JohnL

Ludja--next time we go I should probably consult with you. We have a pretty good knowledge by now but getting some help from a local is always a good thing! Agree with you re: Sonoma that is one of those great small towns. One thing we discovered is that for wine and food lovers Napa and Sonoma have so much one can easily get overwhelmed. My only regret--I wish I knew thirty years ago what I know now (I woulda bought a nice little vinyard....)

Phil--"in the thousands" really? You and jbonne need to lighten up a bit-i think. Most of the tastings I attend are seated. They involve no more than sixteen wines poured. Some people swallow everything some people spit everything and some people swallow some wine and spit some. The wines are discussed in depth. I have never seen anyone get drunk. I rarely go to mass tastings where hundreds of wines are poured. I assume those are what you refer to. In that case one should be responsible spit-- or swallow. I also believe that many people who attend these types of "stand up" tastings are there to enjoy themselves and have fun drink some wine-find a few they like etc--not to "professionally evaluate" wines. They shouldn't have to abide a bunch of winesnobs looking down their noses (palates) at them!!! :-) I say live and let live--we should all be able to enjoy!!!

It is pretty great out there! I would add a few things to my earlier post: 1--get a good guide book there are tons and do a little planning as you do not have a lot of time. 2--many wineries have tasting rooms the larger ones have tours. I would select a few wineries--mix it up some smaller ones one or two of the larger. 3--Domaine Chandon in Napa has a great tour it is a very modern sophisticated winery. also a fabulous restaurant for lunch or dinner--we did the tour and had lunch there. In Sonoma Inglenook has a nice tour--I would check the guide book(s) 4--the food choices are ridiculous--so many great places fancy and very casual. you can also get sandwiches etc and pic nic--loads of places especially in Sonoma. Healdsburg is a totally charming town--we had a great lunch at Ralph's bistro. 5--Napa is easiest to do because everything is basically along one highway. one town one winery after another. You will want to go back!!! I wouldn't try to do/see too much

At last! Some sanity! Thanks for your post --kinsey! Unfortunately, a lot of these issues have become politicized. Even more unfortunately we have a situation where in order to get the attention of the press/media, groups have to sensationalize their messages. The press/media then simply pass along the alarmist message without any scrutiny or fact checking so we often get two sides screaming at each other and us. I believe that we are exposed to all sorts of chemicals good bad etc. I also believe that things are never that simple. For example: Just buying from a farmer's market in no guarantee of anything. For eg--I once stopped at a lovely roaddside farmer's market in a very rural area of NJ and remarked that the tomatoes looked nice--the person at the stand informed me they were purchased in Brooklyn and had been grown in Florida! I also believe that many farmers use organic pesticides these are often chemicals (it is near impossible to escape chemicals altogether in this world). A lot of farmers use manure as fertilizer--people die from salmonella from these fertilizers. It just isn't a perfect world. so--I try to be as informed (not alarmed) as possible and I try to eat things in moderation. I buy things at supermarkets and I also buy things at farmer's markets and farm stands--I also try to buy things in season that are grown locally--and I wash everything I buy before I eat it!!!

From the 2005/06 Zagat's New Jersey Guide: Sonoma Grill 22 Food, 19 Decor, 20 Service ($47 avg meal cost) Find a piece of California California in Jersey in this East Rutherford wine lover's dream where abundant portions of delicious new american fare abound. the folks in charge have changed but folks still go for tasty provisions a taste of friendly yet unpretentious service and neat friday night jazz.

