larrylee

The cyanide comment is completely irrelevant and adds nothing to this off-topic conversation. Glutamates are used because they somehow work to "enhance" the flavor of the foods to which they are added. The unfortunate side effect is that there is a population of people who are hypersensitive to it. I don't recall ever reading about culinary benefits from adding cyanide to food.

What Einstein Told His Cook, which I'm reading right now, discusses MSG and on page 107 you'll find the following: Also... I think most people conclude that CRS is a figment of one's imagination, but I admit I've had some inexplicable splitting headaches after one or two meals down in Chinatown. I may be somewhat sensitive to MSG but it hasn't happened often enough to make me nervous. Can't we just leave well enough alone now?

It's any chef's perogative to use whatever they want in their cooking. David Chang appears to be clearly aware of the effects of MSG and has labelled his menu as such. You know, it's possible the mayo he's using is used at other restaurants where the presence of MSG isn't listed at all. If you're sensitive to it, avoid it and be thankful it's posted on the menu for your awareness. What's all the fuss about?

Rich, I don't ask riddles. I've been genuinely curious lately as to why "top tier" Chinese restaurants in New York seem to be practically non-existent. Let's assume that Reichl, because of her job, has been to these Vegas invitation-only Chinese restaurants, tasted the food, and knows they are superior to what's available in the rest of the country. Then her assertion that the best Chinese restaurants in America are in Vegas are is a mere statement of fact. Now let's talk about the "affluent Chinese" statement, to which you take offense. We can probably agree that demand, in and of itself, is a requirement to the existence of any restaurant. What kind of factors fuel demand for a particular cuisine? Two come to mind: a native population to feed, and some sort of cultural popularity. So, for example, New York has a small Thai population, less than 8,000 in the entire state at the last census. I can't name a single Thai pop star, but it seems everyone except me likes pad thai. You've got a hook and a basis for a fleet of Thai restaurants to the tune of 144 listings in Menupages. As another example, there are over 32,000 Japanese in New York state. In addition, Japanese culture has taken on a life of its own in the US and is thus fueling a demand for Japanese restaurants among the non-native population, ranging from the very humble (Otafuku) to high temples (Yasuda, Masa, Sugiyama), resulting in a staggering 415 listings in Menupages. So why is it that New York, with a Chinese population exceeding 300,000 (and 440 restaurants in menupages), seems to generally have restaurants that range only in the low-to-middling range? Chinese pop culture doesn't have the same grip in the US as Japanese culture, and I'd be willing to bet that most people associate Chinese cuisine with only take-out fare. So who else but the Chinese would demand Chinese cuisine, and who could afford it but the affluent? Is that really such a far-fetched idea? Perhaps Reichl have said "there is insufficient demand among the affluent Chinese in New York for Chinese cuisine," but would that have been any different? Actually, she did say something to the effect of "we [as New Yorkers] don't appreciate good Chinese cuisine." Viewed against the entire population of New York City, I guess it's true or we wouldn't even be discussing this. She took a few of shortcuts, but I think your assertion that she's being culturally insensitive is overdrawn. edit: Jeez, you turn your back and suddenly there are a bunch of new replies. The ex-pat community reference is intriguing and helps clarify her statements.

Did you see the video clip? The relevant discussion in the video starts at minute 31:45. At any rate, you're missing the point. Her argument is that cuisine (not just "food") follows money, and a critical mass of affluent Chinese demanding Chinese cuisine would beget fine dining establishments to fille that need. Perhaps you disagree with her premise, but it doesn't sound implausible to me. There are obviously many affluent Chinese-Americans in New York today, but are they eating Chinese food? If so, where? Please, enlighten all of us.

One of the subtopics in this thread is CB's value proposition and if CB represents a step towards "fancier," if you will, Chinese cuisine. As it so happens, I was watching the Charlie Rose "food episode" referenced in the thread Charlie Rose: Robuchon, Reichl, Bill Buford, free episode link at google. About 30 minutes in, Charlie Rose asks Ruth Reichl why there aren't great Chinese restaurants in New York. Her response was that the great Chinese restaurants tend to be where Chinese money is, which is not in New York. She also went on to say that the best Chinese restaurants in the US are in Las Vegas, and they are by invitation only! She also said that "We're are about to get a really good Chinese restaurant," that Alan Yau of Hakkasan in London is going to open a restaurant in New York in the fall. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Yau http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakkasan http://travel.guardian.co.uk/restaurants/s...1003034,00.html

Shanghai Mong is definitely a visual departure from its neighbors. Have you had the jajangmyun there, and if so, what did you think of it? I thought it was pretty decent, though I'm no afficionado. I like the pricing an portions of the dish, which are just right for lunch. Now if I can just eat it without getting the sauce all over my shirt...

