JohnL

Yikes......especially at the prices one is being charged for some BC reds (I saw a bottle of Mission Hill Oculus at the LCBO for $57 bucks...PASS). Not the flavour profile I am keen on in the least in my reds. Not sure if you have to walk by the Aussi section before you get to the BC reds but even some of the el cheepos from there have ripper fruit. I guess I must just be a fruit bomb kinda person. ← Ripeness is a huge factor in a wine's profile. The cooler the climate the more difficult it is to achieve adequate ripeness, especially for red grapes. In the northern climes red wines often do not ripen enough to achieve optimum alcohol levels and thus chaptalization is often utilized. This problem is present for wines from the Loire, Germany, Northern Italy etc in Europe. Conversely, grapes grown in hot climates may ripen too quickly resulting in wines that taste cooked or stewed. Also high alcohol becomes a problem. . White grapes do much better. Canada while probably not possessing much potential to be known for Red wines is gaining a pretty good reputation for fine whites--especially sweet wines. Also many people enjoy reds from more northern climes, preferring the higher acidity and lighter flavors and body inherent in these wines. There is almost a cult of folks that love German pinot noirs for example. SBonner makes a good point. Tasting a cabernet franc made in Canada (or say Long Island) vs one from California would, in most cases, reveal the differences climate can have.

I have to admit--I was suprised that so many in the industry are so jaded. I thought that the customer was always right! Restaurants are in the service industry. On the other hand it is understandable with all the stuff one has to put up with in dealing with the public that some venting is certainly to be expected. And a lot of it is pretty funny.

gee you are certainly welcome to disagree! "gospel" is a bit over wrought--I am not worthy. You brought your mom up and I am actually agreeing with her position as conveyed by you in your post. I think she was right and you were wrong. So where's the beef?

Thanks froggio for this rather encyclopedic posting. The Gros family is an extreme example to use, both in the number of related different Gros firms now, and in quality of results. As you seem to be interested in this stuff, a word to the wise is to be careful with quips re RP. He has strengths and weaknesses like most wine critics, but unlike most of them he also has ardent followers quick to accuse any critique of ulterior motives, envy, being in British pay, etc. &c. For entertainment value I'll quote a late scholar of ideologies and how they work. That's a big subject, not related to wine or critics, but it makes a larger point about followers. Ideologies, whether Positivist, or Marxist, or National Socialist, indulge in constructions that are intellectually not tenable. That raises the question of why [scholars] who otherwise are not quite stupid, and who have the secondary virtues of being honest in their daily affairs, indulge in intellectual dishonesty as soon as they touch [these subjects]. ... The various ideologies after all have been [looked at closely], and anybody who is willing to read the literature knows that they are not tenable, and why. ... The overt phenomenon of intellectual dishonesty then raises the question of why a man will indulge in it. -- E. Voegelin, after recalling his flight from the Geheimes Staatspolizei in 1938. ← Max! I took care of the Parker thing above! And Froggio--I also enjoyed the list. A question though. If there really truly is a "global movement..." then how is it you are able to list so many wine makers that are not "modern?" One would have thought everyone would be makin those early drinking fruit bombs!!! I thought Burgundy was goin to hell in a handbag. Maybe Parker isn't so influential after all! But really, I happen to like a lot of the producers you listed. I am especially glad to see Bouree on the list. The wines have always been hard to find here in NYC and I have always liked them a lot. You are also right on with your comparison of Bordeaux. As for aging Burgundy-- I have always believed that most age worthy Burgundies are best at under fifteen years age. we are talking pinot noir-- I would say that the vintage is a very important factor as is personal preference and taste.

