Sarah Phillips

Yes, and Squirrelly Cakes, if her recipe has too many carrots in the batter, I have seen this happen time and time, again, especially when the batter gets too deep. A common syptom is that the recipe will dip in the middle. It happens with carrot and zucchini bread, even if baked in a loaf pan. The tendency is to want to add in as much as possible, but there's a limit as to how much a cake structure can handle without it dipping or losing its structure.

Hi, Squirrelly Cakes has given you some really good advice, and has spent a lot of time with you on baking911.com. Since you posted your question here, too, I thought I'd add. There are several possible solutions to your problem: 1. The fact that your cake has a slight dip in the middle and is lopsided says to me that a 3-inch cake pan is too deep for this type of cake batter, because this type of batter is very (maybe too) dense and "wet" for a deep pan. To bake this type of cake recipe in a deep pan, you may need to adjust the batter - use 1/4 to 1/3 cup or even 1/2 cup less grated carrots, and it will help with the dip in the center and the lopsided look. I think this will be true whether or not it's baked in a convection or a conventional oven. 2. Or, bake the batter as is in 2-inch high cake pans in the convection or conventional oven. 3. And, mildinsanity has good advice. The cake is also very dark on the outside. Did you reduce the convection oven's temperature by 25 to 50 degrees F? Perhaps the cake can be baked in a 3-inch deep pan in a convection oven as is, and adjustments need to be made with the oven and/or shelf position itself, as you asked, and which I can't answer. I know you have been getting used to your new convection oven and it may be as simple as knowing how to use it! All I can do it look at the cake itself and its symptoms. The dip in the center of the cake is a tell-tale sign of batter with too much liquid - probably from using too deep a pan with too many carrots. The dark outside and your telling me that it didn't bake well in the center, also tells me that the pan is too deep and/or there is a problem with the heat source. I know recipe bakes fine in a 2-inch deep pan when baked in a conventional oven, and will probably bake as well in a convection oven in the same size pan.

Oh...not so fast. I would have recommended refrigerating this type of unfrosted cake. Sometimes it's best to refrigerate carrot - vegetable - fruit puree, oil based based cake layers, even if its overnight -- it's summertime and I would strongly advise it leaving it at room temp, even with the air conditioning on. If the room is humid or warm or it's summertime, which it is, you want to refrigerate it. It's to help prevent mold from forming on the cake because it's espeially moist, which vegetable/fruit puree cakes are. Sometimes I even freeze these types of cakes overnight to help prevent really sticky, mushy tops from forming on the cakes, especially when stored at room temp encased in plastic wrap during the summertime. They attract moisture like sponges and plastic wrap makes an environment like a hot-house. At least wrap the cakes in foil. Oil based cakes such as carrot cakes, will not dry out very much when refrigerated, so you need not worry. Wrap in foil. P.S. The cake looks simply wonderful and delish! I'm drooling! ~

Yep, Squirrelly Cakes is correct! You can also try making my Frosted Fresh Cherry Layer Cake Recipe and using strawberries, instead. http://recipes.egullet.org/recipes/r1360.html But, there's no need to adjust the water content of my recipe or anything else; I developed it (tolerances in the recipe) to handle different types of fruit. Canned and drained pineapple is delicious, too! But, I have found baking strawberries into a recipe never really turn out that well or impart a vibrant flavor, except for Caroline923's great tips or if I use strawberry puree (I can't think of the other type--it's like puree), strawberry jam or syrup. (And, no thank you to Kool-Aid as a flavoring aid!) There's also strawberry flavored oil (whic is vibrant) http://www.lorannoils.com/Products.asp?Cat...Name=Flavorings , too, as well as extract, which I don't like as much as the oil. (As with all flavored candy oil, use a small amount. I start with 1/4 teaspoon per recipe.) If you use whole strawberries, there's no need to toss the berries in flour for my recipe because the batter is thick enough to suspend them and they won't sink to the bottom. (Is that why you do that Caroline923 or is there another reason for coating in flour? Does the flour coating help them bake better in some way?) Edited to add: But, I tend to agree with Patrick S. that its hard to make an excellent fresh strawberry cake. But, try my Ultimate Strawberry Butter Cake Recipe Variation that I posted a few posts up in this thread and see what you think.