"Fake" or "modified to be trendy" is some pretty harsh criticism. I've read a few interviews with David Chang and he seems to be a fairly straightforward, earnest chef. His goal is probably to make Korean cuisine more available to the masses who might be intimidated by K-town. This was touched upon in the recent Why can't Korean food become mainstream?, Kimchi for the masses? topic. I'm glad you mentioned K-town options, but you might want to try Ssam Bar and judge it on its own terms first.

I'm posting this in the hopes that other visitors will benefit from my mistake. I'm hoping this is an appropriate thread, since it's where I learned of The Front Room. My wife and I were in Maine this past weekend and this thread was immensely helpful in picking out some excellent places to eat. We had a late brunch at the Front Room. I ordered the two eggs with biscuits and gravy plate. The eggs were over easy and basted in bacon drippings. An excellent choice. What struck me about the eggs is that they were quite fluffy. I'm used to extremely thin egg whites, and these had substantial volume. The dish was best when my fork had a little bit of everything on the plate. The fresh fruit plate featured some Maine blueberries, which makes the best stuff in the Union Square greenmarket pale in comparison. The staff was very friendly and allowed me to take some pictures of the interior. Regarding the location, I should have paid more attention to this post from Jack Rose, or the text on the Front Room's web site. Google Maps puts "73 Congress St" at the intersection of Congress and High, which is not right at all. It's near the Eastern Promenade, around Merrill St. Strangely enough, Google Maps puts "100 Congress St" in what appears to be the right vicinity. Speaking of the Front Room's web site, it's http://www.thefrontroomrestaurant.com/. Below is a picture of the exterior. It's also across the street from a large stone church.

From my experience from the (Chinese) 35th St Bakery (near 8th Ave), I think this is probably true. Savory breads are available at lunch, and by the end of the day only sweet pastries are left.

I think we're straying off topic now, but the article (which shows up as the first google search on "bonito infected") is interesting. Here it is in its entirety: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...&pagewanted=all

Jason, Is it me or did your reply double in length from the last time I read it? Maybe I was just half-asleep. :-D I was also thinking that Korean cuisine was better represented in homes. There were many complaints in the thread about how salty and spicy the food on 32nd St is, and then there were some comments on Buddhist food. The food we eat at home ranges somewhere between the two. It's interesting you mention Indian cuisine, and I'm surprised no one mentioned the spread of Indian restaurants when Thai restaurants were mentioned. Menupages lists 160 Indian restaurants in the area, even more than Thai (144). We had a pot luck lunch at work some time ago and the homemade Indian dishes struck me as infinitely more nuanced, fresh, flavorful than at some of the Indian places we've eaten at. I could eat that every day. Filipino food doesn't strike me as being too strongly-flavored, though I've only had a few dishes. I wonder if Filipino adobo considered "tasty" or "too ethnic?" Given what's going on in the Chinatown Brasserie thread, I'm guessing acceptance of Korean cuisine will be pushed back a few more years. And about kimchi's purported miraculous capabilities, the place settings at Kum Gan San tout "Doctor Someone-or-other's Lactic Bacteria Kimchi." Wow. That sort of advertising probably sells really well in Korea, where the general populace seems quick to latch on to any sort of health food claim, but seeing the word "bacteria" on my place setting didn't exactly stir my appetite! I should have said something.

Scubadoo, if you haven't read A Cook's Tour yet, I highly recommend it. I think reading that book, along with watching the series on Food Network (if it's still on in reruns), lays down the perfect context for enjoying No Reservations. I didn't really start eating offal until after I read the book, and even then it took some time for me to acquire a taste for it.

