Octaveman

Did they get back with you?

Oooh, you're going to like it. Be sure to report back when you get it.

The description of the DP that Korin uses is misleading. They say it's a carbon steel plate encased in stainless. Then further down they say it's high quality swedish carbon WITH 13% chromium added. That's now a stainless steel. The DP's core is a high carbon stainless and is Sandvik 19C27 I believe. The construction allows for a high hardness core laminated with a softer stainless for ease of sharpening.

Sujihiki is a Japanese name for a slicer. Pretty much the same thing. Depending on preference though there are slicers with rounded tips and pointy tips. The ones with rounded tips are often called carving knives and the ones with pointy tips are called slicers. Unless I go looking around the only slicers that I can recall that have a rounded tip are Shun and Ryusen Blazen below at EE.com. I personally like the pointy tip to finish off the slice if needed. Sujihiki's at EE.com I wouldn't spend extra for the dimples unless you want them. If that's the case I'd only recommend Glestain. Here are some recommendations for some awesome Sujihiki's that are thin thin thin (less drag). Kikuichi Elite carbon steel sujihiki $90 for 240mm Probably one of the best slicers out there for the money. Kikuichi Stainless Steel Excellent. Tojiro DP at Korin is a good value in stainless which you've probably already seen. Hattori FH is a great high-end knife too if it fits your budget. Three different sizes. Hiromoto AS is also a fantastic slicer with Super Blue carbon steel core surround with stainless. Fujiwara FKH is all carbon and a great value too. I could most definitely go on but chances are most Sujihiki's are pretty good. The one's above are just brands that I've used including a few sujihiki's. Did you have a particular brand you wanted info on?

Cool. That's what I'll do. Thanks.

Hmmm, that's what I thought. Unfortunately, it's sort of hard to see for sure the construction with an online purchase. So the inserts are not all made the same then? How do you keep from burning your hands with steam coming out between the two sections as you stir? I can certainly get a SS bowl too...that would be easy.

Are they pretty much all created equal? Any brands better than the other? I'm looking to buy my first one so can I spend $18 or do I have to spend $40-$50? thanks,

So tonight I checked not one but two 240mm gyuto's and both were 50/50. They were very thin too as far as Japanese production knives go.

I forgot that I still had my friends Honesuki and petty here to sharpen. I took the liberty of at least checking these for geometry. The petty was so damn thin it was very hard to see the heel but given my best estimate it appeared to be 50/50 give or take a little. But again, that thing was THIN so very hard to tell for sure. The Honesuki is without question damn near 95/5. The pics below show what I mean. I also added a few shots of the bevels I created on this knife. I changed the angles I sharpened to be a little more obtuse than originally made. Mainly because I didn't want to risk scratching the hell out of the front side to keep it the same. I changed it to an roughly a 70/30 bevel at the edge. I go by feel so it's more or less that ratio. The backside of the knife (left side as you hold it aka inside) The front side (right side or outside) Another picture of the geometry. You can clearly see that the assymetrical aspect of the blade comes from the spine down, not just at the edge. In order for Korin to change this to a left handed knife, Master Sugai would essentially grind about 5mm of the bevel in the opposite direction that I did which kept with the original assymetric design shown below in the last two shots. Here is the front side bevel which is about 2.5mm-3mm wide. The back side at about 1mm wide

If you can play with the angles then that would be cool. Certainly a steeper angle on a Japanese knife would be advisable. The assymetrical aspect of Japanese knives is not just at the edge or even 10mm from it. The entire blade is ground that way from spine to edge. What Korin speaks of when it says it can alter a knife to be 50/50 ground or even change it to left handed use they are referring to the last 5-10mm of the blade. It would be impossible to completely adjust the grind of the entire blade for left handed use without destroying the blade. I could be wrong with this because I said just about every Japanese knife was assymetrical so I left room for the odd ball of the bunch. If they make it symmetrical then it's certainly not standard. I'll have more info on two DP's tomorrow night. I'll take pics too.