I have the Ultimate Strawberry Butter Cake Recipe Variation that Berta invented, if you wish to try it: http://www.baking911.com/recipes/cakes/but..._variations.htm

I feel it would be beneficial for you to go back to the original recipe I posted and try it as is, without making changes. Once you've seen how the recipe performs then start adjusting. Changing the juice of the orange for the milk changes the nature of the muffin, I feel. For what it's worth, I have never had "vertical webbing" with these muffins and they always have a lovely domed/moon top. If you find they are a little bitter (I haven't but you are looking to match a specific muffin) then take one or two slices of peel/pith from the orange before processing. Also, the last few times I have made these using navel oranges from California, removing the "navel" when cutting the top off the orange. ← Cadbury, You are absolutely right. Before I ever create a new recipe, I always bake existing recipes as is. Yes, changing juice with milk will change the nature of the recipe - its texture, flavor, etc. I also noticed with the change in milk your muffins had a slight dip in each center -- look at the photo and you will see. It's a symptom of something going on inside.

Yes, I am a fan. I have developed hundreds of baking recipes, for industry and for publication in my books, articles and for my website. Many have been technically very difficult to do, and I know a lot about flavoring in baked goods because I have also done a lot of low-fat baking and published in the area (once you lower the fat, flavor goes out the door). I do all-natural baking and try and achieve the best results from those types of ingredients. Achieving flavor goes hand-in-hand with texture and mouthfeel, and I believe that the most important aspect is to develop the recipe's structure and texture first, and then flavor is easier to achieve. A lot of flavor can be obtained through flour, fat, sugar, leaveners, and the other ingredients; adding orange peel or oils are just icing on the cake. If the texture isn;t right, then flavor is much harder to achieve.

Rodney, I have been in the food industry a long time and know what goes on. But, egullet.org seems to be a bake-from-scratch site that focuses on all-natural baking, so don't be shocked when others comment on your use of Kool Aid in a recipe. This is not an industrial baking forum, where the use of MSG and synthetic products are discussed, and how to use them in a baking recipe. My point of view happens to be the same as egullet's. On my website, I also promote bake-from-scratch baking using all-natural ingredients and how to get the most flavor from those types of ingredients. So, yes, you may discover the best flavor and color from using Kool Aid, but it's a recipe I wouldn't use or eat. Nor would I create a similar recipe for publication in my books or articles. I use orange oil or orange peel for flavoring because it fits into my philosophy of all-natural baking and the orange peel fits in to my lifelong philosophy of using readily available ingredients. Orange oil is expensive, but I have bottles that have been int the refrigerator for 5 years now. All I do is add 1/4 teaspoon to baking recipes. I use drops of lemon oil to flavor fish dishes, drops of lime oil for drinks, etc. They're all natural. They fit in with my philosphy of all-natural baking. That's all. So, I suppose the audience you are creating your recipe for is not for me...It's for a coffee house person or diner who doesn't care about all natural baking. All you are trying to do is discover how to get the most orange flavor, no matter what.

The leaveners in a chocolate mufin recipe play a huge role, not a lesser role as you write, as they do in any recipe. The type used, along with Dutch-process or natural cocoa powder along with the type of chocolate, play a huge role in whether or not a chocolate muffin will dome (puff) or not. You have to look at all the ingredients as a whole, not just one by one. A typical moist pound cake will rise with a nice central dome and crack down the center, so I disagree that a classic pound cake type of recipe has less doming - it has more than a high fat and sugar recipe. Chocolate cake-type muffin recipes will tend to bake with flat tops, as will similar muffin batters. It also depends on the mixing method used. You can clearly see the example with brownies. Fudge brownies have a high percent of fat and sugar, with a low amount of flour, and thus no structure. They fall and bake into a puddle of fudge. Usually a leavener is left out. If it's included, they will puff and if there's too much, the batter may spill over the side of the pan before baking is done, so it has a huge influence. In general, a cakelike brownie has more flour to fat and sugar than a fudge brownie. Flour give it more structure. They included leaveners for puff. Even cookies. I can control the pH or color and texture and flavor in a sugar cookie recipe or have it puff or spread more with baking powder and/or baking soda. I can make a chocolate chip cookie puff higher with a small amount of flour -even a tablespoon makes a big difference. I can darken a chocolate cake recipe by adding a teaspoon of baking soda in hot water and let it dissolve before adding it to the batter at the end of the recipe. So, my point is that every ingredient plays a major role when creating muffin or any recipe. The leaveners also play a major role. A recipe is a formula and each ingredient plays a role. In order to create a muffin with a perfect dome, flavor, color and all of the qualities one desires, all of the ingredients play a central role, not one playing a greater role than the other....That's why recipes are so difficult to create.....The leaveners are one of the trickiest and most important components to a recipe and have a lot to do with puff or spread, color, flavor and texture, besides rise. They are both chemicals and have a great influence over the "chemistry" of the batter. Woods, you can post your recipes, if desired and I can analyze them for you.

