Nathan

the Times review -- sure, some. most -- not. it's a downtown crowd. some of them read the Times reviews...just not most...but most of them would already have heard of the restaurant...where the Times would really make a difference is if they haven't been yet and they react with "crap...we really need to check this out"... the Beard award....nah...not at all. very very very few people in the Ssam demographic are familiar with the Beard awards.

alas, the lunch is nowhere near as good as it used to be (I imagine there's been some cost-cutting as it has become popular). the mozzarella was terrific...as was the gravlax and the tartare...but then it went downhill...ah well. still well worth the price.

as I said up this (now very long) thread, lunch at Ssam Bar is definitely better than Chipotle or most competitors at its price point. but are you getting a two star restaurant experience at lunch? well, no. you're getting Chang's interpretation of fast food. on the other hand...show me the two star restaurant that charges $7 for lunch.

well, his parents do seem to get him in trouble everywhere he goes (see Le Cirque, where they acted like rubes and got a bad table (and good service after that)). I live close to Waverly Inn so I've been a number of times. there's absolutely no question that if you don't fit the "look" they're quite likely to turn you away...I've seen them do it. on the other hand, (it's pretty good comfort food but not more than that)....since the whole point of the place is the celeb aspect...it's not surprising that they keep "special occasion" hoi polloi out. the only reason why someone not from the neighborhood would go there (the food's equivalent to the Harrison or Red Cat) is to celeb gawk. they're deliberately discouraging that. edit: I'm not condoning it...just pointing out the logic from their perspective.

I thought I saw the "nouveau" ssam being made at dinner, but regardless... what you said is spot on. ← what I meant is that the more authentic ssam isn't offered at lunch.

doesn't the first sentence negate the last couple? since price is officially taken into account doesn't it conceivably follow that a restaurant which would be one-star if it was expensive become a two star if it's cheap? what else would the Times mean when it says "price is taken into consideration"....nowhere does it say that restaurants can only be downgraded because of price....there's nothing that says they can't be upgraded. one could certainly argue that price shouldn't be taken into account, but the fact remains that the Times explicitly says it is.

the thing is: Ssam Bar opened as a Korean Chipotle. Chang's avowed claim was to start a fast food chain. the ambitious dining part came later...after the fast food bit tanked (especially at dinner). the weird thing about this restaurant (and what might be throwing people off) is that Chang has taken the reverse course....he's started out very low-end and steadily moved up. if anything, he set his ambitions way too low at first. dinner started because of economic necessity, the ssam weren't paying the bills. if they're still selling at lunch, they'll continue, if not, probably he'll just close for lunch. (like I said up the thread, that dinner menu won't work for lunch in the EV.) further, the lunch ssam originated as a very popular lunch dish at Momofuku Noodle (they're only offered at lunch there)...I happen not to like them...but obviously a lot of people do. Chang only offers real ssam (lettuce wraps) at dinner.

lots of people like the lunch ssam (I'm not one of them)..but they were quite popular at Momofuku Noodle. but what matters here is that it's not a "signature dish" and to taste what's wonderful about Chang's cooking you have to go there for dinner.

I'll make an argument that it's plausible that the lunch menu as it stands is the only thing he could offer...other than not doing lunch at all. (I made this argument above.) there are no business lunches in the EV. people aren't spending more than $8-15 a person. not on First and Second Ave. not gonna happen. Momofuku Noodles sells a lot of ssam and a lot of ramen at lunch. that ssam is popular so Chang decided maybe he could start a ssam chain. miscalculation -- it's not THAT popular. I suppose you could argue that he could expand the lunch menu for the occasional diner who might actually be willing to spend cash at lunch. (I think on the weekends this would be viable). but I'm not sure that they would make any money off of it. the thing is: the EV isn't the Financial District or midtown...it's not filled with office workers or business lunches. it's not the WV, SoHo or NoLIta...filled with wealthy jobless European kids or design offices or people working from home. the EV is filled with restaurants offering $8 lunches. edit: which is exactly why the number of people who will be miffed like Sheraton is de minimis. I'm guessing that Sheraton doesn't have a 9-8 job (or 8-9 like some of us). so she can trek anywhere she wants to check out a lunch. that's not so for most people. the vast majority of people who are attracted to the place because of the buzz are going to go there for dinner.

the thing is, it's not like the place is busy at lunch....at all. and frankly, I don't think it'd be much busier if he served the dinner menu. (Momofuku Noodle does lunch business because a. people can order a big bowl of ramen for $12; b. people order the ssam for lunch at Momofuku Noodle) no one's eating lunch for $50-80 a head in the EV. not gonna happen. so what you're really asking him to do is not be open for lunch at all just so Mimi Sheraton doesn't get confused. I think I know what Chang's response would be to that......

Really? I see people ordering the tortilla Ssams all of the time at dinner. Usually it's in conjunction with the steamed buns and 1-2 other dishes, but they're quite popular, even at dinner. I guess I should lean over and ask if they'd been to Ssam Bar before, and if not, if they assumed the Ssam was the star dish to get? ← I see a few people ordering them...but along with other dishes.

