an embarrassing mountain of food. I'm not blaming the restaurant, but I just want to point out that the notion of family style or sharing-sized portions is not restricted to Korean cuisine. As another example, imagine my surprise when I found out how many courses the "standard" Italian meal was supposed to have. Glance at any Italian restaurant menu that lists zuppa, antipasti, primo, secondi (please pardon any errors), and then try ordering one of each for one person. You can't do it! Not unless you're sharing with three or four people. Are there any instructions or advice on the menu? No. Does the server suggest this? No. Does the restaurant offer the option of serving reduced sized portions so you can have a bona fide meal with every course? Not that I've seen. It's been a rare occasion, if ever, that I've been with a group at an Italian restaurant where it was assumed everyone would share dishes so as to have an authentic Italian-style meal. As a final example, let's consider that "American" restaurants also have a tendency to present oversized portions in order to present the notion of value. McDonald's is an easy target, but far from the only one. Regarding cross-over/mainstream dishes, I know from experience that bibimbap is a slam dunk (thanks for pointing that out, Pan). It's what I always use to introduce people to Korean food. Dolsot bibimbap, served in a rocket-hot stone bowl, will actually let you fry the rice a bit, and then you can enjoy the charred rice on the bottom afterward. I don't think it's worth anyone's effort to appeal to carb-o-phobes. Now regarding salt, the meal you describe does sound a bit salty. But good grief, I'd have trouble imagining someone who could eat that much food. I don't think I'd be eating, much less order, at least half of what you just proposed for a single meal. Besides, let's not think that Americans have been afraid of salt. The national hysteria over sodium intake didn't come about by our culture being too stingy on salt intake. And from the general scarcity of Korean restaurants we know they're not to blame, either. It is true, though, that prepared Korean food can be heavy on salt and hot pepper. When I was young, I remember my parents would occasionally have a separate bowl of water to wash off some of the pepper and perhaps to wash off some salt from store-bought ban chan. You could ask your server for a bowl of water next time. Interestingly enough, our home-made ban chan never seemed to salty or hot. Finally, before I met my wife, I went for years without eating much Korean food. Now that I am eating it much more frequently, I don't think the food in restaurants (e.g. K-town, 32nd st) is too salty. I'd chalk that up to personal preference unless others chime in to the contrary. Pan: It's also true that Korean food tends to be mind-boggling expensive compared to most ethnic cuisines. "Cheap Korean" is practically an oxymoron. Maybe the prices high because it's what the target audience (Koreans) are willing to bear. Nathan: Fair comment on Korean-run Japanese restaurants, but let's not forget that kimchi is something of a hit in Japan and that it's not uncommon to find it served in Japanese-run home-style restaurants or izakayas these days. Phaelon: I was thinking about your "eight korean meals in the past 25 years" comment. I think you answered your own question with your Indian/Bangladeshi food experience. And that's why I think increased media coverage would be vital. To help explain what is good, and why. Reading Jeffrey Steingarten's pieces on bread has made me much more keenly aware (and picky) about the bread I eat now. rooftop1000: I completely respect your choice to use Lee Kum Kee... although... I think that's a Chinese company, and I'd probably just as soon avoid Korean-made dashi for soba noodles. But that's just me. thdad: I concede that there's plenty room for the simultaneous maintreaming and refinement of Korean food. I generally agree that mainstreaming a cuisine at least introduces certain aspects of it to a broader population. Whether it directly entices one to try more authentic cuisine is, in my mind, questionable. I subsisted off of Taco Bell for quite some time and it took years (and serendipitous circumstances) before I came to appreciate corn tortillas. But without that introduction, people may not be inclined to try the cuisine "full-strength" at all. I find it interesting that Thai and Vietnamese have been called out as cuisines that people might eat more frequently. Personally, I eat very little Thai or Vietnamese, though I don't object to either. In fact, we're planning a trip to Vietnam later this year, and at least one major reason is for the food. I've had Ethiopian just once. Recently I've had an insatiable craving for French bistro fare, but that's another matter entirely.

Tracey, If you're using commercial sauces to marinate your meat, try this instead: Soy Sesame oil sugar minced garlic You might want to add an acid, say some fruit juice. And make sure the soy is real soy (e.g. check the ingredients label for soybeans). You don't need a lot of sesame oil, and just add all the ingredients to taste.

