MaxH

I wonder seriously about this assumpion, eje. Can you quantify -- do you know thujone content of the wormwood extract? (People freely consume, without harm, sage, a very concentrated thujone source; products like instant coffee concentrate caffeine, exhibiting same LD50 as thujone.) (Also true of instant coffee, as an aside.) In wormwood's case incidentally, bitterness comes chiefly not from thujone but Absinthin, a complex bitter principle coincident in the herb, which can be separated out. (Absinthin lists at a bitterness concentration of 70,000. That's strength above bitter taste threshold -- like the Scoville scale for hot peppers.) This shines light on the issue. Turn it around, look from a different angle of view: If you approach thujone via its presence in cooking sage, USFDA classifies it Generally Recognized As Safe. From this perspective, the earlier classification as dangerous when encountered via another herb (wormwood) is absurd.Given this context, hobbyist stigma of thujone as "poisonous" is certainly absurd and manufacturers' boasts of thujone-free absinthe are too: from the data it evidently doesn't matter and never did; also it's nothing new. (Why aren't you hearing this more often?) [Edited minor spelling error]

Hi eje, I thought I'd re-emphasize technical points long public (decades) but overlooked in many colorful discussions of absinthe even today. (These points contradict some current hobby mythos -- I have even found hobbyists who resist them despite incontrovertible sources.) 1. Thujone is actually about as toxic as caffeine (measured by rodent 50% lethality dose per unit body weight -- available in reference dept. of any public library). In fact, you get a higher fraction of a lethal caffeine dose in a cup of coffee than a bottle of hypothetical thujone-rich absinthe (one where most of the thujone in the starting herbs carries into the final liquor). Quantitative details Upthread. 2. A secondary point, but thujone fraction surviving distillation depends on technique. (Tendency to stay behind is inherent in a slightly higher boiling point of thujone vs. alcohol, IIRC.) Thujone-free absinthe was a boast in advertisements nearly 100 years ago (contradicting assertions that it's a recent discovery). 3. US regulatory status of thujone is not just inconsistent but radically contradictory. Food herbs officially classified today as healthy were found (after absinthe's ban) to have thujone levels like wormwood's. This has been authoritatively public since 1940s (again, more upthread). Why recent absinthe publicity misses these points might be itself a fruitful inquiry. (If anyone's seriously interested, I have a small library on the subject.) Grossman's mainstream US drinks book already complained 40+ years ago that contrary to myth, alcohol is the main toxic issue in absinthe (book is cited in recent pastis thread here).

Of course there's some range of preference here (as always) but I wonder if another separate concrete factor enters (as with some other "heresies" that reflect unexplained rules): Italian cookbooks I originally read (in English) spelled out the point: Pasta continues to cook for at least a couple of minutes after draining (because of residual heat, like other cooked foods unless you chill them fast) and point of the "to the tooth" test was the signal to pull the pasta, slightly undercooked, so that it would be just tender when served. (Not to serve it "al dente.")

It is possible to express a conclusion like that and then elaborate on the conclusion. My personal preference (as if you couldn't tell) is to research the objective data -- for instance about white Burgundies and wood -- then argue from the data. Maybe the conclusion above has some basis (I can't tell from the posting). It does contradict my own experience, admittedly more with food-wine enthusiasts than the larger wine market. I can testify that most people I've witnessed preferring less oaky wines did so because they liked them better, even blind. (In fact, many of these people felt so 25 years ago, when the flood of stylistically narrow, me-too California Chardonnays, which many of us know all too well, lapped over the Americas -- wine writers were complaining of it even then). I can testify too that most of you would not characterize the people I know as "snobs," if you knew them too.

Didn't know about the Gouais cross; per Sneakeater, old name "Pinot Chardonnay" was common in California, it's in books and I still have a bottle label with that phrase circa 1970. (There are other obsolete "Pinot" names too.) This business of US market discovering Riesling is interesting. It has gotten some press. But wine writers have been crowing about Riesling's merits at least since Sainstbury, nearly 100 years ago in his classic wine-consumer guide (Notes on a Cellar-Book). The world wars produced many laments; among the very minor ones were that the beautiful unique German and Alsatian Rieslings were unavailable. JohnL's steel may be alloyed with irony. Some fine C.-de-Beaunes are matured for oak flavors, but it is atypical of Burgundy. In Chablis "the most authentic style is the 'unoaked' wine" (Stevenson's encyclopedia) while in the Mâconnais, making three fourths of the white wine in Burgundy, steel rules. If anything it's they who created the wave of interest in unoaked!