How ironic that RP recommends to age fine wines when he has been part and parcel in the global rush to drink wines as soon as bottled. I remember tasting wines at a well-known Château in CDP and listening to the winemaker complain about RP coming in "an hour to taste from different oak barrels before blending what would ultimately be a single wine after bottling". ← well you can't say MaxH didn't warn you! I am not defending Robert Parker. He is pretty clear in his opinions. One can agree or disagree. I simply wish that folks would actually read those opinions and have some grasp of them before buying into some conventional wisdom. So here someone mentions a comment Parker makes on Charlie Rose and then someone jumps in to elaborate on the comments. Parker has always been clear on what he considers to be key factors in determining what makes a wine great (in his opinion of course). Aging ability is one. Perhaps in your rush to make a political statement about Parker you missed the word "excellent" in jgould's paraphrasing. You even note that RP recommends "to age fine wines"--note the use of "fine." so like every critic, Parker is differentiating between age worthy wines and those that are not. In fact, Parker has celebrated (and rated highly) wines that cover a wide variety of styles-- age worthy or for early drinking--he has high praise for wine makers like D'Angerville and Comte de Vogue the DRC and Leroy so where is it he is part of some global "rush" to make wines that are drinkable as soon as they are in bottle.(perhaps you really mean conspiracy not rush?). So where exactly is the irony? I also do not get your point about the wine maker's comments. Many critics taste barrel samples (even prior to final blending) so why is Parker noteworthy? Here's what I believe. There are too much polemics in wine today. Too many people have created a wine war: traditionalist vs modernist in which there is a zero sum game a foot. The belief is that one can not possibly enjoy both styles of wine--it must be one or the other! Many people do, in fact, prefer one style over the other. However, many people also enjoy both styles. As is often the case, the traditionalists see modernists as a threat to their way of life! because critics like Parker have seen benefits in both styles--the traditionalists can not accept anything less than orthodoxy--he has become a whipping boy. Again, ignoring all the raves and high scores for traditional style wines they focus on the fact that he also likes modern style wines. To bring this back to the topic at hand. In tasting Burgundy, one will find what one finds throughout most of the wine world. There are different styles of wines made. From traditional to modern and everything in between. Age worthy and early drinking. One will also find that generalizations with wine usually don't work. Interestingly, this thread has focused more on producers than on locations. The truth is, Burgundy is all about pinot noir and chardonnay (for the most part). it is simply a matter of finding those producers who make the style of wines you like. If you like the more traditional (I hate these inaccurate labels) style then there are plenty of wines from which to chose. If you like modern style wines--lot's of those too. (and everything in between). Not to ignore place, one can begin to look for differences in the various wines each producer makes. Most people (thank goodness) really do not care much about the politics and perceived or real threats to whatever. They simply want to enjoy the wine! Critics are interesting to read and can be helpful in finding one's way. Wine makers are entertaining--wanna really get confused? Put a bunch of wine makers in a room! It always ends up with you and a glass of wine and whether or not you enjoy drinking it.

I suspect that "green grassy" thing in red wine is a result of less than optimally ripe fruit. Not suprising given the cool climate. By the way, you are correct to attribute these flavors to "terroir." Terroir is more and more understood to be more about climate and how grapes ripen and drainage properties of the soil rather than some "mystical" transference of flavor from dirt and grass and rocks. Sadly, under ripeness has long been sold as terroir as an excuse rather than recognized as a flaw. If one likes green red wines that is fine. Actually, flaws in wine IMOP can often add to a wine's interest and complexity. Let's just be honest about what we are tasting.

