PassionateChefsDie

Hi balex Wasn't sure of exact figures but i'm sure it is quite a bit higher, they are a culture of food though. I remember discussing with a French man and he said have I had Duck Liver on steak he lost me for a mo, had he said Foie Gras i'd of known what he meant. Even the regular folk in France seem to eat good food, not even sure where I heard it originally, but you kinda of confirmed the original statement. Reckon if you include Hotels and restaurants from a French point it may come out higher still just need someone to find the French stats now my French isn't up to that. once I lose the cooking terms I get well lost I struggle on the recipes. Thanks for link Edit: Typos all over(I'm not meant to write, just cook) I found table from 93 that puts there expenditure at one and half time ours. No nearer to 2005 http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:3HgM3...lient=firefox-a

Have I argued any differently did I sell crated veal, didn't I mention respect. But calves are a by product of the milk industry that was my point. Edit: I'm personally against crated veal and would try not to serve it, my argument is that most commercial meat involves slaughter with a human element and humans are animals who occasional make mistakes. We dont grow sheep for wool it's for meat! But as long as the consumer isn't willing to pay the extra for the free range, the farmer is trying to make money, it's a business! As for unethical farmers all I can say. Is I heard about a animal lover keeping sheep, refusing to dock there tales and from the local sheep farmer who had 1000's of sheep free range, he said not docking left more animals with crusty bottoms and a breeding place for flies. So much for animal lovers sometimes the farmers do know best it's in there interest to look after there animals! But until people dip into there pockets a bit deeper the farmer will have to contend with imports from countrys that have no animal right laws. additional: Have you seen crab trying to get out of the boiling water as it dies? See your partial to your crab cakes! But then you eat that, so dont flake out when it comes to your crab cakes.

I found these two refrences follow links as to whether it works these sites seem to go into the science you got me intrigued http://columbus.bizjournals.com/columbus/s...22/smallb4.html http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1604251,00.html Hope this helps but as a rule cant you return a corked wine? Edit: 2 more links more about treating the corks first rather than the wine after http://lifestyle.iafrica.com/goodlife/wine/news/289486.htm http://www.cincypost.com/2002/11/19/wine111902.html As for a conclusion not my field also agree about whether its TCA and how it gets into the production! One link says not sure how it gets in the cork, guess someones going to need a corked wine and a kit Thanks Brad

Just wanted to add or perhaps clarify I once heard that in the UK we spend about 1 tenth of our income on food, where as the French spend about 4 tenths of there income! Surely its down to the majority if this is the case, we wont more for our money and the supermarkets will win. For until the majority reach the same expenditure as those in France presuming this is correct.(Though I was under the impression that it was slowly happening in France as well!) Price will be the driving force for the consumer. Would appreciate it if some one does know the relative expenditure of income on food in comparison to our European neighbours, if they could post the relative info or link!

Good point. I don't think this is an argument you can make. Nature is not sentient. You (hopefully?) are. That 200,000 people die in a tsunami doesn't make it more acceptable when 200 die in a car bomb. ← In context with the whole post it wouldn't get a response like this!

Good point. I don't think this is an argument you can make. ← And its not an argument I did make. An argument has premises and a conclusion. What I made was a statement of fact (nature is cruel), and a statement of opinion (if I were a pig, I'd rather be shot by a human than eaten alive by a natural predator), not an argument. I didn't conclude or even imply that since nature is cruel, therefore cruelty by humans is acceptable. You read that into what I wrote. ← And into mine edited to add: The cruelty was acted by the non-actions of the adults not by the curious child! As someone pointed out at some time most children go through it my brothers was moths and containers and various implements. For my sins mine has happened as an adult! As the human element has slipped in and that straight kill has become a mistake and twice the bang to the head or twice with the knife!

How many meat eaters would stop eating meat if they had to slaughter it? Just as I hate the principled vegetarian that drinks milk then condems the veal trade why do they think mammals create milk, what are we to do with the calfs, we're drinking there milk? As for foie Gras in comparison to the milk trade it's so tiny it's not even worth mentioning it's an artisan food and in comparison to the milk trade is minor and most geese and ducks have a free range life before the last few weeks of force feeding! In comparison to the dairy cow let me be a foie gras duck. No there is no reason to be cruel I use to work in a restaurant and the chef occasionaly shot wood pigeon not all died, and honestly I hated killing them(And I'm a chef) but I'd do it as quickly and as surely as I could. But there is nothing as cruel as nature, lets not forget we are part of nature and human, mistakes will be made. As for childhood curiosity think someone mentioned about the adults, that covers it all. It's a shame the pike didn't get it's teeth into the little blighters maybe the adults would off had a bit more respect. I think meat eaters have come to expect there meat on a styrofoam packet with cling film on, there is nothing nice about the slaughter of animals but if your going to eat meat then accept it. I Love animals the way the french do, but respect them dont pet them! Once a vegetarian