I am an "Easterner" (NYC) who has visited both Napa and Sonoma numerous times. just my wife and I (no kids). I like both Napa and Sonoma. They are different. We prefer to stay in Sonoma and to visit Napa. We also love the drive up the coast--into Sonoma--it is quite spectacular! One time we happened by when the seals had just given birth and we stood on a lovely beach just looking at a pile of seal pups! Also the drive along the Russian River is lovely. Sonoma is a big county and it is more "rugged" with not as much emphasis on wine as Napa--Sonoma has a lot of agriculture beyond grapes. Also--Bodega Bay and the coast are great as part of the drive up there from SF. The topography is gorgeous and very diverse. A great drive is along Dry Creek Road where there are a number of wineries (lot's of Pinot Noir and Zinfandel etc) that eare less commercial and more charming. (Preston, Rocchioli etc). The towns (save for Santa Rosa) are small and charming Healdsburg, Sonoma etc). In Sonoma there are many areas that have their own distinct topography that are wine focused--Dry Creek, Russian River, Alexander valley etc). Napa, on the other hand is very focused on wine there is one main drag along which there are many major wineries--it seems much more commercial and touristy. (not necc a bad thing) almost a Disneyland of wine! For eg--the Coppola winery had a museum of Coppola memorabelia--the desk from the Godfather, an oscar on diplay, a Tucker automobile etc and a large shop selling everything from Tuscan ceramics to t-shirts. (a kid might like this as well). Both Napa and Sonoma are enjoyable in their ways--Sonoma to me is more relaxing a place to take a long liesurely drive while Napa is a scene. By the way if you work it our you can spend a day in each--being from the East--my wife and I drove from Sonoma to Napa via the "Oakville Grade" I gotta say this was one of the most incredible hours I have ever spent in a car!!!

Congrats! I thnk I am ready to buy a copy. Recently I was in a friends wine shop in NJ. He is a conservative jew and we were talking about the middle east. I remarked that it is odd Israel does nor produce fine wines given the climat. And the success of wineries like Ch Mussar in lebanon. My friend led me to an area of his shop where there were several Israeli wines displayed and told me that israel could be the next "big area" for fine wines!

What kind of pan are you using? A paella pan can help. also I had the problem and find that a Paella needs to be stirred a bit. Not like risotto but it should be "tended". I taste the rice frequently. another possible reason is putting too many ingredients in too early. I usually sautee the rice with onions and some chorizo in oil until coated then add some stock and cook for awhile--then I start adding the ingredients according to their cooking times. With clams or mussels if any going in last. I make sure I stir the rice and that the liquid is evenly distributed across the entire pan. I gently "move" the rice at the edges toward the middle of the pan.

Geez has this thread 'wandered" all over the place. Interesting though. There are all kinds of "poor" people. They live in cities, suburbs and rural areas. Here in New York there are all sorts of "poor" neighborhoods. From Chinatown to Little Italy to Harlem and Bed Stuy. There are poor neighborhoods in the suburbs as well. Middle class and wealthy people live in many places. There are very few places in this country where someone can not access healthy food at all. (we probably can debate what the def of healthy food is too) I don't think access is really the key issue or availability or cost. It can be boiled down to personal responsibility. Raising kids and being responsible for them. The two oposing sides that sparked this debate: One side wants to make a case that people (especially the poor) are incapable of deciding for themselves therefore the government needs to "save" them by reducing their choices. The other wants to protect those whom the first group wants to control or ban. Folks who are interested in selling stuff that may not be "healthy or "good" for us. (rich or poor). It is probably not good for kids to watch too much TV the answer is not to ban TV's. I say we can decide for ourselves. All we need are some facts! By the way--the middle ground is "moderation". But there is no middle ground if there are no extremes!!!

I wish we saw more scallops in the shell with coral. even in NYC this is rare (I have gotten them at Citerella). My understanding is this renders the scallop even more perishable and that is the reason. Is this true?

The only reason to "spit" is to avoid becoming inebriated. If a tasting includes enough wine to do that then spitting is fine. If one is tasting a total quantity of wine equal to that which would cause one to become inebriated and that person does not want to be inebriated then one should spit all or some of the wine. Frankly wine tastings are more fun if the participants are a bit "buzzed."

Thanks Andrew-- The samples were interesting really! But--I think the focus on recently "bombed" out neighborhoods (Detroit) is misleading. And yes there are fewer choices--food--anything! However I would still argue that poor people in more stable and mature neighborhoods are not lacking for choices. Anyway--I think the debate is better grounded in where Busboy seemed to be going: This isn't a poor and rich issue--it is about education and taking responsibility for our kids and ourselves. The choices issue is secondary at best. In the end though--I am on the side of more not less. For everyone--rich and poor!

I think that's reasonable! We can argue over inner city food availability. Frankly-I have found a number of instances where suburban markets were lacking in good choices. I also think that there is less parent involvement among the poor and the rich in raising kids to appreciate moderation and healthy diet!