Anyone who thinks that dining complaints are uniquely American should simply google the appropriate words--restaurant,dining, complaints, etc--with the country of choice. For those who are not up to it or are somehow googlephobes I include a link from our own Daniel Rogov on the subject. Rogov As for the link to the Washington Post piece, I read it and after a brief period of thought, I believe the patron was justified in his complaint (he may have overstated his displeasure using the word "ruined"). It is generally not good policy--at least in a so called fine dining establishment--to crowd diners together in one part of the room when the place is half full. Most customers appreciate a restaurant that is concerned with privacy--within reason of course. IMOP, the owner responded appropriately--I would suggest a re reading of his comments. He clearly understands the problem and the diner's complaint as legitimate. I really do not like when people fall back on stereotypes. "Americans (of French or British or Chinese....) are this or that." I will use one here though. Many Americans seem to revel in self loathing about their fellow countrymen and women. it is never about the self loather--afterall they are "enlightened." No the self loather is embarrassed by his fellow Americans. We "don't know anything about what we are actually eating"? First, this is a pretty broad generalization--it implies we are ignorant of food and that somehow the rest of the world is not. I believe this is wrong on both counts. As for knowledge about the "inner workings of a restaurant." I don't get this one either. One goes out to eat one has expectations and those are met or not met. Does one need to know about the inner workings of an automobile or a computer to be able to ascertain if he or she is happy with the performance of either? The fact is, IMOP, your mother was right to be put off by the service. The restaurant was open (an hour before closing?) they accepted your party. Regardless of the time the restaurant should have provided the same level of service whether or not you entered an hour or one minute before closing. One could say that if one enters a restaurant one minute after opening one should be patient as the staff is still busy with polishing silverware and dicing garnishes. So mom was right. Saying that she is ignorant or demanding because she expected to be served properly in the restaurant IMOP is excusing the establishment for being rude and arrogant. Restaurants are about customer satisfaction and service--in fact, they should have provided an even higher level of service under the circumstances. If you entered any store or retail establishment--say-- to buy a car or a computer and had to wait while the staff went about the business of closing up--ignoring you--would you be so "understanding"? My advice--listen to mom!

Perhaps you have seen a mad geranium? Seriously though, the article does bring up a number of issues related to our foods and their sources and what can be truly called organic ... ← I hate it when plants go mad! Yes the issue is important, however, attempting to use terms like "organic" is sheer folly. The problem is defining these terms. They end up becoming confusing and worse meaningless. They are more often than not, used by producers to justify charging more.

Correct .. but one can't be terribly certain that in the (rapid) processing of body parts of the chickens, some spinal tissue doesn't get mixed in with the rest ... maybe it isn't a cause for concern but it made me think and thinking of BSE always makes me, heaven should pardon me for this, 'nervous' .... ← Do chickens get mad cow disease? Are fish in danger of getting bird flu? If a human gets mad cow disease from a cow and is eaten by a shark would one be in danger when ordering shark fin soup? I am about to become a vegetarian!!!! Wait! Isn't fish meal used on plants!!!???

Yes. The US is seeing rapid growth of interest in wine and food. The wine world is becoming more complex. More countries are producing more different wines in more styles from more varietals than ever before. We are seeing more and more specialization. Employers --most restaurants and retail shops can not afford to spend a lot of time educating staff. A formal certification or degree at least assures them of a certain level of knowledge. That said. I firmly believe that the industry needs to focus more on customer service and sales technique. Nothing is worse than encountering a wine geek salesperson (formally or informally educated) in a retail shop or in a restaurant who is all about impressing you with their wine knowledge. Unfortunately, formal education often imbues people with a sense of superiority and they become self important. Selling (anything) is about the customer--understanding their wants and needs and meeting/exceeding them. Bad wine service can ruin an otherwise good dining experience in a restaurant. In a retail shop, it can drive away customers.

Wasn't the feeding of animal body parts one of the causes of bovine spongiform encephalopathy or Mad Cow Disease? ← I will be avoiding shark fin soup! (what about land sharks?)

I am no apologist for Wal Mart but your comment about "locking workers up" needs some perspective. Most of the worker abuse stuff is coming from labor unions who have been shut out of Wal Mart, via well orchestrated PR campaigns. Most retailers large and small union and non union lock their doors at night while employees are working. There are, as required by law, emergency exits that are accessible to all. As for what employees are paid (or not paid) as a criteria, this is a much more complex area and beyond any real discussion here. Suffice to say, citing Wal Mart for "worker abuse" as a comparison to TJ is really stretching the definition of abuse. TJ has a very interesting strategy. They are selling mostly private label stuff the quality of which one can debate endlessly. The only real comparisons on quality and price one can make are with other retailer's private label items--almost impossibly involved. They basically, are attempting to convince consumers the TJ's branded items are equal to or better than other's branded items. it is hard to compare bulk pistachio nuts or olive oil for example. We know what Wal Mart (and other retailers) strategies are, they are pretty up front about them. --brand name items at low prices and we know how they get there. Oddly, Trader Joe's is owned by a huge multi national chain based in Germany who have a similar lowest prices approach to Wal Mart. TJ's--here-- on the other hand are taking a more mystical approach. The more apt comparisons to TJ's are operations like Stew Leonard's here in the NY, NJ, CT area and local chain supermarkets. I shop occasionally at TJ's and frankly, as I have noted elsewhere here at eGullet, I don't see what the hoopla is all about. Sure there are some good buys but there is also a lot of crap. In fact, an outfit like Stew Leonard IMOP is far better across the board as well as Stop and Shop.