Jason: thanks for pointing out the "Why isn't Korean food popular in the US?, Or is it?" thread. A fascinating read, and I think the factors affecting the general appeal and acceptance of Korean cuisine in the US have not changed much. I agree that Koreans are not doing a lot to promote their cuisine here. Just flip through, say, Time Out and see how many Korean restaurants are listed. A few, but none are around K-town. thdad: I'm Korean, so I'm not contributing much to this thread by saying I don't think the food is too ethnic. That's not to say that Korean cuisine isn't changing, though. I was recently at a Korean restaurant in northern Virginia and my mom complained that the food was too sweet. The waitress explained sweet is the new trend in Korean food. That's too bad. I think that Korean food is already instantly accessible to anyone who enjoys eating a broad array of cuisines. Not everything is pickled, and even then, I've met quite a few caucasians who can't seem to get enough kimchi. And even then, there is an astounding array of kimchi available. Not all of it is red and hot, cabbage and/or daikon. Who might not like Korean food? Those with insular food habits. Picky, unadventurous eaters. Is it worth dumbing down cuisine to attract that crowd? My opinion, no. However, on a related note, those looking for a cleaner, more "accessible" version of Korean food might want to try Dosirak on E 13th St, if it's still open. I haven't been there in ages. Cross-over dishes should help to create interest in a new cuisine. Kalbi, what red blooded, meat-eating, bone-gnawing American wouldn't like this dish? I guarantee it would a hit at _any_ backyard bbq if it is prepared home-style with kosher cut ribs instead of the traditional restaurants preparations. That is, either pre-cut meat with no bone, or presented as a long thin sheet of meat attached to a long section of rib and cut at the table with scissors. Boo. Discussions about the limited availability of Korean restaurants invariably seem to point back to the success, if you will, of the Chinese. Yay, Chinese restaurants are everywhere. That begs the question: to what end? Does this mean I can get authentic Chinese food, the sort eaten in Shanghai, Beijing, Hong Kong, Taipei, Fujian province, etc etc? No. It means I can get lots of dumbed down Chinese food across this nation of ours. The dishes may still quite reasonably stand on their own for being tasty and edible, and I gladly and willing had many satisfying cheap meals for years from the Chinese take-out place around the corner from my old apartment. But did this dumbed down cuisine whet my appetite for searching out more authentic cuisine? No, though it eventually changed. Why? Of all things, watching the original Iron Chef series (which, granted, usually featured a version of haute Chinese food tuned to the Japanese palate). Reading about Spicy and Tasty, the temporary ban on Sichuan peppercorns, Grand Sichuan, and choi sum gai fan in the NYT. I went back to my take-out place and asked them to make me mabo tofu. I got a surprised look and they gladly obliged, even though it's nowhere on their menu. But to echo my sentiments in the Chinatown Brasserie thread, where am I going to go to get authentic Chinese food? Chinatown? Maybe, though I've heard more than a few jaded folks say it's only for tourists and the real action is found out in the depths of Flushing and Bay Ridge. And that puts me in the same spot as Joe American sitting in a Korean restaurant. It doesn't matter if the menu has English on it. What are the dishes that will make this visit worthwhile? Restaurants should highlight their specialties. This is not limited to Korean restaurants. When I ask "what's good" in any ethnic restaurant and almost invariably get one of two responses. "Everything" or what amounts to a blank stare. Instead of dumbing down the cuisine, I'd rather see service improve at existing restaurants. Service will vary from restaurant to restaurant, day to day, shift to shift, server to server. I don't think Korean restaurants generally subscribe to any notion of excellence in service as you might find in other restaurants. I've never worked in any restaurant, let alone a Korean one, so maybe I'm talking out of my ***. Finally, more important than restaurants advertising themselves, I think Korean food could use more outsider press. Reviews in newspapers, magazines, eGullet. Books. Kitchen Confidential and A Cook's Tour both completely changed my mind on offal. Television: I watched the No Reservations episode on Korea with mixed thoughts. Anthony Bourdain loves offal, and it's so widely available in Korea. I wish he had visited places that served offal and blood sausage, rather than be trapped in that karaoke room for an interminable period of time. Or go through some of the other markets that sell things besides fish. I was really astounded on my recent trip. Here's a self-promoting link for some pictures I took while in Korea this spring. Who could look at this and not start salivating? But what's more important is that at least he went there for the rest of us to see. I think one small thing we can all do is begin writing about what it is we like at Korean restaurants.