Well, why shoudn't the patrons know? They know when they go to a place like Per Se that they're gonna drop some major cash. They know when they go to a Grand Sichuan that they're getting some kind of Chinese food. They know when the go to Joe's Shanghai that they're waiting on line to get soup dumplings, so why shouldn't they know when they go to Ssam bar at lunch, they're pretty much getting a ssam? ← There's always the old "reasonable man" test. If someone goes into Per Se for a quick burger and fries, that's not reasonable. If someone goes into Joe's Shanghai, and doesn't know it's a Chinese restaurant, that's not reasonnable.But it's not normal for a restaurant's lunch menu to be so different from its dinner menu, that it amounts to two different restaurants. One could quite reasonably walk into Ssam Bar, with the very sane assumption that some version of the dinner menu—perhaps slimmed down, but still recognizable—is available at lunch. It is always helpful to be an educated consumer. But restaurant dining shouldn't be a research project. It can be highly rewarding if you happen to have the time and inclination for it (as most of us here do), but it isn't essential at any fine restaurant, and never should be. If you say "X is great...but you have to know when to go, and what to order," it's equivalent to saying "X, for the most part, is mediocre." ← I'll put it this way, 90% of the food served at Momofuku Ssam Bar is great. but then I don't have a position on Mt. Sinai that allows me to decree "Chang is an overrated chef because I had one lunch item and it sucked" and then have it posted on Eater followed by three pages of discussion on egullet.

None from me.But he needs to realize that Mimi Sheraton probably isn't the first, and she surely won't be the last, person to visit the "lunch restaurant," expecting something more like the "dinner restaurant." That's what the "normal" patron is going to assume, and Mimi is surely more savvy than most. As Chang's reputation builds, he cannot continue to assume that every visitor knows "the history" of the restaurant. I don't run Chang's business for him. He's going to have to decide whether he wants to keep deflating people's expectations. There's clearly no reason why some of the dinner menu couldn't be served at lunch also. The fact that different people are in the kitchen at lunch is irrelevant. That's what recipes and training are for. Jean-Georges Vongerichten has built a whole industry out of recipes that other people execute on his behalf. As Chang opens more & more Momofukus all over town, he's going to have to find ways to ensure that the product doesn't take a nosedive when he is physically absent. ← I don't disagree.

thanks for your report! Pegu Club is a disaster on the weekends (through no fault of their own). for whatever reason it's on the B&T/weekend warrior go-to list...and it's filled with vodka tonic orderers on Friday and Saturday evenings (although it has to be great for the bottom line!). the thing about NY is that most professional drinking is done during the week...thus the famous (albeit not quite true) line that "NY'ers don't go out on the weekends"

fwiw, I think she would be even more scathing over the wraps/burritos at Chipotle. they're significantly worse...for the same price. (Qdoba's a bit better than Chipotle in my recollection.)

That's true of many restaurants. ← To clarify my point: the cooks executing the dinner service are not the same cooks that are assembling burritos. ← They're even different...in a manner that is visually apparent. to put it delicately, they look like any EV quasi-fast food kitchen. at dinner, the kitchen is far more "multicultural"

I don't think that Mimi expected it to... Signature dish or not, Mimi's complaint wasn't about the taste or whether or not she personally agreed/appreciated the food. Rather, her observation (complaint) was solely about the quality of the food's execution. I don't go to Chipotle hoping or expecting to pay for a $6 over-greasy and soggy burrito, although that is what I may get. (For the record, I never have.) ← this is what she wrote: "The staff assured me that at night it is an entirely different place, menu and all, but some of his touted specialties were on the lunch menu. Most especially, there was "The Original Momofuku Ssam" with Berkshire pork, pickled shiitake, red kimchi puree, etc." So I ordered it." the only Chang "specialty" on the lunch menu is the Berkshire pork bun....and I'd argue that the trademark dishes have long since surpassed those (good) pork buns. it's blatantly obvious from that line alone that she's unfamiliar with the restaurant. (I don't have a problem with that...but like I said, this is Mimi Sheraton (which was referred to above as a "major critic" in the present tense)...whether fairly or not, her words convey the weight of authority and therefore require more out of her. not unless she wants to start commenting anonymously. "It was a messy, stewy wrap of steam table foods, much overcooked and characterless. What flavor interest there was came from the combination of many things together, and from my own generous addition of hot sauce. I opened the pancake to evaluate each item separately and found nothing more distinguished than anything I could get in a standard Tex-Mex wrap." I think she got a bad-apple here. The lunch ssam, although too sweet for my taste, isn't normally "overcooked and characterless"....as has been oft said here, even four star restaurants blow dishes. I don't doubt that she didn't find any of the individual ingredients "more distinguished than anything I could get in a standard Tex-Mex wrap"...but then Chipotle charges $8-9 for their burritos in NY too....and they have much better economies of scale in their sourcing. to me it's as simple as this, Chang likes to have two different restaurants in the same space at different times (this isn't unheard of in NY btw), one is a decent, cheap fast-food operation, one is something else entirely. Again, what's the meta-objection to this?