It's wrong. Unfortunately, it's quite frequent that misinformation is posted on websites. Specially when it comes to HRC values. I checked out what you saw on Korin's sight. I'm skeptical about how it's presented. If I was to read this I would think that are saying it's 50/50 to further emphasize the double beveled aspect rather than actual grind. Not that I'm saying that online retailers intentially mislead the public but there is a lot of hesitance in the minds of the general public with regard to Japanese knives that they try to ease those minds best they can. If they advertised it was a 70/30 grind most people would say "what the hell is that?" and buy something else. In reality though, a 70/30 grind on a knife where the spine is 2mm going down to .7mm right behind the edge is so imperceptable that I can almost gaurantee nobody would notice. To prove my point, a 50/50 grind of .7mm would be .35mm per side where as a 70/30 grind would be .49mm/.21mm respectively. I seriously doubt anyone when cutting away at veggies will be able to detect a .14mm difference in either direction. I'll ask my friend to bring his knife to rehearsal tomorrow night and I'll confirm the grind for you. There's a simple test to estimate the grind too. Take a pencil and put it up against one side of the blade near the bolster (push with one finger on the pencil at the spine). Make special note of the gap between the blade and pencil at the edge or along the side of the blade. Do the same on the other side. The gap would be the same width for a 50/50 ground knife or wider/smaller for an assymetrical blade. Not scientific but it's a good down and dirty visual check.

Um, thanks for the offer but I'll wait to see what happens to your knives first. Yeah, I'm in California where I think it's going to be a blistery 65 today. It should get back to normal in a few days. Hope they provide some valuable info. Thanks for checking on it.

I'd be really curious to know grit levels of the two stones and the stropping wheel. If you can take a macro shot of the edge that would help. Or you can look through a jewelers loop and tell us what you see...deep grinding or fine grinding. At 1k the bevels look pretty smooth. I have this feeling though that the course is near 200 and the fine is near 700. Maybe send them an email to see if they come back with something of value?

I could be wrong but my guess is that the 18* refers course grinder as that would create the wider bevel then the 22* would be used to create the actual cutting edge. This would be similar to a micro bevel being created. If I do a micro bevel on the stones I raise the angle a bit. This would make the edge stronger. As far as desired angles, if the degrees given were combined then I would say, right on. But my guess is that they are degrees per side which gives a combined angle of 36-44 degrees. That's HUGE. Most Japanese knives will have at most a combined 25-30 degrees or 12-15 per side. When I sharpen on stones I will go lower than that depending on the knife and it's purpose. I just sharpened a friends DP and it had a pretty acute angle on it from the factory so 10-12* per side is a reasonable estimate. Also keep in mind that pretty much all western Japanese knives are 70/30 or 80/20 ground. Making your edge a 50/50 will not pose much of a problem because those assymetrical angles are ground from spine to edge, not just at the edge.

Yes, the Tojiro is much harder. I'm not 100% sure but I think your knife is likely about 55-56 HRC whereas the Tojiro is around 61. The Togiharu knives are about 58-59 so their closer. The Togiharu Molybdenum is reasonably priced like the Tojiro but much softer. I personally feel the Tojiro has a better blade but Togiharu has better F&F. I looked at the description of the sharpener you have and what you've told us in your posts. I think you might be okay if you don't hit the course grinder in order to minimize chips. But hardness is only one part of the picture. Japanese knives are much thinner too so there's less metal at the edge to handle the harsh grinding. Plus, it's my guess your sharpener's angles are very obtuse given the small bevel it created as seeni in your pics. With the acute angles of pretty much every Japanese blade, the sharpener would just eat up the edge. That is, at least until the original edge is gone. Then you've just made a German knife out of a Japanese knife albiet with better material. I've long heard that electric sharpeners are no good for Japanese knives despite the fact that Shun makes one. But if you're willing to give it a shot, I'm willing to watch

I for one will be interested in your results as the Tojiro is much harder than your Sabatier so hopefully it won't end up a finely serrated knife from all the chips. You may want to consider a Togiharu as they are marginally softer and may hold up better with your sharpener than Tojiro. Do you know what grit level the grinders are on your sharpener?On a side note, the Messermeister Meridian Elite is bolsterless and from what I hear quite good as far a Euro knives go.