But that's not comparing apples to apples. The only thing Angel's Share and Decibel have in common is that they're both "Japanese places." The drinks selections are completely different, are they not? Angel's Share is more about cocktails, whereas Decibel is more about sake.

I realize I'm getting dangerously close to being off-topic, but was pig's ear bad because you don't like pig's ear? Or was it bad pig's ear?

Sneakeater, thanks for providing this perspective. I haven't been to CB yet but I intend to, but I am also looking a place like Shun Lee that offers something different. Haute Chinese, if you will.

mizducky, I recently heard a news program (probably something related to NPR) that voiced a similar concern. How will Wal-Mart's standard operating procedures apply to organic farmers who may not be used to ramping up for high production capacity? The speaker on the program was basically saying that most organic farms are not prepared for that, and it could cause unintended consequences. Pricing pressure might cause adherence to standards to slip, for example. I also thought USDA Certified Organic meant you could not use anything genetically modified. In fact, I think I recall signing some web petition some time back that called on the USDA to not relax its standards for certified organic labelling. Am I totally off? http://www.organicgardening.com/feature/0,...5-20-17,00.html http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/Q&A.html

Sneakeater, Rightly so. I didn't intend to challenge that the restaurant was closed. I just found Eater's reasoning to be unhelpful speculation.

The problem with the entry from Eater is that it isn't substantiated in any way. "Apparently" sounds more like speculation than anything else.

Ned, A question and a comment. The question: I haven't been to CB and though I love Peking duck I can't profess to have had it at enough places to draw any real opinions of my own. For basis of comparison, where else have you had Peking duck in the city? The comment: Out of curiosity, I called up CB to ask about their policy regarding credit card-backed reservations. Credit cards are required for parties of six or more. I mean, you could have asked when you had them on the phone. :-) Incidentally, how full was the restaurant when you left it?

ZenKimchi: I noticed that the filling in the intestine was mildly bitter but I haven't really been able to get a straight answer on what it is. I think the cost of gop chang comes in the effort to prepare it. It sounds like Soup knows the story. Apparently, the preparation is very labor intensive. The gop chang comes surrounded in a lot of fat that has to be cut away. Soup: I haven't had tong gol. I guess the first thing that comes to mind is Mad Cow... have you had it? What's it like? A detail I missed about the gop chang gui - since it is grilled, the gop chang develops a nice char that really enhances the flavor and texture. This particular dish also had some honeycomb tripe that was cut into rectangular strips resembling the gop chang. Eating that with pa muchim made me almost made me forget that I wanted to have a bowl of rice. Googling Korean food names is a bit hit-and-miss. I wish there was a standard romanization for Korean. A search on wikipedia reveals this page but it's way too involved for me to read right now. While riding the Seoul subway I noticed that the station I would have written as "Samsung" is spelled "Samseong," which corresponds to the Wikipedia page.

I realize I'm sort of veering off topic, but since I started it in this forum... So the two other places we thought would have gop chang here in Manhattan's K-town sadly did not have it. However, Kang Suh did. Or rather, they were serving gop chang jeong gol and gop chang jigae. My wife asked someone who looked like a manager if they would serve us gop chang gui and he called the kitchen, which agreed. No one told the wait staff upstairs so they were a bit puzzled, but it was all worked out in the end. No flambeing in soju but it was still quite delicious. Unfortunately, Kang Suh has switched from charcoal to gas! The upstairs tenants apparently complained. What a disappointment in the grand scheme of things. We were also told that the... filling inside the gop chang was essentially the cow's last meal. Anyone know if that's true? The dish was not cheap - $21.99 per person. And then there was a bit of a zen moment when I was contemplating my stomach, full of intestine... well, anyway. Oh, final note - Kang Suh had a small sign up indicating they were serving "non-smelly soon dae jigae." Kind of defeats the point if you ask me...

Thanks for pointing that out! I'm familiar with Kang Suh, but I thought "Kang Shu" was some other restaurant I hadn't heard about. She also says there are at least two other restaurants on the south side of 32nd that serve it. She doesn't have the names yet. One of them apparently has large, round metal tables. The other place is a second floor restaurant.

My wife says that Kang Shu Restaurant on 32nd St in Manhattan has gop chang gui. Now I'll have to go try it, but I wonder how good it will be?