This is very interesting and provocative information, Mary. (I gather these were blind tastings, so it wasn't an issue of any preconception.) I take part in, and organize, comparative blind wine tastings (around one a week, often looking for fine distinctions among related wines). In these tastings the point is to extract impressions. Then (as an afterthought, almost) we rank wines by our nominal preferences. That lends structure to the resulting discussion, which is the main point of the "ranking." (People's deeper conclusions about the wines often are more practical: like it a lot, like it at the price, not my style, etc.) But the "rankings" flow from the impressions, as almost a separate step.

Craig, I think the advice in this thread, and Fat Guy's succinct diagnosis (someone was just being dumb) are excellent. If you encounter a dealer who does not know about TCA spoilage of wines ("cork fault" -- known in the trade for centuries apparently, even before the chemistry was understood), refer them to any of these: Any modern wine encyclopedia Court of Master Sommeliers Institute of Masters of Wine The Wine Institute (US) Most anyone with career in the wine business

I'm completely with JohnL on this. Q: "Have you ever had the opportunity to talk to someone like this?" I don't know if you limit it geographically, Mary, but here are a few, in business more than 10 years. (Some I know reasonably well, and I apologize publicly to them if this is embarassing which I think it won't be.) All are publicized but I don't think they seek it. (N.B.: in Burgundy there are many more women winemakers.) Josh Chandler, Lazy Creek (Anderson Valley) Ed Kurtzman, at large (earlier Testarossa) Jeff Patterson, Mount Eden Hermann J. Wiemer, pioneer of V. vinifera in Finger Lakes (1990: "I was just profiled in the Wine Spectator. I was not in very good humor ...") George Troquato, Cinnabar and elsewhere [you asked for it George, when you mistook me for Robert Parker a dozen yrs ago] Paul Draper, Ridge [by anonymous poll on Parker Web site, most respected US winemaker]

Posted a few years ago to a local forum in New Orleans:

Wow! I had no idea. (Greetings MSE!) Fernand Point, interviewed by Wechsberg (in an oft-cited little green book), described another side of it, the craftsmanship of Béarnaise -- just a few ingredients, yet it could take years to learn how to do it well, if you ever did.Having chased a grant or two myself before, I wonder if it might be hard to justify getting funding for further projects of that kind. Also, years ago (before the subject became fashionable) there were a few refereed papers about absinthe pharmacology -- an informal but diligent 1997 review of them is Here -- but if I remember, some of them turned out to reflect poor science. (Which rarely happens in "serious" research, needless to say. :-) :-)

dividend, further to your own point: Though you didn't mention the factor, can you also imagine responding in that way if the restaurant's slightly dismissive reaction flowed from your being falsely represented to the restaurant in order to get the reservation?

Good: Then we're agreed, concisely. (My postings quoted above had little to do with Old/New world political games, no one would accuse me of that -- let alone Amerine or Thompson! -- who has gotten what we wrote. My comments were, rather, to the disparate readings-in of possible meanings and motivations of a previous poster's brief comment. As you can see, this is a steady issue.) Cheers -- M

Ultimately human nature, I'd say. The 2005 "French Laundry, Is it too late to vent?" rant especially (posted, note, two years after the episode), and others of its genre I've seen for years, demonstrate (if you can see it) a larger picture. People undertake elaborate mental gymnastics (even dozens of postings in the 2005 thread) to rationalize an internal picture casting themselves the injured victim -- and others buy into it. (Else, why would they post?) Last decade I saw or heard close accounts of half a dozen "road rage" cases that became nearly violent. In each (most observers would say), the enraged person also initiated the problem. A savvy psychologist in a valuable workplace training years ago described "externalizing:" people look everywhere for the cause of a problem, except in the mirror. With restaurants, naive or convenient customer notions help promote that (another example: not knowing how far servers depend on tips -- making a big point of not leaving a penny too much, etc., because "the restaurant" is seemingly a faceless institution out to take us all). An electronic forum may or may not shine light on human nature but surely it can highlight the human nature of restaurants and elements of two-way respect and understanding (important in other kinds of business too, by the way). For those readers who are interested.

Yes, I earlier highlighted and again I refer everyone to the June 2005 French Laundry thread for a really pure example, where still, someone went online to complain (and others to commiserate) despite initiating the whole sequence, without even a sudden personal problem "A" as in this thread. The morality of convenience is what got me posting here. Coincidence: After posting yesterday, I was in the same used bookstore where the legendary Epicurean cookbook surfaced for ten dollars, and ran into current chef of 15-year restaurant I mentioned yesterday. I asked him about customer understanding of the expensive commitments a small high-end kitchen makes when booking for costly meals. He said many customers don't seem to know about this (and implied that if they did, they might more clearly understand a reciprocal commitment). Maybe this site, with many restaurant-savvy consumers reading it, can help get the word out.