Sorry to offend

Hi All on expanding the subject with someone else they bought up these interesting points of veiws. So there may be many "precursors" of Nouvelle Cuisine, not only Point, but I do not think this is very relevant because I do not really believe in "precursors", the history of cuisine is not linear French cuisine did not begin showing an interest in clarity, purity and quality of ingredient just then. It had been doing so for centuries, only there were several styles of cuisine and the 70's chef just came out with this new style mostly inspired by their trips to Japan. I do not believe in chefs very much either, I think they are overrated as actors of cuisine history. As I have made my veiws and was interested in what others think on these points. As Bocuse(Is he one of the Fathers?) said "One of the tenents of la Nouvelle Cuisine is that the food must keep it's own taste, making the most of the original flavour" I dont believe that whilst we were using a strictly classic cuisine it dealt with clarity, purity or quality of the ingredients! Or that you can find another cuisine that does highlight the main ingredient, until Points influence. With out the great chefs what is the history of cuisine? Is it purely an expansion on peasent cookery? Stef

What about 'Pommes Soufflees' my Herings Dictionary 1972 16th edition says 2-3 times not sure what the Repotoire de la cuisine says I gave it away!

Not sure Pectin would work unless you doing fruit, have seen jellys made with just pectin(Perfect) but there soft not sure it would have the staying power, I've also heard the same about Agar. How often is a substitute better than the orig see Carob thread All I can say is I use to pick on the vegetarian for eating gelatine she never cared the cheesecake tasted good! I got a recipe that uses 4 sheets(Bronze) I know that I've replaced this with one packet of gelatine that sets a pint, for 1pt of cream, juice of 8 lemons, 4 whites, and 2ib of cheese, hope this helps think 2 sheets sets a pint to jelly that bounces There is 2 weights of gelatine silver and bronze, If I remember right 20 silver= 1oz, 10 bronze=1oz

Its defo classed as a Hazard both in America and here(It's classed as a carcinogenic)! http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc127.htm WHO document duplicated http://www.acrylamide-food.org/ Kinda of got the impression when it smokes and brings tears to your eyes this is when it's given off, in Buerre noisette(No bitter smell or smoke, when making) I would say there is a lot less, you just colour the residue. Though I'm still interested in whats happening when the acrolien and ammonia combine! And how many Chefs can say thanks to all that butter I cooked it shortened my life! Acrolien is now being measured by commercial food companies in products that are produced on mass scale it seems to turn up, when ever glycerol is broken down, telling you I've learnt more in the last 48 hours than I ever knew, it even is found in potatoes guessing its every where glycerol is cooked. It seems to be a subject that goverments dont know what do with it in relation to food manufacturing, do you just tell every one its in everything or monitor it and set bench marks for the industry! http://www.foodsafetymagazine.com/issues/0...colchem0304.htm Valid point about machine skinning, does leave a membrame! I have cooked it never really smelled of ammonia, but think we need a marine biologist here now, from my experience the membrame just makes it curl(I wondered what made it curl sometimes and not other times.)! You got me wondering though occasionaly when the butter flares or oils, seen this happen on Scallops it will give of a petroluem taste(espeicially if it's not put out), I'm hazarding a guess this is acrolien at work! Glad someone merged the thread, thanks who ever!

Guess it a bit like game some like it well hung others like not! I quote myself! But am interested is there facts to say that a fish creates more urea at different times and does it really affect the taste, I've seen no refrences to urea being in the flesh just with the skin? Have followed link from other thread(I've become fascinated!) to deep sea fishing and the correct preperation he just states proper removal of skin immediately and that it should never smell of ammonia if preped properly at sea! It seems lazy fisherman are the reason it smells we both agree that the longer it's left on the more tainted it becomes! My synospsis may of been wrong but it definitely seems to be affected by time, just how long the skin has been left on P.S. We carry on like this and we might finish what they started on the other thread, I personally would never go for a piece that did smell after I rinsed it, and wouldn't be happy serving it! Have found links for acrolien but apart from being a pollutant I also found this re 'When a fat is heated strongly in the presence of a dehydrating agent such as KHSO4, the glycerol portion of the molecule is dehydrated to form the unsaturated aldehyde, acrolein' Now what your dehydrating agent would be, the re KHSO4 is Potassium Hydrogen Sulfate but whilst cooking fish would Lemon/vinegar be classed as a dehydrating agent, I didn't know but after googling I found this 'Dehydrating agents, such as sulfuric acid, sodium hydroxide, calcium oxide, and glacial acetic acid(100%Not for chips) I am intrigued to know where you got your reference for acrolien, I certainly dont cook with any of those ingredients! The only other reference is to bad smelling wine I'm not sure I want acrolien in my dish its toxic.