Andrew--I would love to take you around. Next time you are in NY. For decades there have been bodegas and Korean run markets in all neighborhoods of NY. There is a Fairway market in Harlem. I know Philly pretty well--It is not that bad really. Yeah you can pick out the most bombed out neighborhood--and I agree with you no choices! Poor people have cars too! I would love to see those studies you refer to. anyway-- I just disagree with your take on the issue at hand.

Tess-- I worked in a market here in NY that supplied inner city bodegas etc. There is plenty of good food available. I have shopped in inner city markets. Sure there may be lot's of situations that are different. You may have experience different than mine! By the way "little Italy here in NY both Manhattan and the Bronx are poor inner city neighborhoods as is Chinatown--probably two examples of an abundance of fine food and fresh!

I've just got one last point to make: even industry professionals are subject to the palate-deadening effects of high-alcohol, highly extracted wines. But you're also right -- many of the burgundies were likely too young to show well in the time constraints of the tasting. ← You gotta just trust me! Alcohol levels had nothing to do with it! The fact is the Evesham Woods was "Burgundian" it was not a fruit bomb. It was simply a better more interesting wine. In the end--I am basically with you--I just feel you are a bit "rigid" in your views of New World Pinot Noir.

This isn't about the CCF or the Center for Science (in the public interest)--by the way I know what motivation of the food industry is it is that phrase "public interest" that scares me more--but hey! that's me. Seems as though these folks are tryin to save us or sell us! Both are advocacy groups who rely on the media to reach us. Here is where I find the real problem. The media should be doing its job and for the most part aren't. That is sorting out all the facts and statistics used by the interest groups and giving us fair reporting. They aren't doing a very good job being lazy and worse. If the public got both sides of the story we can make our decisions. What is really disturbing is the thinly veiled attempt to "get at" the fast food industry (read deep pockets and loads of cash for trial lawyers) by creating an argument that fast food is addictive so people can't help themselves. I for one am tired of being told I am a helpless consumer manipulated by big business and having decisions made for me by big government or big courts! Here in New York I had no say in the ongoing attempts to eliminate tobacco use. I also find the belief that "poor folks don't have the same freedom etc" to be well meaning but also demeaning. Poor folks are plenty capable of making good (or bad choices). --I know a lot of fat wealthy gourmands who are "addicted" to fois gras! (I could be one) Is that ok as opposed to a poor person who eats too much MacDonalds? I believe we can all make good choices if given the correct info. I am not a fan of the Times but at least in this instance they have attempted to do their job and present two sides of an important issue. and we can debate it!

Hey--welcome to the real world! I for one, am glad that the food industry has a voice! There are always two sides (and often many more) to these important issues. There is nothing wrong with lobbying --don't forget--the Sierra Club is a lobbyist group same as the paper manufacturers and the lumber and home building industries. None are all good or conversely all evil! And like em or not--cheese doodles should be available to any consenting adult who wants em!!! as for the stuff about poor neighborhoods and food selection--here in NYC the hoods have some of the freshest and most interesting food products around! cuchifritos for all!!!!

I still wasn't referring to value--I was referring to quality levels. Alcohol levels have nothing to do with why those wines won (this is a bad word) the tasting I noted. The room was filled with very sophisticated tasters (I'll say I was one of the less so). A number were industry professionals. Those wines were noted to be more complex and showing better at that time. Several other New World Pinots (including the Panther Creek Reserve) were noted to be too sweet or over extracted. I didn't like the Dehlenger either. Interstingly my notes indicate I guessed the Evesham Wood to be a Burgundy! What is significant about tasting wines blind are it levels the field period. My experience is very few people can single out the Oregon or California or Burgundy wines with any consistency. The high alcohol issue is valid. To a degree. I also do not like the over oaked fruit bombs that are too often found in California and Oregon. Why I don't like them when found in Burgundy (and don't think they aren't there too). I think the real problem is later and later harvesting--over ripeness not so much alcohol per se. But these are problems with Burgundy as well. In fact--Burgundy may underferform if anything--take Clos Vougeot--the vinyard is the same but the range of quality is remarkable depending on the vigneron! From magnificent wines to obscenely overpriced drek! My point is--Burgundy has had a long head start in mastering the pinot noir grape. The Clair Gevrey VV you refer to is from seventy year old vines. I doubt there are many vines over thirty or forty years old in Oregon. We are just beginning to see what California and Oregon can do! Will they ever make a wine to rival La Tache?

