JohnL

This was/is a really informative thread--I learned quite a bit! I am a big fan of pinot noir and have a cellar full of Burgundy and New World examples. A few thoughts: (some generalizations--dangerous but fun!) It is still difficult getting over the French paradigm! I think that a lot of Cal and Oregon producers are finally approaching this grape in the context of their own climates and soils (terroirs). Also--I believe that French paradigm is a bit shakier than many would have one believe. At the very top levels Burgundy is pretty amazing and offers a complexity and ethereal flavors and aromas that I have not found in pinot produced anywhere else on earth. (isn't it interesting that this is the case with many other varietals-Cabernet/Bordeaux, Syrah/Rhone etc?). However, those examples are few and far between! After that things drop off a bit and I find that many New World pinots are often indistinguishable from their French counterparts. Maybe it's me but in recent years I have found that a number of producers in Oregon and California are making pinots that are increasingly more complex and interesting--wines that reflect more terroir. The problem in the past, I believe was vinyard locations (too much pinot produced in hot climes) winemakers reliance on too much American Oak resulting in clumsy rather simple and heavy wines. The same can be said of chardonnay. Williams and Selyem and David Lett were probably among the first to realize what American pinot noir can really be. I had an opportunity to taste an Oregon Pinot Noir against a French Burgundy years ago that reaslly turned my head around. I had bought and cellared the 1985 Eyrie Reserve and the 1985 Volnay Soixante Ouvrees (Pousse d' Or). !985 was a very good vintage in both Oregon and Burgundy. In 1995 I tasted both wines side by side (ten years time is pretty good age for Pinot Noir from good producers in a good vintage--time for each wine to develop). The result? I found it hard to distinguish one wine from the other! Both were beautiful expressions of pinot noir with balance and finesse. The flavors were so similar. The noses very similar (the Volnay had a slight edge). This experience led me to have a lot of hope that the winemakers in Oregon (and California) would be producing some superb wines. I have had a number of excellent wines in the last few years from: Williams and Selyem and Rocchioli in Cal and Ken Wright, Christom, and Patty Green among others from Oregon. Things seem to be getting better and better!

I don't have experience with the Donnhoff. Given it is a QBa from a very good vintage one would expect it to be a lighter wine of some charm. It is extremely doubtful this wine has or will ever "close down" and at just three years old it is or should not be "over the hill". My best guess is that it was not a particularly fine or interesting wine to begin with. I agree with you re: Beaujolais!!!

CherieV: Could a restaurant in PA buy wine from outside the state say at an auction in NY or Chicago and then put that wine on its list?

I have dined in Philadelphia quite a bit (though not recently). I do not recall the majority of wine lists I encountered as being priced too high. High side yes but not to the point of gouging. I agree that food is often marked up a lot: for eg: that bowl of pasta (no truffles!) may be $15 with an actual cost of a dollar or so. However the veal chop at $25 may have cost the place $20. We can do this forever. Fact is --there are a lot of factors in pricing food and wine. A scallop could be a dollar wholesale but if it is prepared with some black truffle and a sauce in a dish created by Thomas Keller then what is a "fair" price? Also people in PA may be used to higher prices having been conditioned to them because of the state laws! By the way--I checked out the web site for Striped bass--the wine list is there but no prices. No prices for the food either--went to a couple of Starr's (owner) other restaurant web sites-same thing no pricces listed for food or wine. I find that kind of annoying.

This can be a source of great frustration for wine lovers! I understand that restuarant wine service costs them overhead. The cost of the wine of course and glasses, and staff, and storage etc. And wine is a profit center for restaurants. That said--what is fair? I believe that the goal of a restaurant wine list is to sell wine. That is restaurants should do everything within reason to encourage people to order wine! The market is a broad one. For example wine lovers are more apt to spend money on food and wine--that is they are most apt to order say an aperitif, a bottle of white and/or red with their meal and an after dinner drink. For these people, a restuarant needs to make this fun and rewarding. That is an interesting selection of wines, half bottles, good quality of wines by the glass (especially sweet wines, ports etc), decent glasses, and a deferential service staff approach. People who do not, as a matter of course, order wine by the bottle--should and can be encouraged to do so via: shortened lists with flavor profiles or suggested food pairings noted. Half bottles and wines by the glass. The policy of offering a reluctant diner a taste of a wine to assure them before they actually buy the wine is good! For both groups a pleasant experience with wine service will bring them back! In fact-there are a few places where I find the food a bit lacking but the wine list and service is such that I return. Restaurants should look to increase volume sales of wine to make their profit and not look so much at pricing to do it!