Nathan, I think the sort of arguments you bring up below echo the chorus of complaints that apparently arose when Ruth Reichl started reviewing "cheap" restaurants for the NYT. In fact, here's a piece about that: http://www.salon.com/nov96/interview961118.html To pass off Katz's pastrami as "just pastrami" is akin to calling South Carolina pulled pork "vinegary pig." I would hope that people on eGullet would be here to understand what differentiates good pastrami from bad just as much to debate why Thomas Keller makes a difference. Eddie's post is one of the most informative entries in this entire thread, if not one of the most informative I've read on eGullet to date. I have no wish to make enemies, but your view strikes me as very shallow and I hope it is not more prevalent on eG. We're here precisely because all of this stuff matters. Aren't we?

Tasting notes... My experience at Tisserie made me wonder more about croissants, so my wife and I went on a mini croissant tasting tour this psat weekend. We hit Balthazar, La Bergamote, and City Bakery. Bouchon Bakery is closed until Aug 16. Tisserie's croissant ties with City Bakery's "normal" croissant for rock bottom of the bunch. Balthazar was buttery but with "not superb" layer separation... though still a league better than Tisserie. La Bergamote's was less buttery than Balthazar's but with much improved separation of layers. Quite respectable, nothing to sniff at. Their pain au chocolate was also amazing. A delicate crackling crunch as I bit into it. City Bakery's pretzel croissant was notable for being a surprising and very enjoyable departure from what we expected.

Hi Jason. I think those are all valid points. They got me thinking, and I'll address the audience at large with my following comments. Not all Korean food is hot, spicy, garlicky, and fermented. It's valid for someone to say, "spicy, garlicky, fermented Korean food doesn't agree with me." To that end, we can refine the argument and say, "Korean food may suffer from an awareness issue. The general perception of Korean food is that everything is spicy, garlicky, and fermented." But labelling all Korean food that way is inaccurate. Summer is a great time to try samgaetang or naeng myun, foods that are decidedly none of the above. In fact, the NYT has already covered naeng myun. Unfortunately, my wife and I liked You-chun better in its previous incarnation, the strangely-named i36 BBQ, and we prefer the naeng myun at Dae Dong. And for that matter, I had a hard time chewing through the naeng myun noodles at the 32nd St Kum Gan San. Kimchi makes up a significant percentage of the ban chan brought out in most restaurants, but it's not the only option available. Many Korean soups and stews are actually based on broth made from dried anchovies. Dol sot bibimbap is another classic cross-over dish. It's only as spicy as you choose to make it. I have no agenda to "force" people to accept Korean food. I'm actually quite glad thdad posted this topic because it's made me think a lot about how my own attitudes toward food have changed over time. We're entitled to our tastes and opinions and it doesn't bother me that people dislike Korean food. We're not all food reviewers with budgets that allow us to go back and retry restaurants and cuisines that don't make good first impressions. However, I find some of the commentary on this thread disrespectful and shallow. Some of the arguments made carry as little weight as if I were to complain that all Mexican food sucks because the salsa is too hot. Or that American food is boring because it is nothing but fast food burgers and soggy pizza. Let's not forget there's an entire generation of children across Asia (and immigrants here in the US) getting fat because of the influence of "American" food.* Perhaps we should all take a moment to think about America's own food image. It's not all Niman Ranch pork and organic microgreens. I would be just as disappointed if the topic were about French cuisine (which I love) or Ethiopian (which I don't). I joined eGullet to discuss food, broaden my horizons, and hopefully help others along the way. I'm reminded of a brief scene from Episode 2 of Alton Brown's Feasting on Asphalt, in which he tries a pig brain sandwich. It's clear he doesn't like it, but he puts on a strong face and speaks objectively. Shortly afterward, he stops to think. He's been seriously challenged and is trying to figure out what to say. Here is a rough transcript: "You know, as I'm driving along here, I'm thinking a lot about that brain sandwich. You know, I didn't think it was very good. It would be very easy for me to 'say that sandwich is no good'... but you know what? maybe that's just my palate. Maybe my palate has become... over-Americanized. Maybe the whole point is that these regional foods that really have a great deal of meaning to individual culture groups, like the Germans here in Evansville, maybe that flavor is important to them. Maybe the fact that a lot of other people don't like it keeps it theirs. So it's an acquired taste, or an inherited taste for the German community here. Because the rest of us don't like it that much, it stays theirs. Which means that it's connective tissue to their heritage. Maybe that's what food's really supposed to do after all." That we could all be so thoughtful. ----- * http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...agewanted=print http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/12/nyregion...=rssnyt&emc=rss

As I recall, China has some sort of prestigious master chef award. I saw it on Iron Chef (the original), so it must be true!