Clarification to my previous posting: I didn't mean to suggest that wild mushrooms are hard to find in US. (I grew up with them in the US and my father even farmed them in rural northern California, see 2005 Truffle tutorial. Have also bought them in NY and other states.) Point on wild mushrooms is they have long been much more and commonly integrated into consumer habits in central Europe. Like a necessity, rather than a novelty. You will see, when you spot one of those canned displays in an ordinary neighborhood market.

Again no: My remarks above answered Porthos's, after answering rcianci's.Do many others really not get what's happening? From long enough focus, three problems are distinct. A, Customer family fatigued, changes mind about dinner. (Believe me, I've been there.) B, Customer backs out of high-end restaurant reservation. C, Restaurant complains to customer. Ethical issue is the unexamined assumption that customer's problem A should reasonably become restaurant's problem B. You can likewise rationalize the customer in French Laundry complaint here (June 1, 2005: couldn't get reservations, so used ruse representing him as someone he wasn't). And as you can see, people do rationalize it.

In the Germanic countries cold cuts are indeed good (and many kinds of bread, different whole grains etc; newly arrived co-worker from NL some years ago: "Where can you find bread in the US? I have looked in supermarkets and the range is limited"). Standard breakfast and lunch fare there. But what the central countries have especially is wild mushrooms. In various forms such as canned, year-round. I've seen displays in even the small neighborhood storefront supermarkets (a typical kind of retailer there) comparable to the Campbell's Soup displays in US markets. Arm yourself with food-specific vocabularies even if you're fluent. (For German as spoken in Germany the Marling Menu-Master is a tiny pocket reference, ISBN 0912818018.) Pfifferlinge (chanterelles) and Steinpilzen (boletes, cepes, porcini) are choice common wild mushroom types commonly encountered (though not explained very specifically in the Marling). -- "... the Belgians, who are reputed to make the best french fries in the world, swear by horse fat." -- Russ Parsons, 2001 (ISBN 039596783X)

But inactive, acording to an earlier post; therefore why repeat the point. No, we can only objectively assume we don't know.The ethic evident in some restaurant-experience threads is remarkable. As a restaurant consumer I appreciate the mutual commitment enabling diners to eat at fine restaurants. 15 years ago I told one of them I hadn't stood up a restaurant in 20 years and if I did so I'd consider it important to compensate the restaurant per an average check for our table and if they wanted, I would put that in writing. (They didn't. I also have been a regular ever since.) Yet there are threads like one on French Laundry (2005) where customer used false premises to get a sought-after reservation and then, when the fraud surfaced during dinner, service became a bit chilly and that is what the customer protested in the thread and that is what many respondents commiserated about! Not the fraud that created the situation. Porthos, "the central issue" is the restaurant was stiffed. Yes there's a problem with how that was handled on the phone, no question. But that came only after the original slight. (One that seems not to bother a lot of people.)

Another good source for this topic (and this forum): Harold Grossman's eloquent Guide to Wines, Spirits, and Beers (4th ed., 1964), written for the trade as well as consumers, says this at the end of its Absinthe article: "Anis-Licorice flavored liqueurs are the most popular drinks of the countries bordering the Mediterranean. The product is known in each country by its local name..." [Ojen in Spain, Pastis in France -- Ricard cited as best known; I forgot to list it above, it's also 45%, Anesone in Italy, Ouzo and Mastikha in Greece, Raki often in Turkey.] These spirits are "rarely ever drunk neat," instead diluted about 1:5 with water, consumed both as aperitif and refresher. (Grossman, whose career in the beverage industry went back to the 1920s or earlier -- he worked in other countries also -- has wry comments in the absinthe article about the specious "aura of mystery" enveloping prohibited products, when compared with the reality. His remarks on durable misconceptions about absinthe are accurate and current even now, and apparently would be news to some of today's vocal absinthe hobbyists as well as to the general public.)

Old Foodie makes a valuable point: The important lists of this kind will not all be (in fact, most will not be) from recent Web sites or currently fashionable chefs. Wendell Berry has a concise modern (1992) manifesto (beginning "Participate in food production to the extent that you can") and Alice Waters a fairly concise summary of principles, both in the 1992 Antaeus book listed in another thread (the book is easily available, used, for a couple of dollars). Brillat-Savarin's famous Physiology of Taste has explicit lists of principles and obbservations including what you can tell about diners by their table behavior (e.g., people who live alone are more likely to reach directly for the dish of food). Doing this topic some sort of justice surely demands looking at a book or two ...