I think that's a great start

We can lead the masses to water but we can't make them drink. It takes a leap of faith to step out of the box (or the store stocking Shun) and to venture into the sometimes very confusing and nerve wracking world of Japanese knives. For many, a Shun is a HUGE difference to the knives they've been using and are so astounded at how well it cuts or holds an edge that there is no way anyone can think there is a multitude of Japanese knives that are significantly better available. A Shun is not by any stretch of the imagination a viable representative of what a Japanese knife is. The only thing that can be compared is the steel used. Forget about geometry, profile, efficiency, blah blah blah... it still comes down to convenience to the buyer and the ability to "hold" it first. While not very tactfully stated in posts above, it is true. It's also true that people find different handle styles more comfortable. It's also true that most of the people don't use the knife long enough at a time to cause carpal tunnel syndrome, tendonitis, or whatever. Which leads to it's also true that people don't need to care about devine technique. It's also true that people just want something to cut the damn onion with regardless if it takes them 10 seconds or 30 seconds. So how someone grips a knife is irrelevant to the person using it. Anyone can USE a knife well enough if it's a comfortable fit. As it's been said...90% skill and 10% equipment. I don't like Shun for a few reasons but I do recognize that it's certainly a step up from Euro knives. The Classic line is affordable and a good knife value. All the other lines are not given the Japanese knives that are easily attainable online. The KO is definately not a knife I would ever own or recommend. Sure it might be more comfortable if you hold your knife by the handle but if you pinch grip it, then you've just negated the whole purpose of the ergo handle and spent a lot of money for it too. I've held the knife. Yes, the handle is comfortable but I don't hold a knife like a tennis racquet. It became awkward for me with a pinch grip. This is a prime example of what came first, the chicken or the egg. Did Shun recognize that millions of people around the world hold their knife wrong so they make a new design to cash in on their ineptitude or are they doing these people a service by making a design to help them. I vote the former. It's nothing personal, just business. Regardless of what I think of a knife I have no problem people using whatever they'd like simply because it doesn't matter what I think. And unless people turn into knife nuts and buy and sell various knives over the course of a few years they will never no the difference and understand what we're talking about. A few here on eG have contacted me and as a result have taken that leap of faith with 100% satisfaction. None of them ultimately bought a Shun.

The ingredients vary depending on what I have available in the fridge very much like my stir fry dishes but usually consists of grilling on a panini grill thin asparagus, bell pepper, red onion/shallots. Then butter the bread adding a little garlic salt and parmigiano then toast it all together with whatever cheese I have to hold it all together. I also usually add basil if I have it or cilantro. If I have leftover meat of some type I'll add that too. So nothing specific but oh so yummy.

So, um, he doesn't need 5 cleavers. A real man would only need one to do just about everything anyway, not 5. The OP was asking about brands of Santoku's. While I'm definitely not a Santoku kind of guy, I'm not about to recommend a gyuto instead and then not answer the poor guys question. Generally, a knife within the same brand/line will have the same characteristics. I have used a Hattori gyuto and a UX10. Both knives are great but I think the UX10 would hold up better in a pro kitchen. BUT, don't spend extra for the dimples...waste of money. The only knife they really work on is with Glestain. The Hattori is very thin and can be somewhat fragile as a result. Not everyone experiences this fragility but I've heard about many who have including myself. It can be remedied though by changing the bevel angles to be more obtuse. Nice knife. I have heard the Gekko is pretty good as well as the Togiharu. I'm not a fan of shun and really never have been. I do recognize that it's a good knife but not for me. You can get way better for the money. The biggest problem for me with a Santoku is the length or lack of it that is available on the market. 165mm is just too freakin short for an every day knife IMHO. At least the Gekko has one at 190mm. Much closer to a desirable length than pretty much all others. I think Hiromoto makes a 190mm too. Hope this helps a little. Good luck with your search.