In technical terms, as I posted earlier, the orange peel contains the most volitle oils, where the flavor is. The oils are responsible for the pungency of the orange taste. This pungency comes from an aldehyde ester, which is found mostly in the peel oil. Kool Aid contains a concentrated amount - that's how Kool Aid gets its orange flavor. Boiling and pureeing a whole orange, as in the French recipe, serves several purposed: releases these oils, produces pectin, softens the outer layer of the orange, and releases juice from the orange. I believe it also helps reduce the bitter flavor in the white pith that is right under the orange peel. It is a similar technique used when making orange marmalade. Pectin serves to gel the marmalade recipe, as well. (Pectin has a role in baking and is used as a fat replacer, similar to the way apples. The pectin from the fruit forms a film around the tiny air bubbles in the batter.) But, in the end, whether you zest an orange, use Kool Aid (that has artifical orange flavor oil and color compounds added) or boil and orange and puree it, or making a sugar syrup that concentrates the juice and the pour it over the baked muffin, what you are really doing is flavoring the muffin from the volitle oils found in the orange peel and/or lesser so with the oils found in the juice. P.S. Sugar and fat in a muffin recipe lessens doming. The more the muffin resembles a cake recipe, the less it will dome. A soft, even crumb and moisture content has a lot to do with sugar content. Fat is a flavor carrier. The more fat in a muffin, the more amplified the flavor. Low-fat muffins do not have as much flavor, unless sugar is added. Concentrated orange oil yields really great flavor to a recipe. I like to use about 1/4 teaspoon per recipe. I use it in addition to vanilla extract (1 teaspoon) and sometimes 1/2 teaspoon natural orange extract, which may not be necessary. The orange oil is in place of orange peel, if desired. It is the concentrated oils from the peel. This way I need not boil an orange (unless I were making a recipe that required pectin and orange juice as well as orange flavor, such as the French cake recipe required), put Kool Aid in a recipe (I only do all-natural baking so wouldn't use it anyway), http://www.lorannoils.com/Products.asp?Cat...Name=Flavorings You may want to try it.

The recipe 's texture is not cornbread-like. It is cakelike. So, something must have happened when it was mixed and or altered from its original recipe. The photo of the texture posted here does not look right to me. The crumb is too loose and is not as fine as it should be, even made with all-purpose flour. A cakelike muffin is not a cake. It is a muffin with a cakelike texture, and uses all-purpose flour - that's the definition of a muffin or quick-bread recipe. Perhaps you need a cake recipe baked as cupcakes. That's when you use cake flour. Or, if you create your own hybrid, you can mix cake and all-purpose flour. Orange oil will give you the most consistent and intense orange flavor, by the way! Not all oranges are created equal in flavor.....

Hi, Crust and crumb, to me, have a lot to do with flavor! I always strive to obtain an excellent texture and mouthfeel, with my eye on flavor, because both usually go hand-in-hand. Besides, to me, flavor comes from proper crust and crumb -- from sugar caramelization, the flour itself, the proper balance of ingredients, just enough baking soda so the recipe isn't soapy, moisture content, grains or seeds used, etc. Color in a chocolate recipe, for example, can be altered through baking powder and baking soda, as well as texture and flavor, too. To me, when I develop recipes, extra flavor from extracts, citrus peel and extracts are always the last to add, because they are merely enhancements to the ingredients already in the recipe. Ingredients and their manipulation, create the texture and flavor. I believe that if you don't get the texture right, then you can't get the flavor to come across from the added extracts, citrus peel, etc. If you have a gummy muffin texture, then how is one supposed to get across a good flavor? Or, if the muffin is dry and crumbly, the flavor gets lost! To me, recipe development is an art, plus science. It's combining ingredients in such a way to get the right texture, mouthfeel and outcome. Flavorings should enhance what's already there.