I love this site! Thanks Cherie. Could you elaborate a bit on "open state" etc. also any opinion or comments on restaurant wine lists/markups etc. It is very interesting and informative to hear from a professional!!!

You make some very good and valid points. I am very familiar with Philadelphia and dine there frequently. (it is a great food town) Even with the state wine laws --there are many well priced wine lists. Striped Bass has always, in my opinion, had a list priced on the high side. So in the case of the Basa--it is possible that $44 is somehow justifiable--I would still have a hard time forking over that much for that wine. Regardless there are better values on that list--I would hope--again I have not been there in a while.

It all comes down to the purpose of the review. This gets into the editorial thing-- There should be a balance --I would hope that a review's main purpose is to "inform" and that the "entertainment" factor is secondary at best. Afterall isn't the raison d etre of the review to inform readers about critical areas of the dining experience so they can have a good sense of what to expect were they to dine there. Food quality--creativity--freshness-wine list-prices--cleanliness-atmosphere etc etc. The problem is, many critics today seem to be struggling to find new and clever ways to convey this information at the expense of clarity. A reader should be able to quickly read or glance over a review and come away with the appropriate information--this is reporting pure and simple. So I am more concerned with good writing vs bad writing with clarity most important in a review of a movie or a restaurant etc. An editorial piece is different as is an article --the writer has more leeway in these forms. I (and I would hope my fellow readers) look at the newspaper reviews for information (and a point of view of course) not to get a few chuckles or become awestruck with the reviewers ability to turn a phrase or show how smart they are! To bring this home-- Wells was, I think, simply using Robuchon as a point of reference--it was "tossed off" and I doubt, given her credentials, she was "showing off" it was her opinion and it certainly does not get in the way of the review--we can quibble over wether or not she should have elaborated a bit more or left it out, or wether or not it works as a point of reference but in the end I do not think it is a real problem. She is a good writer and she is a good reviewer--I think because she gets the point of each role!

You are making some good points. Parker took a consumer reporter's approach to reviewing wine and shook up the European establishment. The problem I see with many critics today is that they are inhabiting a middle ground between dispassionate reporters American style and the passionate advocates Euro style. They are reviewing restaurants but rather than dispassionate and "anonymous" they are attempting to be entertaining and --in today's world where celebrity is king (or Queen) the temptations are too great to overcome in the service of professional journalism.--these critics are "writing" not so much reviewing. It is happening across the board--from food to wine to theatre to music etc. I believe that newspapers and other publications have become "vehicles" for entertainment rather than places where good reportage is practiced. It is rare to see informed solid reporting anymore. What we have is creative writing --it all about the writer not the restaurant or movie etc. Again--the perfect example! Hesser--without making a judgement on her writing (where she has a lot of leeway) ther is a difference (or should be ) between her work as a food writer and her position as a reviewer.--it is dangerous to mix the two. --I am not sure the Times isn't encouraging or experimenting with this "new Journalism"--Gael Green is the pioneer in the area of restaurant reviewing--she was more important than the restuarant. anyway--I can see this going off in all sorts of directions --many off topic!!! so.........................

I agree with you re: Jackies Bistro. The food is very good family run place: Mom and Daughters run the front Dad cooks! One bizarre thing--Mom and Dad are from the Loire region yet there are almost no Loire wines on their list. They told me they could not sell them to their clientel! also You can get really great Indian in a magnificent setting at Jaipore in Brewster onb RT6. (I know--that's Putnam but it is just over the border), The owners also run Chola here in Manhattan and have just taken over an Indian restaurant in Elmsford.