I agree CherieV! While the ultimate measure is what one does with one's education regardless of how one obtained it, there are benefits to a formal certification program. Passion, diligence and hard work can't be taught (or learned). A good salesperson can, IMOP. sell anything--it is not the product knowledge part that is critical. It is the ability to deal with people and their needs that is key. Customer service. That said, I believe there is a place for some sort of formal education and accreditation in the wine business at all levels. I agree that formal education is becoming more important to employers--I see more and more job listings requiring some sort of certification or another.

For "something different", I would recommend "The Art Of Eating" Ed Behr's quarterly publication. This is an incredible effort that deals with the world of food and cooking and eating and wine from a true connoisseur's perspective. The pieces are wide ranging and detailed offering the reader a real understanding and perspective. (there are recipes as well). I honestly can't think of a publication that equals or betters what Art of Eating does. The publication has been discussed here at eGullet quite a bit.

An "honest debate"?? You must be kidding. Would you actually even listen to the chicken industry or the veal industry? seems you (and others) have already decided the case. The debate should start with a perception of animals as equivalent to humans. (with "rights"). For example, is keeping a fish confined to a tank for one's viewing pleasure a criminal act? Resolve that debate first then one can go on to food production.

What I find interesting is what is left out of the headlines. Anyone actually reading the article linked will see that this study is far from conclusive. Everything we do in life carries a risk/reward implication. This is not just about increasing our life expectancy, it is about enjoying life and the quality of life. If we choose to live by statistics then I suggest we stop toying with diet and get serious. One should never get into an automobile or ski or go rock climbing. The truth is, we take the things we enjoy and make them safer or we simply decide that the reward is greater than the risk. A decidedly personal decision. I for one, believe that grain fed beef is far better in taste and texture to supposedly healthier grass fed organic beef. I chose to eat less but I will not forgo the pleasure I get from enjoying a great steak. I also find most so called organic, free range chickens to be tough and tasteless--but that's me. I refuse to live in fear and fear is what is used everyday to sell books and so called documentaries. We are supposed to believe that any large food company is part of a plot wherein government and big business conspire to kill us. (add conspiracy theories to the mix is a sure fire way to get attention). I remind everyone of Dr Paul Ehrlich and the population bomb scare of the sixties and seventies. He was dead wrong--his interpretation of statistics created fear and sold millions of books. The famines he predicted never happened mainly because the evil empire of agribusiness developed means to feed more people. The incidence of famine actually decreased! It is good to have information about what we eat--information helps us to deal with that risk/reward thing. But listening to people who take statistics and use them to advance a cause or a theory should be listened to with more than a little skepticism. In just the last few years we have been told by groups with serious sounding names and lots of "credentialed" members that various things we eat are literally killing us. Yet life goes on. We are living almost twice as long as we did before the industrial revolution and that life, for most, is far far better. Food production is improving in efficiency safety and quality. maybe not as quickly has we would like but it is improving. I simply can't panic every time my local newspaper screams that a new study "indicates" that such and such is killing me or I will get a horrible disease if I continue eating something. I can't go to bed each night worried that McDonald's and Monsanto and the chicken or beef industries are conspiring to kill me. I am skeptical of dire predictions of death and disease and claims of epidemics--I am still waiting for the bird flu to ravage our population! I am going to eat a big juicy corn fed dry aged prime steak every once in a while with a bottle of good red wine and a baked potato with lots of real butter and I will end the evening with a cognac and a good cigar. I may even have some foie gras as a starter! Will I do this every night? No. But it's my choice.