So maybe all the people who prefer Vietnamese to Korean can help me figure something out. I don't eat a lot of Vietnamese food. I have nothing against it, I just don't eat it all that often. If I do, it's usually some combination of green papaya salad, summer rolls, pho, or bo luc lac and I enjoy them all. If I google for "vietnamese garlic fish chili" I get lots of results. Nuoc mam itself is nothing if not fermented and fishy. The first time I smelled it in the bottle I was overwhelmed. I've made my peace with it, the bottle has its own spot in our fridge, and it helps me make Charles Phan's Lemongrass-Grilled Rack of Lamb with Tamarind Sauce. (http://www.howtocookeverything.tv/htce/Tak...ecipeId-32.html) So if people dislike garlic, chili paste, and fermented fishy smells in Korean food, and if these same components are present in Vietnamese cuisine, then aren't we just talking about shades of grey? One difference that immediately comes to mind is the use of aromatics like cilantro, basil, lemongrass. Citrus. So what's the story? Do the Vietnamese food fans here avoid the fermented aspects of Vietnamese food? Are these characteristics less pronounced than in Korean food? Is it that the fermented flavors are off-set by aromatics and citrus? What do you eat when you order Vietnamese? Also, what is the spread of Vietnamese cuisine in America? A quick survey of restaurants through Citysearch shows that, on an average, Vietnamese restaurants tend to outnumber Korean restaurants. But is it being served to the mass market? Is McDonald's serving bahn mi? Green papaya salad? Is it at Red Lobster? TGI Friday's? Can I find Vietnamese at Pax? The take-out foods section of a grocery store? Personal opinions certainly factor heavily in one's acceptance of food, but I think we're losing the forest for the trees.

Sneakeater, I've spent some time searching eG for this thread to no avail. I hit the search engine for a while and then I went to the NY Forum, alphabetized the threads, and still didn't find "Chinese cuisine in New York." Do you have a link handy, or can you at least tell me/us what forum that thread is in?