Well made points. And while I'm not proclaiming we all become reverse snobs and drink wine from coffee mugs while thumbing our noses at those with the Riedel Sommelier series, there is something to be said for making wine more accessible attitude-wise. And you are absolutely spot on in the need to intiate newbies into some of the traditions. It is there that we understand a larger picture. ← Yes! We've all been "newbies" !! I remember sampling a red Burgundy at a formal tastting long ago. I burried my nose in a glass and proclaimed: "Wow what a nose--really interesting!"a gentleman of no less than seventy sitting next to me said in soto voce without even looking up: "It's sulphur..wait a few moments it will blow off." Sure enough it was and he was right. If I had not been taken with youthful exhuberance and been too self conscious to speak out I would have missed a valuable learning experience. If the gentleman next to me had ridiculed me for my ignorance it would have even been worse!!!!

I guess when in doubt: full disclosure is the best policy. Often times I feel the critic or writer (whatever) does not recognize potential problems etc. That's where editors come in (or should) given the culture today I believe that the real failings are most often the lack of good editing. Wells is certainly a well respected 'writer/reporter" and I believe that she is a reliable "critic" as well --this whole thread was a bit overwrought--much ado about very little. Incidently-- There may be something to a discussion about this out here--just who do we trust anymore? For eg--I believe that a lot of the controversy re: critics and reviewers--especially at the Times has more to do with the editorial direction (or lack thereof) than with the actual reviewers.

Yeah-$25 a bottle is about right. It is a good wine--wholesale must be around $5-$7 a bottle or less!!!! (love that three tired system we have)ps That's Striped Bass not Stripped Bass as I referenced in my post. Though my poor typing has led to a good idea for a restaurant extension next door featuring lower prices!!! (a la Nobu next door).

Yes! I think that one needs to define "Journalist" and "Critic". (and writer and reporter). --something probably best left to the Columbia Journalism review web site! If we accept that a Critic is practicing Journalism then the same standards that apply to a publication's reporters should apply to their critics/reviewers. Sounds simple enough. However--today nothin is simple. Reporters often cross over to columnist or writer then back to critic. In today's culture of celebrity I wonder if there are any real standards. For example (I really hate to use Amanda here) Ms Hesser was/is a writer who writes about food etc. under standards different from those applied to a reporter. When the paper assigned her to review restaurants she became a critic (different standards?). I believe most of the controversy around her stint as reviewer is founded in the fact that she remained a "writer" and did not adapt to the critic's role. (one certainly can understand the difficulty there). Then there are publications like NY Magazine wherein Gael Greene "reviewed" restaurants as a writer while the magazine employed "Critics/Journalists" to do the same. Most would not "read" Ms Greene's "reviews" in the same light as those by the other reviewers in the mag or in other publications. In the end is it possible to maintain these standards? Probably the most ethical reviewer/critic around is Robert Parker--he accepts no advertising or payments --uses his own money to travel and buy wines for review etc.--However it is known that he is a good friend of several wine makers/personalities--Roland etc. I suppose we just have to "trust" him in his ability to 'divorce" any personal feelings from his professional duties. Finally as some great writer (or was it a critic?) said wisely "Trust the Tale not the teller!"

Just got my July issue of Food and Wine featuring "Superstar chefs". There is a feature on " Best new restaurant wine lists" wherein a number of "new" restaurant sommeliers recap their philosophy and note a few food and wine pairings as examples. I thought most were interesting in both wine selections and food pairings as well as an emphasis on value. One stood out: for Stripped Bass in Philadelphia (I have had many meals under the old regime there all wonderful and have heard very good things about the new ownership) sommelier Lauren Bernardini notes she is shifting the list toward "funky wines that offer great value." then singles out Basa '03 (Spain) at $44 a bottle... Basa is a funky white that does offer good value--but evidently not at Stripped Bass! It retails for $8-$10 a bottle in the NY area. I'm sure that Lauren does have some bargains on her list but she selected a really bad example especially for a national magazine.