What's wrong with that? You could say the same about most of the best Italian or French restaurants in NYC. ←

A teaching opporunity ... Would you mind expanding on the above quote with respect to sherries? Why would PX sherry not benefit from bottle aging where vintage and similar port, also a fortified wine, certainly does? I have some notions but would rather hear from a more experienced source, which I certainly am not, first. ← The whole idea of sherry is that it is a blended wine comprised of wines of different ages--via the solera system. The goal is to produce a wine with a character the blender has deemed ready to drink when released in bottle. The aging has been done for the consumer. Tawny Ports are --similar to sherry in that a blender has "created" a wine with the character of a certain age--20 year old to forty year old etc.-they are ready to be drunk when released. The wines have been aged in wood prior to bottling. Vintage port is released when it is young--there is very little aging done by the house or blender. The wines spend two years in cask and are then bottled. They can benefit (most do) from additional bottle age, maturing much like unfortified still wines. Thanks for pointing up the flaw in my post--I have edited it to clarify. Actually Craig Camp who posts here is much more capable in explaining sherry etc. I recommend his website--some good info there. (you can google him or find his site address here at egullet).

In terms of execution --good ingredients and cooking: IMOP Chola is doing the best Indian overall. Would love to hear how your meal there was. Dawat is very good but I wonder if it has slipped a bit over the years. I have also had some terrific meals at Tamarind. Tabla and Devi are in a different class. I have been disappointed with Tabla which IMOP was never really about Indian food--maybe Indian "style" food. (I haven;t been in a while). Devi is modern Indian as interpreted by a very talented chef--IMOP its more about the chef than the actual cuisine.

Hormones are not allowed to be administered to chickens per FDA regulations. ← Well said. there are so many variables that these "links" really need to be taken with a grain of salt. (actually salt has been linked to....) a number of posters have noted some of these variables--how about genes? By the way--who is eating "more than one and a half portions of beef a day"? Oddly we seem to be living a lot longer today with all the hormones and other "bad" stuff--how about all those chemicals in the air we breathe?!--- than we did prior to the industrial revolution. We are also leading much better lives quality wise. Key "links" to any increased incidence of cancer these days can be attributed to longevity and better detection. (not to say we should not improve food production methods and clean up our environment--but how about a little perspective).

1. Pedro Ximenez is both a grape varietal and a type of sweet sherry. 2. See #1, or this entry on Wikipedia. 3. Many Sherry producers in Jerez make P.X. 4. It tastes raisiny, in my opinion. 5. It varies but about the same as your average Port or other fortified wine. 6. Most definitely but like anything else it depends on the vintage and the producer. 7. Definitely possible. ← Couple of small corrections: PX is usually a sweet style of sherry. However, there is a dry fino made from PX by Alvear. I have a few bottles and am anxious to try it. PX like all sherries is a wine created via a solera system-- it will usually not benefit from aging once bottled. The Spaniards use a solera system which allows for the use of blending older wines with younger wines. The date on a bottle usually indicates that some of the sherry in the bottle will be from that vintage. (this is often a tiny amount of the oldest wine)

A few weeks ago I was perusing the shelves at a Barnes and Noble and saw your book. I saw your book. Given that probably the last thing the world needs right now is another book about wine and the fact that my wife is close to tossing me out--our bookshelves are rife with wine books--I was only moderately interested in your effort. I opened the book and briefly flipped through it. The real test for me was how you handled a few somewhat controversial issues. You came through with flying colors and I bought the book. Even though you are dealing with a rather basic level of wine appreciation, and I have heard most of the anecdotes and am familiar with most of the subjects you address, I do find your approach to be very refreshing. You basically allow the wine makers to deal with the argy bargy (talk about snake oil salesmen --and women) and then remind readers that it always comes down to what's in the glass before them that counts. I also enjoyed re visiting familiar territory because of your approach and the nice accessible style--a great read. congratulations on an effort well done! ps I made a deal with my wife--your book goes on the shelf replacing a few Hugh Johnson pocket guides from the seventies.