I started on the road to paella when I made a rice pilaf in the overn. The rice came out drier and fluffier and more flavorful than when I did it the conventional way on a pot of boiling water on top of the stove! It was also easier. I moved onward to paella using a large skillet (not too deep) on top of the stove then finishing it in the oven. I got some professional assistance when i got Penelope Casa book on Spanish cooking "The Foods And Wines of Spain." this is considered by many to be a semninal volume on Spanish cooking. It is a great read and has really wonderful recipes. She discusses the history of paella and has recipes for several versions. (she also has a book titled "Paella" which is very good. anyway--after trying her recipes -I have reached the point where I can experiment and go off on my own a bit. This is something that is nice about paella--if you get the basics you can pretty much do your owqn thing with great results. Key: The rice is crucial --I use Bomba. (must be short grain). I also have found that smoked Spanish paprika added to the rice while it is sauteeing gives marvelous flavour! also you can get good results with a large skillet but a paella pan is even better-it has a wide flat bottom so the rice cooks evenly. by the way-paella is all about the rice not so much the other ingredients! I have recently been starting the paella on the stove top and then moving it outside to my wood burning barbeque grill --the heat and the smoke really add a lot of flavour. I just keep adding hot stock to the rice untill it is where I want it. (some [people prefer a wetter paella. (much as with risotto)--I like a drier paella. Chorizo is great as are peas--and pimiento or Spanish piquillo peppers from the jar! I recommend the "Spanish Table" website www.spanishtable.com you can get the Bomba rice (cheaper than my local Whole Foods! and you can also get all sizes of paella pans (they are cheap if you get the simple steel pans) these heat very quickly and evenly which is what you want. That yellow food coloring is Anatto seed" used in a lot of Carribean cooking. imparts color with not much flavor..good Spanish saffron is best though.

Here here! Let's step back a bit! The AFP piece is a very bad piece of reporting. (by the way the AFP is a French based news service)-- to cite "official statistics" with no elaboration no source and obviously no balance or perspective to the story is just bad journalism. World Hunger week is here! As is the requisite National Hunger week. So this is all part of the PR effort. (in and of itself no problem). But basically too many statistics are tossed around with no perspective for political gain. What we have is a large bash America effort. Guess who gets a lot of the blame for the poverty? Remember the "homeless crises"? Poverty statistics do not include all the money people recieve from the government. I have no idea how anyone can determine who "experiences" hunger. And what the criteria are? (by the way I am experiencing hunger now it is lunch time). Recently we were told that half of all Amerticans were suffering from mental illness!!!! so we are Impoverished, Hungry, Overweight and Nuts! I mean it is really =bad here--we all oughtta leave--for paradise like Sweden or France or Canada!!! Really, all those people from all over the wortld who are literaaly dying to come here must be crazy! But hey--remember half of al;l Americans suffer mental illness so these immigrants should fit right in!!!