As you said breakdown so the longer it's left the worse the smell will get, more time more smell! According to the other thread the Icelandics agree and wait for it to smell its worse which happens with time, surely this is an indication of breakdown, decomposistion? Though thank you for the reason why! Did wonder why it happened, though it also does it with fish thats got no skin but I'm guessing thats down to residual urea being left. Guess it a bit like game some like it well hung others like not, we'll never no the answer but someone in other thread never tasted before and just landed it and said it had no smell of ammonia, but that just backs up about skin being left on for to long!

Just checked Larousse Gastronomique, the book that first walked me through skate wing cookery, and am pleased to report that my memory's not playing tricks: Also, I've read somewhere that the reason skate is often served with brown/black butter is because butter forms an ammonia neutralizer when it browns. The reference is probably in one of my cookbooks, so chances are good I can cite chapter and verse if you insist. ← We're not in the early 1900's I would hope that a fishing markets have moved on a bit since then, I personally wouldn't touch anything that smelled of ammonia I love Skate and if when I'm cooking it it smells of ammonia I know it will taste of it from experience! Also there is no real refrences to small Skate being pan/fried just large Skate being poached, I know that as it comes in it smells slightly but on a rinse it's gone after several days the ammonia gets stronger until its unbearable. I've put Skate Buerre Noisette on a menu as special more times than I can count, I really do Love Skate and think it's under-rated! Now is this because too many people have eaten bad Skate? I accept what you saying just looked in Herings Dictionary and all the garnishes for Skate are strong flavours, Vinegar, Lemon, parmesan(All flavours used to mask) but now a days there is no reason for it to be strong smelling, surely if it was key component Bocuse would mention it and certainly not use it? He does add vinegar but looking at the recipe I think it's the same reason we add a bit to fish stock to set the fish protein thats loose in the water so we can skim it off rather than leave it on the fish! To add 200ml (thats one fifth vinegar)to every litre of liquor is masking, not the same as a few tablespoons per pint(Bocuse) Most of these recipes where designed around large skate and with travelling in those days I would expect it to smell and need masking, but with refridgerated vans there is no need now a days! Even Buerre Noisette we use a little vinegar my guess is that its the acid counteracting the alkaline(Ammonia) nothing to do with the butter, but I may be proved wrong thats just based on science!

The classic prep is poached. (If the raw fish has an ammonia odour, add some white vinegar to the poaching liquid. If the odour is strong, brine it for a while) ← If it smells of ammonia throw it away! I've never smelt ammonia in a commercial kitchen off skate, thats when we throw it away, it'll taste of ammonia with salt or lemon!

Only one way flesh is fantastic, comes of the bone in thick steaks(Flesh reminds me of Flank of beef, just no chew) when cooked But best way, is simply find a pan start cooking your fish when is done take out the oil add a good bit of butter, let it go nut brown, not bitter add a handful of capers and a little of there juice, a squeeze of lemon, pour butter over fish. Classic but the only way, failing that batter it and fry it I sit here dreaming of tasting Skate and Chips! As for expense it a big fish! Dont get wings that are to big 6-10ib fish are the best trim the thinnest edge with scissors, shouldnt get it with skin never seen it, think the sword makers use it for leather!

Me trying to find a few Refs, please correct me if some of my facts are wrong, Bocuse's father was Point Trained, Bise, Chapel being influenced by 2 of Point's chefs, Troisgros, Outheir, Thulier, Guerard may not of been formally trained by them yet the Troisgros's and Bocuse are the reason he persisted surely with these as friends he cant helped not being influenced! And from these we get so many of todays chefs surely for that reason alone he's done more than be part of a succession he was the source? As for his influence from Brazier I got it ref as 'concentrated on the more strictly traditional aspects of his art! Though I'm sure we could discuss cooking 2 star plus and criteria! I don’t believe that is it, just that he was a great teacher that he inspired many greats!

touaregsand- Hi nice to get some one else involved, but in theory Escoffier just refined what was there, the parties where there but blurred! Also with Escoffier you had the influence of Curnonsky how much word was taken on this great food writers comments, and from the impression of the opening of the Savoy it was grand on no other scale. As for teaching according to my copy of The Cuisine of Paul Bocuse he calls Point his master, so many of the three star chefs from the 70's where trained by him or trained by others who had worked for him, to a certain extent his legacy still lives, how many of his Protégées are still working! As we accept that Points influence to a certain extent moved us away from the great book, as it was written for a time of much extravagance! He if not created it certainly enforced beliefs higher than any other chef at the time about clarity and the produce! For chefzadi- I think I would simplify it and just ask who he thought was the last Chef/Person to create an impact on catering as it is today? Who was the great chef of the 1900-2000?