I posted this elsewhere early 2004 to discussion on people learning rigid rules in formal trainings, then later exploring and (with luck) really learning their occupations: A veteran restaurant manager with diverse experience described new grads from culinary schools with rigid ideas of how to do things (most trained cooks I've talked to mentioned this school rigidity and their own process of unlearning it) and also, the new grads' notion that their credentials free them from mundane chores like making sauces -- Knorr-Swiss mixes [!] were even proposed as a substitute by one such new grad. Another [veteran] in the same line was Tell Erhardt, German-born Philadelphia chef with spots on US nightly TV news a generation ago and a follow-around magazine interview, collected in Quinn's US restaurant book But Never Eat Out on a Saturday Night (ISBN 0385182201). [The interview is classic and necessary reading for anyone curious about restaurants -- MH.] Erhardt apprenticed young in Europe, and had bitter memories of the chef he worked under as a teenager, who whacked him on the head, he said, for mistakes. (It reads like Charles Dickens.) A positive side effect was that it quickly disabused Erhardt of some childhood food dislikes. "I put in onions [in the stockpot] one time and the chef says, 'First taste.' 'I can't,' I say. 'I don't like onions.' He beats me, he kicks me. I taste the onion and ever since I eat onions all the time. . . . That bastard, I still remember him. . . . But [Erhardt reflects philosophically,] "he teaches me to eat onions." (Quinn P. 38).

No kidding. No kidding. (Good comments, dave s.) The problem with so many cooking "rules" is that they're presented as mindless dogma. Do this because I said so. (Not "do this for the following good reason.") Crushing garlic (with or without a press) leaves it one way, slicing it leaves it another. Whether you wash mushrooms or not affects how much water they retain because they are dense little sponges (so in a soup, it matters not). When I was taught some French pastries 25+ years ago the chef (who happened also to be a scientist) pointed out that salting masks rancidity and so traditionally only the freshest butter could be sold unsalted, therefore "salted butter" wasn't the same as unsalted butter plus salt. (Others have said this is less of an issue today.) Imposing rigid rules is also so much easier than trying things and seeing what actually works ...

I remembered the strongest case of "What outsiders know that locals don't" that I know of in the US. Thread here on "Bad Name for a Donut" triggered it. The common French food word beignet (fritter), found in any cookbook from France (sometimes with dozens of recipes), evolved to an altered meaning in Louisiana, where it routinely is solid, nothing inside. No meat, fruit, jam, shellfish. (This is very non-French: nearest traditional French recipes to a New Orleans "beignet" aren't even much like the version made there. Julia Child even pointed that out.) It routinely causes a surprise to French-speaking foreign visitors to Louisiana. What that region labels a "beignet" is what older US recipes call a donut or dough-nut (ironically described by a famous early US cookbook as a "yankee" specialty) because the annulus or ring shape wasn't common until later. The peculiar New Orleans regional meaning of beignet (the pastries themselves are common there) is even spreading in the US, becoming fashionable, among people unaware what it is in the larger French-speaking world. Like those words mentioned above with unconsciously different meanings in US vs. UK English. (Ihave a stack of early original sources on this and can post more details not easily available. Other old names too for the nut-shaped original "dough-nut" survived beyond the annular shape but are not much used now.) How 'bout that for foodword trivia?

You joke, but there was a related thread many years ago on an early Internet food forum. Maybe I can dig it up, but I remember what I posted: At the time (late 1980s?) there was a fashion for naming food-related institutions "Cinnabar." The color of the mineral, or just the word, was fashionable. But Cinnabar is an ore of Mercury (important in mining), poisonous and associated with nervous system damage, convulsions, etc. Appetizing associations for a restaurant or café ... I think that's an example of pure "concept."

I believe that's about liguistics, not local knowledge: Different definitions of "Porterhouse" in US and UK as I strongly remember. Larger in US (I don't mean thickness.) Maybe someone here can point to a good reference. There'a niche genre of words (more clear-cut even than that example) where the same word is in both cultures (or even sometimes, in North American English vs. most other English) but understood differently. And used in similar sentences so people don't spot a difference. When a British writer caused a villain character circa 1960 to talk about "discussing the price of corn," US readers may have missed that UK uses the word for grain in general while the author might even have missed that what much of the planet calls "maize" in English is called "corn" in US. Later the same character more explicitly points out different traditional meanings of "billion" (10 to the 9th power in US, 10 to the 12th power in UK, whence pointed use of unambiguous "thousand million"). Though the "billion" issue has been fading now for a generation or two, I hear.