The McD/TGIF/Taco Bell comment is relevant. It's Jeffrey Steingarten's "Calamari Index (CI)." For a full explanation, read the introduction of "It Must Have Been Something I Ate: The Return of the Man Who Ate Everything." The idea is that tentacled sea creatures were the last thing that anyone in America wanted eat, despite the fact that it was accepted elsewhere in the world. That it appears as bar food across the nation today is a sign of how far it's come. Why hasn't Korean food hit high on the CI yet? Why aren't Korean restaurants as widespread as Japanese or Chinese restaurants? Why don't we see bulgogi salad shakers at McDonald's? I think we've discussed at least some of those reasons: 1) There's no magic ingredient, like the aforementioned coconut milk for Thai cuisine. 2) Actual or perceived lack of crossover capability. Ignore Korean barbecue for a moment. Calamari is popular in the US primarily because it's breaded and fried. It's the sugar that helps the medicine go down. What kind of trojan horse might we put around Korean food? Deep fried kimchi? I'm not so sure about that. 3) The Korean community serves itself and that seems to be enough. If you watch Korean TV you'll see that restaurants advertise all the time. I even saw an ad for a Japanese-run sushi bar somewhere in Jersey. You won't see these ads on, say, the Six O'Clock news on Channel 7, or in New York Magazine. It's just the way it is. 4) There hasn't been a buildup of Korean culture in the US to lend the cuisine any coolness, though Korean pop culture is in vogue across all of Asia right now. In fact, it astounded me when the Korean pop singer Rain performed at Madison Square Garden, the only people I knew who attended were Chinese. 5) The Chinese aren't opening Korean restaurants en masse. Why? Because it seems to me the majority of sushi restaurants, or even Japanese restaurants, appear to be run by the Chinese. Or Koreans. The Chinese will run Chinese restaurants ranging from elaborate and beautiful to the smallest take-out. They'll serve Chinese/Japanese, Chinese/Mexican, Vietnamese, Malaysian, just about any imaginable. Koreans run delis, Korean/Japanese and Korean/Chinese restaurants. Who's running the Korean restaurants? By and large, just the Koreans. So when one wonders why there are more Thai restaurants than Korean restaurants, my totally un-PC, completely unresearched theory is that the majority of Thai restaurants are run by non-Thai. And they're probably Chinese. There's no Thai-town, no critical mass of Thai population to feed. There's a magic ingredient. Those running Thai restaurants have no choice but to cater to its surrounding clientele. The Chinese excel at that. The Koreans, obviously, not so much. This would also explain to my why there are so few Thai restaurants that are considered authentic. I skimmed some census data (*) to see how many Thai live in the area. The last census data (**) for New York shows that of its foreign-born population, only 7,400 report being born in Thailand. In the city's demographic profile (***) there are 86,473 Koreans. Thai aren't even broken out into their own category. Note the following snippet from a NYT piece, which supports at least parts of my theory: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html...756C0A9679C8B63 Why aren't the Chinese, or anyone else for that matter, opening Korean restaurants? Well, you've got me. I question the role of garlic in holding back the appeal of Korean cuisine. It's true that garlic is not culturally sexy. It's hard to picture Paris Hilton snarfing down wads of kimchi before going out on a night on the town. However, garlic has its ardent fans in the US. Note the popularity of Emeril Lagasse and Emeril Live. He is always throwing in "thirty or forty" cloves of garlic to the cheers of the audience. I'll reiterate a point I made earlier. Eating lots of takeout Chinese did nothing to grow my interest in "real" Chinese cuisine. Therefore, is it a true loss if Korean food fails to hit high on the calamari index? To me, the answer is simple: no. I'll take it full strength. In fact, I'll take any cuisine full strength as long as I know what I'm getting myself into. Which leads me to what I think is the final and most important reason, which I mentioned in a previous post: 6) Lack of PR. That's not to diss on Emeril. I just googled "emeril korean" and got back quite a few search results. Not everyone on this board likes Korean cuisine, or NY K-town Korean cuisine, but it's clear to me that enough non-Koreans already like it in one form or another to prove it doesn't need to be dumbed down. Advertising, education, awareness. That is what will attract people. Back to kalbi's crossover appeal, I noticed that Dinosaur Bar-B-Que has "BBQ beef ribs Korean style." In a restaurant started by bikers from Syracuse. Need I say more? ----- * http://www.empire.state.ny.us/nysdc/ ** http://www.empire.state.ny.us/nysdc/census...tryNYStotal.pdf *** http://www.empire.state.ny.us/nysdc/census...moProfiles1.asp

The croissants must have changed since July, and not for the better. They are extremely crunchy on the outside, but the inside is thick and gummy. Very unsatisfactory. The super-crunchy exterior, gummy interior is also present in their apple filled pastry, too.

Super Tacos! Look for the silver van on the SW corner of 96th and Broadway after 5 PM. The tacos seem to be bigger if you get them to stay, rather than to go. Delivery minimum is $10. A little blurb I wrote: http://www.yelp.com/biz/R4L19kfjFVoJoiRw_nXmqg

What's not food? Live octopus? I had it in Korea, albeit a much smaller one, and it's not "gross" or really too crazy, though it is a unique experience. I'd definitely classify it as a delicacy, though, since there is really no need to eat an octopus alive. Regarding whether or not mankind will "survive" with respect to food, I think the only people at risk are those who know nothing more about food than what they buy pre-packaged from the supermarket or from restaurants and take-out. That is, people who take it for granted.