Does anyone else have a view, is Bocuse the greater chef, does anyone know what Bocuse thinks about it all? We all know his cuisine and for what he's done for the modern chef was ground breaking! You could link thread about Promo work, quite shocked that no one has mentioned him in the thread! For surely with out him there wouldn't be a commercial chef we still would be an unknown person working behind the scenes. Is he the product of a movement or the voice or the movement? Who out of the modern chefs will go down in history, will Bocuse's influence outlive Point's? Who was the last person to move cookery to a new level! Why is Careme a greater chef than Point? Is Escoffier not just taking on Careme's work any way? the structure of the kitchen was there Careme had been trying to get better conditions for Chefs, surely the Gourmet writer has a lot to do with the reputation of a great chef, you could argue that Escoffier took Soyer's statement "Publicity is like the air we breath, if we have it not, we die" and applied it to the Savoy like no other Chef had before! Surely Soyer did more for the kitchen or even Rumford, how much influence did the gourmet writers of the time have was it not them that lifted Escoffier to a world status?

I would agree but surely at the top of a pyramid is a singular! Therefore with the emphasis gone from a blended style of cookery very rich and extravagant, and now is about clarity of flavors and produce! Which was Point's style, are you saying that he's a movement? Therefore holds less status than Escoffier, is Bocuse the greater chef? For surely it wasn't just a trend? Prior to Point we were cooking very typically from a classic style, with no emphasis on clarity and produce. Flaws in produce could be masked by the Master Chefs.

Hi Kind of followed a thread where a few people started discussing Fernand Point's influence on Cuisine, I thought it would make an interesting subject! First I think we all agree that he was probably the first to highlight the ingredient, make the plate the stage for the produce, he also trained many off the others but is his influence as great as Escoffier etc? But surely with the emphasis on the ingredient in modern cuisine, we all follow his philosophy? Which would make him the father of modern cuisine, yet you could argue Paul Bocuse took Point's philosophy and shouted the loudest putting another chefs opinions into the limelight, which makes Bocuse the greater chef(If you got The Great Chefs of France think this topic makes more sense)! So let’s discuss what are people’s opinion? Moderator's note: The Fernand Point in Japan topic has been merged to this one to enable further general discussion of Fernand Point and his influences.

I'm saying that you / I / we should keep tasting. Cos is a very nice St-Estephe; it does it for you, but it doesn't really turn my crank. The best wines are the ones that we like. ← Have to say the other 2nd class you mentioned earlier teased me, maybe one day I'll get to taste it(Pichon-Lalande) I'm guessing it's in the same price bracket though, not every day wine. Stef

First off I was praising the consistency at the bottom end off the market not slating it I think its far more of a mine field if you spend a Fiver and ignore the Aussie Wine, secondly you've not heard my supposedly french accent*L* I can only apoligize for spellings but in my justification I'm a chef

Nice dig, but somewhat patronizing, don't you think? I have already drank wines from 19 of the 20 producers you list (Cape Mentelle has a really nice Zinfandel), but I like the Magill Estate and Greenock Creek bottlings better. Grange? Cos d'Estournel? Have them in verticals, but again, I like Hill of Grace and Pichon-Lalande better. I'm not too sure about your statement that there's better value for money with European production probably because I suspect that transport and EU subsidies and trade tariffs go a long way to making non-EU production that much more costly. I can make a parallel case for the reverse, though my argument would be based more on the strength of the Euro versus the US or Canadian dollar. I also believe that great terroir doesn't mean squat if the owners don't know what they're doing. ← I'm guessing your saying that I need to taste them over several years I have to admit I was lucky and ended up with a good year of Cos D'estournel but cant say that on a chefs budget I'll ever be able to afford a vertical tasting, as for pricing from my experience all I'm saying is that a mediocre year off a good American/Australia is about the same or more than a fantastic 2nd class wine, though got to admit still very new to the whole wine industry, I'd agree with your terroir i was just trying to give a general idea as those areas seemed to come up with single starred status according to the book I'm using