1. Nakiri's are double beveled in that they are most likely a ratio 70/30 or 80/20 rather that the typical 50/50 bevel on western knives. They obivously favor the right handed but the thickness behind the edge is so small that any difference to a 50/50 grind is near undetectable. It's rare that a knife will be 95/5 which would imply a small back bevel. Being near flat on the backside is no where near the same thing as a hollow ground knife. 2. The Shun Pro is an Usuba. It is a traditional single beveled knife that is hollow ground on the back side (or should be). The Shun Classic Nakiri is double beveled like all the others above. These knives have a specific purpose that is more geared to a Japanese kitchen. A Nakiri is a veggies knife that can be used quite easily in a western kitchen...actually even in a Japanese kitchen for that matter. They're basically a chef's knife of a different design. With bevels that are 70/30 or 80/20, they still very much perform like a 50/50 blade. I think the only time I've seen issues is when I was making thin slices of potato for a gratin. The knife wanted to rotate a bit. I just adjusted the way I cut and things were fine. Large and dense foods could cause the knife to turn. It just takes a little practice to adjut. It's still nowhere near the effect you'd get with an Usuba. If one finds that it's too much of a problem, change the bevels when you sharpen. No big deal.

I'm assuming the 3mm is spin measurement at the bolster? If so, spine measurements are a small part of the picture. I have a Watanabe gyuto that is 4.5mm at the spine/ferrule but it's damn near the best cutter I own. The taper to the edge (geometry) is what is important. Tanaka is a hand made knife so spine measurement is not a catch-all indicator of a knife's performance. The Tanaka is not too much heavier than the Yoshi or Togiharu or even the Gekko which is 6.7 ounces according to JCK. I'm with you on the weight thing. I like a little weight to my knives too. Most production knives are fairly consistant from brand to brand so they are pretty predictable but there is the odd one here and there that's slightly different than the others. For the most part, a 2mm spine is pretty standard. rmillam, could you post some pics? A pic of the heal of the blade as you look down from underneath the handle? A spine shot showing taper to the tip would be good too. I've never known anyone who has one of these and would be nice to see so I know what I'm talking about when I recommend a knife.

Okay, okay, all kidding aside...your requirements are a tad unrealistic. I'm not aware of any knife used 6 days/week that won't need to be sharpened for 6 months. There are so many factors that come into play how often you'll actually need to sharpen that I can't realistically recommend a knife. Now if you said sharpen every other month with touch-ups every other week then that would be requirements I could work with. Then there's also the issue of whether you want carbon or stainless. But, if you can afford a Tanaka and obviously want the best then I'd like to throw out another suggestion....Murray Carter. His Nakiri's are notoriously known to be thin high performance knives. You have two lines you could go with...Stainless Fukugozai in Blue Super or his High Grade line which is same material but higher level of finish and handle options. HERE is an example of a SFGZ Nakiri currently on sale. If you don't want this one, call him to place a custom order. Blue Super is more expensive than white but does give a slight advantage in edge retention. Sooooo, I would say it's between the Tanaka and the Carter. Either one you'd have to wait for since the Tanaka is back ordered. One thing I would do if I was interested in the Tanaka is to send Koki at JCK.com an email and ask if he could get you a Tanaka Nakiri since they also are dealers of his knives. Did that help your decision? Or do you want a knife right now?

That's the beauty of do it yourself sharpening...you can make the bevel angles anything you want. If your goal is to keep the original angles then H20's suggestion for using the sharpie is best. Or you could lightly use a course stone, take one swipe and see where it landed. Adjust angle if necessary and do it again until you've hit the angle you desire then get to work on the rest of the knife. Yeah, big corporations are way too busy to actually answer the questions of us peasants. One of the reasons I try to avoid them if at all possible. My personal way of sticking it the man. My criteria? Hmmm, in this case it's based purely on reputation of the brands. I know how well each are made, edge retention, build quality, etc. The only thing I don't know is actual performance which is essentially determined by blade geometry from spine to edge. But chances are all of them will perform equally. The Kansui has a tough carbon steel core clad with stainless. The Yoshikane is made from tool steel so very strong and durable. The Kumagoro is basically the carbon steel equivalent to the Yoshi. The Togiharu will have nice fit and finish but it is much softer than the others so edge retentioin wouldn't be as good. Personally I would take the Tojiro over this one though. The Tanaka is, well, just beautiful.