I've found completely the opposite. Specifically, that there are fewer and fewer producers in California producing Pinot that is complex and interesting, and that prices in Oregon have largely risen to a level where the savvy Burgundy shopper can find similar-priced burgundies that are much, much better. The number of CA producers who are modelling their pinot on Williams-Selyem is steadily shrinking. The few names in CA pinot that I have some interest in -- Littorai, Arcadian, etc. haven't impressed me enough when I tasted them to make me shell out the $$$ to really find out what's going on there. I dropped off the Williams-Selyem list when the operation was sold. Maybe that was a mistake, but staying on didn't seem like a worthwhile gamble at the time. Dehlinger, Rochioli, Saintsbury, ABC are all hit-or-miss for me -- some wines over-the-top, some not. Not worth $50++ for a crap shoot. And that's the *good* side of CA pinot. The dark side...let's just say it's very, very dark...virtually indistinguishable from Syrah, in fact. These wines will never be ringers for burgundy, until they're all OTH at age 60. As for Oregon, there are still producers who deliver value there...Evesham Wood, St Innocent, Bethel Heights top the list IMO. Belle Pente. Amity deserves way more respect than they get. I haven't had the last few vintages, but Eyrie has always made classy wine. But the big picture here is that many are asking $25 for generic Willamette Valley bottlings, and $50 for single-vineyard wines. For $25, I could buy a number of 'lesser' burgundies that, for my taste, blow away these wines (Bourgogne Rouge from Lafarge, Georges Mugneret, or Cathiard, for starters). For $50, I can buy many different 1er crus that I find far more satisfying than Oregon wines priced at that level. I guess that's really where we part...our evaluation of the $25-$50 burgundy market. As long as you stay away from the 2002s, the prices are still quite reasonable. Recently $50 or under: 2001 Fourrier Gevrey Clos St Jacques 2002 Chandon de Brailles Volnay Caillerets 2001 Robert Chevillion Nuits Les-St-Georges & Vaucrains 2001 Henri Gouges Nuits Les-St-Georges & Vaucrains These are the kinds of wines that are "pretty amazing and offers a complexity and ethereal flavors and aromas that I have not found in pinot produced anywhere else on earth." If the price tag were raised to $65, that list would be much longer. Recently $35 or under 2001 Mugneret-Gibourg Nuits-St-Georges Chaignots 2002 Chandon de Brailles Ile de Vergelesses 1998 D'Angerville Volnay Taillepieds 1999,2001 Denis Bachelet Gevrey-Chambertin VV 2002 Fontiane-Gagnard Pommard Rugiens 2002 Fontaine-Gagnard Chassagne-Montrachet Clos St Jean 2002 Bernard Moreau Chassagne-Montrachet Morgeots For $35, there are very few Oregon pinots that can compete with these wines for balance, food friendliness and complexity. Not that there aren't any. But for my $35, there are only a very few Oregon producers that I would even consider giving my money to instead of Burgundy. ← I think we are approaching this from different perspectives with differing criteria. I never mentioned price or value in my post. I was merely making an observation that both California and Oregon were producing more and more interesting pinot noirs. I do not understand your comment re: California. Are you actually saying they are producing fewer quality pinots/going backwards? Then you note that Oregon has some producers who deliver value. But that these producers were/are few and far between. Then you get into Burgundy. I think you are stacking the deck here. Yes there are many fine wines at reasonable prices from Burgundy. There are also loads of overpriced wines and wines of poor to fair quality. Vintages are important--though less so with increasing technology and production methods. I think you are giving short shrift to both California and Oregon. I have attended enough blind tastings to dispel the notion that new world pinot noirs can not "compete" with Burgundy on a number of levels in terms of quality. And the picture you paint for these wines is far too bleak and unrealistic. If you are going to cite specific examples then we need to look at head to head pricing and taste blind. In 1998 for eg--I attended a tasting of Pinot Noir from Burgundy, Oregon and Caliifornia with a large group of very sophisticated palates. 94, 95 and 96 vintages with primier cru wines from Mugnier, Roty, Rion, Arnoux priced at $40-$55 a bottle. The three top wines--overwhelmingly were the Mueller Ranch 23 (California) the Evesham Woods Cuvee J (Oregon) and the Broadley Claudia's Choice (Oregon) priced at $25, $35 and $30 respectively. Now I temper these results by pointing out that the Burgundies probably will show better with some age. The upshot is: I think California and oregon are improving and Burrgundy is, well it's Burgundy!

From Clive Coates 'Grand Vins"" "The other was an experimental njon-vintage, foirst produced as a blend of 1963, 1nd 1964. and later presumably using some of the 1965, a vintage which never appeared under the chateau label. .........I must confess I am not enthusiastic. It must have been my misfortune to have aged bottles. Anyway the experiment did not last." I don't know when Coates tasted the wine but he notes it was not good;/over the hill. The book was published several years ago. At best this wine offering has some value as a novelty (albeit a rather expensive one!). For show rather than drinking. It is clear that Coates believes this was a "gimmick" devised by Bernard Ginestet who was the owner of Margaux long ago.

Your cat has good taste!!!