chefzadi and melonpan: thank you very much for posting a selection of places in LA. Melonpan, What would your alternatives be for each place? (I know, we're probably tottering just on this side of straying off topic, but I think it's still relevant). Generally speaking, I think we should steer away from broad ethnic palate preferences. There may be a grain of truth in it, but like I said before, I've seen plenty of non-Koreans digging in to a bowl of kimchi or kimchi jigae and loving every sweat-inducing second of it. jeanki: About your soy-and-wasabi dunking comment: Koreans seem to love swabbing their sushi or sashimi in kochujang. *shudder* Pan: Thanks for correcting me on the courses in a standard Italian meal. Your final observation, "That said, I've found that many Italians do not have the full traditional meal all the time, anyway" is particularly relevant because I brought up the standard (or perhaps "traditional") Italian meal because Todd36 called the Korean meal salty by listing what seemed to be an impossible number of dishes in succession. I would hope that there'd be quite a few diners present if that many dishes were present. And if that were the case, chances are that no one would be eating a lot of any one particular dish. Todd36: Well, at least we agree on Minca's ramen. Oh, come on. Your gripes are starting to get a little silly. Just don't eat the whole bowl of pickles. Don't eat the entire plate of pajun. Korean restaurants could learn to make smaller portions, but remember the target audience. It's groups of four or more. Whereas many non-Korean restaurants will never seat two at a table for four, this is quite common in K-town because tables for two are rare. That said, I don't complain that John's Pizza won't serve by the slice. I don't ask Grand Sichuan if they can make their bone-in five spice pork shoulder in a portion for two (instead of... what was probably at least six. That was embarrassing). I think anyone will agree that NY K-town restaurant food will be, on average, saltier than Japanese food. I believe that enhancing the inherent flavor of food is a tenet of Japanese cuisine, so it naturally follows that food will not be heavily salted, pickled, spicy, etc. It's practically the polar opposite of Korean food. Consequently, I'd say that asking Japanese folks if they think Korean food is salty is askin to an (Asian) Indian person if they think if American "spa" cuisine is underspiced. I like Raji's point that on blending Japanese esthetics to Korean food. Actually, I think there is a yakiniku restaurant in the East Village (not Yakiniku West) that opened up this year, or maybe late last year. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? But as melonpan points out, I couldn't imagine relying on it without precisely the sort of food that's being served in K-town today. I'd say this thread hit a nerve. It's clear NY K-town can't please everybody today. There are folks who think that NY Korean food is over-salted, too forward flavored, too expensive, with overly large portions. Some of these are true, some of these may be the effects of personal preferences. Perhaps an aspiring restauranteur will stumble upon this thread and find an opportunity. Okay, so who wants to have Korean for dinner this week? ) At either K-town, or one of these other non-K-townish places?

So besides the group that just doesn't like Korean food, there's another group that says, "I like Korean food but not this old-fashioned stuff in NY." Not having been to LA, and not having spent a long time in Korea, the question becomes, "what is the effect of new-style Korean food in areas where it exists?" Have these places led to an accelerated acceptance of Korean food in those areas? Has this led to the decline of 'old school' Korean restaurants? Or is there enough room in the dining ecosystem for both types of cuisine? It seems to me that parallels are being drawn between NY style Korean and deplorable 1950's casserole cooking with canned foods. And, because the cuisine hasn't updated, explains why Korean food hasn't hit mainstream. I don't see it that way. To me, NY K-town represents straightforward, hearty, comfort food. Comfort food doesn't go out of style, though you may not want it all the time. These complants are akin to going to a French brasserie and saying "this steak frites is way too heavy. I want some nouveau steak frites. You know, with less salt and a lighter flavor." And that's why there aren't more French restaurants across the country. I'll gladly relieve you of your plate. Here's another thought. K-town is filled not only with restaurants, but offices full of Koreans who probably represent a large portion of the client base. A restaurant will value someone who comes in several times a week far greater than the occasional tourist. Therefore, it's possible the current style of food persists because it is what the client base demands. Raji, the Yakiniku web site is very interesting. Looks like a Korean guy striking out for a Japanese audience. I thought about that the other night, that perhaps one way to break out of the mold is to essentially abandon a traditional Korean audience base. A few places have done this. Dosirak, Mandoo Bar on University (though it closed, that space must be cursed), Temple, with apparently mixed success. That's a lot of risk to take if there's a proven successful model. Having said that, sure, I'd love to see some nouveau Korean cuisine in New York. (And Chinese while I'm at it, but that's another thread) What about Don's Bogam BBQ? The price/portion ratio of their specialty, wine marinated pork, seemed a bit steep and perhaps the servers' English is still not so great, but I think you'd have to agree it represents a step away from "cafeteria-style" restaurants. A final thought: if nouveau style Korean can cross the ocean to LA, then why can't it hope across the continent to NY?