Bistro maxime! --had a number of good meals there-sorry to hear it has closed. Jardin du Roi--I actually like the place--we had two pretty good early dinners there--the ladies must have left after their lunches. One thing about Manhattan--there are few inexpensive french bistros left. Also -I forgot to mention Vox in North Salem (was Auberge maxime but has changed its style/menu under the same ownership). The old "Maximes" in Granite Springs closed and will be "Granite Springs Inn" --a good friend of mine is part owner and is managing it. (James Brown).

And the hits keep on..... Wow-westchester does get "dissed" by those smug Manhattanites! lol The more I return to this thread the more I am amazed. as I noted earlier there is probably a higher ratio of good to excellent establishments compared to NY. And the "city" does outdo Westchester at the top levels. I forgot about Luna--we go there often. I had a lousy meal once at Antico and am reluctant to give them a second try. Wasn't there a french bistro in Chappaqua? Is it still there? Also up North (above 287) there are lots of places: wonderful Italian in Cross River-Bacio. Restaurant 121 in North Salem is very good. also just across the border in wild and wooly Putnam is a really superb Italian: RRaci's. It's pretty this time of year--come on up before the leaves turn!

A little bit of ceremony is a good thing! Sometimes the "backlash" against tradition in the name of "demystifying" something actually results in a sort of reverse snobism! Remember the luddites! :-) Tradition is wrong when used to exclude-- it is good when those versed in it welcome and iniate newcomers. Anyway--priming the glass is probably not a bad idea--there is some merit-while at the same time it probably does not enhance the enjoyment of the wine to any great degree so as to be a requirement. I tend to "trust" the restaurant on some things and voice my preferences on others---like decanting--which I feel are important to my personal enjoyment of the wine. There is a lot of mysticism in wine--just look at the raging and endless debates about terroir! That's a good thing.

The best guess based on afn's description is sulphur. Funny but when I was "new" to wine I actually liiked the odor thinking it was adding complexity. I still favor that note of "merde" in French Burgundys--something quite different than sulphur however. Usually sulphur will "blow off" after several minutes in the glass.

Hi again! for Deli try Epstein's on central Ave Hartsdale. also Syon Kosher meat on Cenral Ave (same area) they have good takeout-Brisket, matzoh ball soup etc. in Mt Kisco there is "The Smokehouse" -i heard they supply Zabar's with smnoked fish etc. (they are near Lexington Square restaurant which is good too) also Mrs Greens Grocers--there is one on Rt 22 in Eastchester area they have Bubbe's pickels and lots of other good stuff. and I forgot you can get good Chiunese (especially dumplings at "Aberdeen" restaurant in White Plains. one thing manhattan does not have is a Legal Seafoods! there is opne in White plains stick to the simple stuff-their New England Chowder and Oysters are as good as it gets. They have takeout too. also City Limits Diner in White Plains is interesting. and a good book to get is "Hudson Valley Bounty" by Jan Greenberg It lists all sorts of food sources in the area--farmer's markets too.

William Greenberg Jr (Madison and 83rd Street). Sweet Melissa in Brooklyn also-- there a a number of places on Arthur Ave in the Bronx: Egidio, Artuso etc.