RodneyCK, I would try different recipes, and there are some good suggestions here. A recipe is a formula and if you add this and that, sometimes you have to subtract something else. I have posted some suggestions for you on http://www.baking911.com/asksarahbb/index.php?showtopic=269 I hope all of your experiments work out for you and yield something that you enjoy!

Hi CanadianBakin', So sorry I didn't reply to you sooner! I get so busy on my website and forum! Anyway, as a test, and since you have had much success with my recipe, why don't you bake my Ultimate Butter Cake in a 9 x 13-inch pan? I have done it successfully in the past. Then, you can see if the problem lies with your mixing techniques or someone else's recipe -- or, perhaps you may need some general practice on how to mix butter cakes. Perhaps you can use my recipe as a "how to" lesson and gain some tips and practice from it that you can apply to any butter cake recipe! Make my Ultimate Butter Cake. NOTE: The cake can be baked in a 9 x 13 x 2-inch, greased cake pan. It takes 45 - 55 minutes to bake. Cupcakes take 20 - 30 minutes to bake.

Hi CandianBakin' (I love your name, by the way - very clever!) I don't know what the previous discussion was about with the other cake professional, but only thaw a cake in the refrigerator if it contains a perishable filling or frosting because the filling or frosting has to remain refrigerated. In general, if a cake layer or cake does not contain any perishable items, all cakes should be thawed at room temperature -- there aren't different rules for different types of cakes. Sometimes cake professionals thaw cake layers in professional refrigerators which are quite different than home refrigerators -- Home refrigerators will simply dry out a type of cake or make it too sticky, such as an Angel Food Cake. Again, I don't know the entire context of what an eG cake professional was discussing in a previous post, so I can't comment. I hope this clarifies things! By the way, what was the problem with the crumb in your other cake? I lost where you posted it?

You are more than welcome! ~

I've never frozen cakes, and am wondering how you handle the cake after it's been frozen. Simply take it out for a couple of hours to thaw at room temp?And will the texture be as good as it would be if it hadn't been frozen? Hi CanadianBakin" Thanks for trying my cake recipe! Just a quick tip! Don't thaw the cake in the refrigerator -- rather thaw this cake at room temperature in its wrappers. I noticed on another thread that you thawed another cake in the refrigerator and ended up with "no crumb". It's not the cake that causes it, but rather the "home refrigerator" environment that you are putting the cake into.....

Thanks guys for the wonderful complimets! Have you tried my Ultimate Chocolate Butter Cake Recipe, yet? I'd love to hear some feedback! http://www.baking911.com/recipes/cakes/but...te_ultimate.htm I no longer answer questions over here, so that's why I haven't been responding to yours -- sorry! Thanks, again for the nice comments !! ~

I don't think RLB's technique is faulty, it's just tricky to get the hang of. Italian meringue buttercream is a bit finicky, and it can take a few tries before you learn how to cope with the various ways it can go wrong! ← Ruth, RLB could have included more descriptive information with her recipe's instructions: http://baking911.com/recipes/cakes/btrcrm_mousseline.htm JeanneCake sugggested I add it as a tip, which I did. RLB's technique was not necessarily faulty; I was discussing my observation is that what happens in a lot of cookbooks from professionals is that their timing is a lot quicker than others, and because of it, their techniques of "turning off the mixer, adding the syrup and turning on the mixer" may not work for the mass market, which is slower at performing tasks because most of us don't do it everyday! So, i enhanced the RLB's recipe by adding more information. There are lots of recipes from professionals that homebakers have asked me why they don't work -- it's because professionals assume that the mass market performs the task with the same quickness of hand that the professional does, which is critical to the success of the recipe....and, the real world does not work with the same timing, 89.9% of the time....So, recipes have a higher chance of failing... I find Patrick S' information very helpful, too! Thanks.

See! Just what I was talking about before! It's not RLB's technique that's at fault.... ...RLB is used to speedy work, and the typical baker doesn't use the same quick timing...As I said before, I have seen lots of recipes fail in cookbooks written from professional chefs where their timing is much different from a home baker's....The technique is fine, but the recipe does not have as much success as it should in a mass market application because of the difference between the two "culture's timing" and understanding of how things work!.....I am NOT saying all of the time -- but, in my opinion and observations, a great deal of the time, based upon the nature of the emails and posts I get on my website. I've been talking with consumer's and answering questions for almost 20 years, now...There is a definite pattern and a split between the two "cultures"! I will put a Sarah's Says note with the recipe! Excellent suggestion! Thanks, JeanneCake!