Soup and ZenKimchee, Thanks for clearing up the matter. Small intestines it is. ZenKimchi: Unfortunately, that link to your writeup with video returned a server error. I haven't had raw liver yet, but gop chang grilled and flambeed with soju sounds awesome. What's that dish called in Korean? LOL on the "tripe is like condoms" comment. It's certainly an acquired taste if you haven't grown up with it. I didn't, but I've been coming around slowly. The only place I've had gop chang at in New York is Shilla, in Manhattan K-town. I picked their gop chang jigae on a whim and it also has tripe. The dish as a whole lacked the sort of depth as the version I had in Korea. The tripe, however, was mercifully cut small enough to eat without being too chewy.

I had a really great gop chang jeong gol in Gyeongju (not too chewy, and a bit of beef flavor). I received conflicting information on what gop chang is. I've seen it referenced as tripe and intestine, but it can't be both. I googled pictures of the four types of tripe and none of them match the tubular, ziti-like appearance of the gop chang. Can someone answer this question in detail? thanks, Larry

cjs, I believe that it was mentioned earlier in this thread that PETA's strategy is to attack "softer" targets first. Chickens in cages will be next. (That is to say nothing about my opinions of chickens or agribusiness)

In a tangentially related topic... Google stands up for poultry rights FIRM TO BUY CAGE-FREE EGGS FOR SAKE OF ANIMAL WELFARE http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/14554985.htm

Megan and Sneakeater: I guess you're right. And then there was the absolutely ridiculous "freedom fries" thing. For the love of... will someone please think of the FOOD? As if the American cattle industrial complex has anything to be proud of... FYI, NYT ran another piece on foie gras around Christmas, which provides another perspective on the production of foie gras. www.nytimes.com/2005/12/14/dining/14foie.html

I'm hoping this post is a joke, I can hardly imagine what a particular food being French has anything to do with the animal activist backlash against foie gras. If anything, I think the French have an even greater love and respect for food than Americans. I wonder if the fact that it's French has anything to do with the ease with which it was banned. After all, you know what *those* people like to do! My son just ate at Cyrus Restaurant last night and reports that he thoroughly enjoyed the "ménage à fois". (Yes, three different treatments of the item in question.) Is this X-rated aspect of some people's perception of the French part of the "retarded" reaction we're seeing? Lonnie ←

Sorry for the multiple posts. Nishida Denshu is one of my all time favorites. Well rounded flavor, good with sushi or by drinking alone. I was devastated when my local favorite sushi bar stopped carrying it. I'd also recommend the Dewazakura Dewasansan and the Dewasansan Nama Genshu. I like a wide range of sakes, but I stay away from taru (cedar) aged sakes and ones that are too dry (Yuki No Bosha, Hakuryu) or too sweet (Kamoizumi KomeKome, which almost tastes like pineapple to me). I like daiginjos but I generally prefer junmais because of their stronger flavor profiles that tend more towards rice flavor than floral or fruit notes. Rebel Rose, You might try calling True Saketo see if they'll ship to you. I tried viewing their web page but... I have to upgrade my Flash plugin first. :-\

That is truly astounding. Possibly more awe-inspiring/frightening than the EveR-1 (Engadget) I wish I ran across one of those carts while in Seoul...

Hi Sneakeater. I don't mean to be argumentative but I believe Wakatake is a brand. Which of Wakatake's offerings do you like? Masumi makes some really outstanding sakes ranging from junmais to yamahais and they are in NYC this week to do some promotions. I submitted a tasting event to the New York Calendar. Once the entry posts, I invite all to check it for the names of the sakes. They are all outstanding. Other fine choices include Dewazakura Oka and selections from Koshi no kanbai, but the exact names fail me at the moment. I'll have to look them up. Rebel Rose: Whereabouts in California are you? I recall seeing a fairly large selection of sakes at the Berkeley Bowl. Sho Chiku Bai's brewery is probably less than a mile away from that.

Ahhh, beondaeggi! They tasted like dried shrimp to me. I just had them near Seoul National University a few weeks ago... though I admit I couldn't eat more than a few. I couldn't get over the visual factor. It seems like an old school sort of snack. Frankly, I became a big fan of the toast sandwiches. I wish there was cheap street food like that in New York. I'm tired of the nuts, hot dog/pretzels, and chicken-on-a-stick guys. True, there are the halal and falafel carts, but it's sometimes a lot more food than I want to eat. How about the pumpkin chews? I thought they were going to pull out my fillings... that's something you eat _slowly_.