Tim, IMOP you at least attempt to address the opinion expressed in the GQ piece. The problem I have is most people here seem to want to simply attack Richman and discredit him without having to deal with anything he says. After all these are just opinions. There is more than a little truth in what Richman writes about NO (IMOP of course). I would also note that most any city anywhere would not be immune from criticism (I'd love for someone to list the perfect places!). NO has been long overdue. Anyplace worth its salt should be able to take criticism. Interestingly, no one has really offered a rebuttal to Mr Richman--everyone seems to just want to attack him. Just what is cajun and creole cooking and how is NO presenting these so called native cuisines to the world? NO has long promoted itself as a party town--mardi gras, superbowls, strip joints, carousing around with mixed drinks in open containers, conventions etc etc etc. where's the culture? The food is amazingly overdone--with all the great fresh ingredients available why the heavy cream sauces and over kill in so many places? I definitely recall a lot of fifties style French food. Is there a side of NO we are missing? (that Richman missed?) By the way, if this is what the tourists want there is nothing wrong with promoting it! It would be nice if we stopped attacking the messenger and deal with the message!

From the piece: "Of course, there's the food. I am not certain the cuisine was ever as good as its reputation, in part, because the people who have consumed, evaluated and admired it likely weren't sober enough to know what they were eating. The food can be praised for distinctiveness and historical significance, both noteworthy, but the the restaurants were going in the wrong direction before the hurricane--think, if you are old enough, of French hotel food of the fifties. Too many luxurious restaurants were desperately trying to attract business by serving meals that fulfilled some illusory idea of what traditional cuisine should be. A local joke says it all: New Orleans has a thousand restaurants but only one menu." I wish folks would read these pieces before forming opinions on them. Richman is provocative and opinionated--he's a critic for gosh sakes. One may certainly agree or disagree but one should at least read the entire piece and think before declaring the author to be some sort of uninformed dolt. (he may be but the case needs to be made with at least an understanding of what Richman is saying. The roux silliness is just that -IMOP-silliness. he knows what a roux is and he also understands the historical context and the culture. He knows exactly what he is talking about. Again one can disagree and debate but attempting to discredit Richman won't work. he did not get to where he is by being uninformed. Also, he is not dissing the natives here. He is dealing with how NO presents itself. The hint here is that maybe it is NO that is selling their heritage (cajun and creole) short in their attempt to draw tourists. Again, Richman can be thought provoking if one just takes the time to read what he says and actually think about it. (then a well informed rebuttal can be offered).

Me? Ire? I agree that there is no place on earth where all the wine produced (at any price point) is good or bad. I also believe that france has set some very high standards for all types of wine. However, you are IMOP falling into the trap when you say that French cultural heritage won't tolerate bad food or wine. I prefer to believe that all people's are capable of good and bad. There is plenty of bad food and bad wine to be found in France. Also lot's of terrific food and wine. (I do agree that there may be a higher incidence of good food in some places--I just can't get into quibbling about it). That's part of the problem. For too long, the French have been overselling their wines at inflated prices. It's French it must be good. Too many people spent a lot of money wading through mediocre (and worse) French wines--Burgundy is notable--to get to the real gems (and what gems they can be). Notions of terroir have been used to excuse bad wine and inflate prices. We have relied on importers who convinced the wine makers to adapt better techniques and make better wine as a good indication of quality. I also believe that in today's growing market for wine the French have had a difficult time competing. Thus the EU is mandating vines be ripped up and thousands of litres of wine be turned into industrial alcohol. I doubt that in local wine shops throughout France one could find many labels form other European countries let alone the US and Australia etc. no competition leads to mediocrity. This is all changing. In the end I believe the French (and Europe) will emerge and we will see many more good examples of wines at all price levels and many styles of wine making. By the way, there are problems facing the rest of the wine world just different. My cellar is full of French wine (and wine from all over the world) I prefer to enjoy wines because I like them not because they conform to some vaguely defined concepts of terroir or Frenchness (or Italianness or whateverness) or because they are deemed "grand cru" or some other classification. I wish we could stop broad generalizations and stereotypes and enjoy the best everyone has to offer.Food wine etc. There is an amazing amount of really good wine from all over the world reaching shelves--this is a great time to be a wine lover! By the way--you are living a dream--retired in France!!! You could do a lot worse!!!