I agree! I never turn the mixer on and off or use a pyrex cup and have never had a problem, either!

Just checked and RLB's instructions do say to mix in a steady stream with the mixer running, when using a hand-held mixer. Then she goes on to describe a stop-start technique when using a stand mixer. I've always ignored the latter instructions and poured with the mixer running. I also dispense with the pyrex glass step mentioned by RLB and have never had a problem. Here's another good, long thread on buttercream. ← The reason I poured the syrup in with the mixer off was because I got the recipe off baking911 and thats what it said. ← Yes, Rose Levy Beranbaum's Mousseline Recipe is posted on baking911.com. She wrote the instructions for mixing her recipe. If her recipe instruction's failed, then RLB's instructions are faulty. Here's what Rose Levy Beranbaum wrote as HER TECHNIQUE for making HER mouselline recipe: "If using a hand held mixer beat the syrup into the whites in a steady stream..... If using a stand mixer, pour a small amount of syrup over the whites with the mixer off. Immediately beat at high speed for 5 seconds. Stop the mixer and add a larger amount of syrup. Beat at high speed for 5 seconds...." excerpted from The Cake Bible, page 244. But, if Rose Levy Beranbaum's techniques are faulty, then I will remove the recipe from my database! Other meingue based buttercream recipes on my site do NOT use this stopping and starting technique....Thanks for the information.....I will retest the recipe AGAIN myself to see if there is a problem with it....I think her intent for turning off the stand mixer was because so many people splattered the syrup on the beaters; she thought that this would solve it. But, you have a split second in which to stop the mixer, pour the syrup and turn on the mixer, again. It may not work all of the time for some of us because most of us aren't fast enough. (But, maybe something else caused RLB's Mouselline Buttercream to curdle in this case???..... ) There are recipes that baker's have posted on my Ask Sarah Message Board asking me why they haven't worked. When I looked at the recipe, the professional chef simply didn't allow enough time for the recipe-user to take the pot off the stove, and the caramel burned. There are plenty of recipes by well-known chefs in cookbooks that shave the timing so close that home bakers have had a lot of problems with them......And, I can name many.....Not for me to act like an upity-person, but just to point out that RLB's tecbnique may be ok, but just not well-suited for the mass market! So, what works for RLB because her timing is so fast, may not work for many of us because we are a lot slower on how we react and do culinary tasks! Because my audience on baking911.com is home-bakers, I find you have to look at recipes and cookbooks in a different light versus the egullet audience, which seems to be professional bakers, which has a whole different attitude and way of looking at something. One technique may be perfect for the professional world and may not work in the home, mass-market world.....I know because I have seen it happen so many times.... (And, then there are those techniques that don't work at all....lol!!)

Thank you, Jane. Berta L. invented all of those wonderful recipe flavor variations using my Ultimate Butter Cake Recipe as the base! She deserves all the credit! If anyone is interested, they are on http://www.baking911.com/recipes/cakes/but...ow_ultimate.htm Enjoy!

Hi, Thanks for trying my recipe. All I can tell you that is you have to follow the recipe. If you want to substitute the TYPE of flour and sugar types, expect some different results. That's pretty much my findings with most cake recipes. The recipe calls for ALL PURPOSE FLOUR, not a mix of all-purpose and pastry flour, as you used....The all-purpose flour I used to develop the recipe with comes from the United States. The sugar used is table sugar. The flour sub that you did -- of adding in pastry flour -- threw off the whole recipe. If you aren't going to follow MY recipe and use 100% all-purpose flour, then the whole recipe will be off! In essence, you are creating your own recipe, and commenting on your own creation, not mine.....If you are not using the sugar called for in my recipe, then you are creating your own... I appreciate your trying to experiment, but you have to understand that when you do, you are creating your own recipe and not testing mine. I do have a member of baking911.com, Berta L. who does change flavorings in the cake recipe which much success, but note she isn't changing a major ingredient, such as the TYPE of flour! Read about it on the bottom of my recipe: http://baking911.com/recipes/cakes/butterc...ow_ultimate.htm I named the recipe variations after Berta L because they are her recipes for which she deserves the credit!

Hi, I was asked this question on my website, baking911.com, and came up with an answer. http://www.baking911.com/asksarahbb/viewtopic.php?t=1387 Perhaps you'd like to view it.....