I didn't do that because: 1. I wanted to make the topic broad enough that people would at least look at the thread, thinking (foolishly) that by reading my first post the purpose of the thread would be understood; and 2. There is no such thing as a great local place in Bronxville, something I didn't need to be told. Here's the part I don't understand, perhaps someone can explain. You have a population that is generally quite affluent (if house prices are anything to go by) who are not so far from the city to be bumpkins when it comes to eating. So I'm sending the word out to all you would-be restaurateurs. There's a lot of money in them thar hills and precious little competition. ← "Bumpkins when it comes to eating"? I am a Manhattanite with a weekend home in Putnam County who has lived in Westchester and often shop and dine there. First-the comparison to New York City is simply unrealiustic--there are thousands of restaurants and food shops --understandable given the population density. I will say that most of these restaurants and shops are varying degrees of "bad" to barely decent. However that still leaves hundreds of good to excellent establishments. It is amazing how many crappy Chinese restaurants and pizza places there are in Manhattan alone! Westchester has far less people/density and fewer restaurants and food shops overall etc. I would argue that there is a higher percentage of good to excellent places in Westchester than is found in New York City. Also at the very top level of quality-new York City-can't be beaten. I would also venture that people in the suburbs dine out less often and often dine in New York City (lunch, dinner and theatre etc) quite a bit. Having said all this-a number of posters have noted some pretty good places--Westchester is a big county--yet only the surface has been scratched. As you get out and about in your new county you will discover many fine places. In fact a lot of delis and groceries sell bagels and bread etc from New York (Arthur Avenue Bakery products are widely distributed for eg). There are also some very fine restaurants--I would argue that Buffet de la Guerre and Jackies Bistro in Eastchester and La Jardin du Roi in Chappaqua are better than most such establishments in Manhattan. (yes NY has a few that are better-at the very top). Crabtree's Kittle House and Iron Horse grill have excellent new American food and Crabtree has a wine list that competes with the top liists in Manhattan. In Mt Kisco there is a very fine authentic Spanish restaurant La Camelia-- great Tapas on Sundays. Harvest on Hudson has good food (middle of the pack compared to Manhattan) but a view of the Hudson River that is stunning. And there are plenty of very good pizza places (Sals in Mamaroneck). Italian food? loads of places all compare favorably to establishments in New York. The Hayday Chain of gourmet stores (now owned by Balduccis) is very good (one in Scarsdale) Eastchester fish market is very good (the restaurant is fine also). There are farmers markets all over the place!!! (westchester actually has something Manhattan does not: FARMS!!!!!!!! And let's not forget: Blue Hill at Stone Barns --a lot of people would argue it is better than the Blue Hill in Manhattan. or Panatiere in Rye. (If you rue the demise of restaurants in Ny like Caravelle this is the p[lace for you). Oh by the way--there is a dearth of really good Chinese restaurtantsd however on on Central Ave in Yonkers : Hunan Village is very very good. and don't forget: you can hop in your car or suv and be in Fairfield County or just across the TAP in NJ and Rockland (there are plenty of culinary advertures there--Wayne Nish of March (in my opinion one of the top five restaurants in Manhattan) has become exec chef of Hudson House in Nyack! as ads for Peter kelley's restaurtants (Xavier's and frellance cafe in NY soon to open a place in Yonkers) state--"the Highest Zagat Rated restaurant for food in New York is not in Manhattan." (ok we can debate that forever) but hey the point is some very fine restaurateurs have discovered Westchesterites are not food bumpkins a long time ago! Good luck in you new home--you should have a lot of fun exploring the wilds of the the suburbs!!!

De Robertis Pasticceria First Avenue between 10th and 11th Streets! This place often gets overlooked but it is really special. Very good Italian pastries in a setting that is right out of the Godfather (part one). It has been around seemingly forever. Marble top tables, tin ceiling etc Real New York turn of the century flavor. Atmosphere is similar to that of Veniero's (East 11th Street between first and second aves) just down the street but DeRobertis is less crowded less touristy and the staff is less harried. Actually you can try both!

Spoken like a true food-lover, to say that Nyack is on the way from the city to Brewster! As for me, we now have another reason to cross the TZ. I'm really looking forward to this and hope it's a trend. (I'm sure you all know that Mike Anthony was the Chef de Cuisine at March before moving to Blue Hill. ) ← Well it is sort of on the way! :-) I did not know Mr Anthony was at Blue Hill! Funny--We have a res at Blue Hill for end of June--looking forward to my first time. I also want to go back to March soon--haven't been there in over a year. I have always thought march to be a great combination of wonderful food and interesting wines, great service and atmosphere. Let's not forget that Nish was doing "small" plates before it was all the rage!

You are right--too much attention to blurbs! These things are often arranged by publishers and are not initiated by the author (or blurbee!) or the blurber (or is it blurbist). The real issue is-is the reference appropriate to the review--does it enhance what the author of the review is trying to say.