1. Chang doesn't serve "sucky food" at lunch. it just doesn't transcend the cost ($7-$10!!!!). 2. Mimi did say that Chang is "overrated" based on one lunch item. that's problematic. her words, not mine. 3. considering that if she merely read Bruni's review or followed Eater she would have known that the lunch ssam is not a "signature dish"...which she insisted upon despite being told otherwise by the staff (like I said, part of the problem is that "ssam" is a broad category)....I do think it's fair to say that she didn't do her homework.

Beebs - The best time to go to avoid a lineup is probably when it first opens (for the dinner menu) at 5pm, which it does on a daily basis. Have fun! ← or after 10. frankly, though, as part of a group of 2 or less, I've never had to wait longer than 20-25 minutes.

Nothing, but for the fact (the jury's still out on this one, I suppose) that it's apparently a sub-standard lunch, which I think is what Megan was getting at upthread. ← frankly, it'd be a substandard lunch for $25, but it's quite good for $7 (literally!).

Actually, what Mimi did was what most people do. She went to a restaurant that has a lot of positive buzz, and ordered like a normal person. She wasn't impressed, and probably won't go back.Obviously we have higher expectations for Mimi Sheraton, but she's no longer the most powerful critic in New York. She's just a private citizen. Just like the rest of us, she is not obligated to pay multiple visits and eat her way through the whole menu before passing judgment. And just like the rest of us, she is not obligated to turn every restaurant visit into a research project. She's spending her own money. Whether it's $7 or $70, if she doesn't like it, she won't be back—and she'll probably tell her friends. Which is exactly what she did. Defenders of Momofuku Ssam Bar have something in common with the defenders of other unusual restaurants, like WD-50 and Blue Hill. When someone says they don't like it, the defenders instantly assume that the detractors "don't get it." Just look at the responses on those respective threads whenever someone posts a negative review. ← I harshly criticized the lunch ssam up the thread (I think the hoisin is too sweet). the problem is that Mimi didn't go to the restaurant this thread is about. she went to a Korean Chipotle. it's two different restaurants under the same roof. unless one is a culinary Platonist...I don't see what the problem is with that. Mimi went to the wrong restaurant, it's as simple as that. it's just like confusing Masa and Bar Masa. Chang doesn't have the wherewithal for two separate dining rooms in that space. so? having been to dinner there a number of times, I can tell you that "normal people" aren't ordering burritos at dinner. (except for buns and lettuce bowls, they're the only option at lunch.) I realize this is blasphemy...but it's really as simple as this: Mimi Sheraton didn't do her homework. edit: the "but she's now a private citizen and doesn't have to do her homework" line doesn't fly for the simple reason that if she was just a private citizen, we wouldn't be bothering to have this discussion. if she wasn't Mimi Sheraton no one would give a ______'s ___________ what she had to say. so whether fair or not, she's not merely a private citizen. not so long as her criticisms have her name signed to them.

Maybe not $7 or 9, but J-G does some pretty cool things at lunch for $12. I'm not saying that MSB needs to match or should match what J-G is doing at lunch, but I am simply responding to your statement. ← not really...it's two courses for $28. you can't just order one course. plus the accompanying beverages are more expensive. and you can't get your food in 30 seconds (literally) or to go. but the point is, Chang is not going the JG route. he's going the fast food route. why can't he make his place a Korean Chipotle at lunch? what's wrong with that? what does that have to do with dinner?

according to their website, Cesca isn't open late. reviews from Citysearch or Menupages and a quarter will get you a phone call. I haven't been to Cesca but I've never heard bad things.

four things: 1. Mimi wrote that Chang was "overrated" based upon one item. so, yeah, she did make an overreaching assumption...blurb or not. . 2. what do people expect Jean Georges or Robuchon to do for $7-$9? seriously! what do you think you're gonna get? anyone who's disappointed off one $7-$9 item.............. 3. based on #2 I'm perfectly comfortable in saying that she isn't familiar with Ssam Bar or how it operates. 4. what Spaetzle_Maker said (except for the artichokes part)....especially the third part.

I agree with your general point...but the fact remains that despite being told by the staff (implying that she wasn't aware of this) that the dinner menu was entirely different, Sheraton still (understandably) persisted in thinking that the lunch ssam was a trademark dish. I do think that lunch at Momofuku Ssam is a waste. but, look at it this way, many many many people have confused the Nougatine Room with the Dining Room at Jean Georges. many many people have left the Nougatine Room (especially at lunch) underwhelmed, thinking they had tasted the best Jean Georges had to offer. the fact of the matter is, Chang offers a $7-$10 lunch and a "real" dinner. anyone who orders the former, expecting the latter, is going to be severely disappointed. edit: furthermore, its not like Chang is serving absolute crap at lunch. it's as good as any (if not better) $7-10 lunch in the city. he couldn't make it better without charging more. what the heck is wrong with serving a $7-10 lunch and offering a much higher end dinner in the same space? does this violate some sort of Platonic restaurant norm? (Randall Lane was explicitly offended by this.) Sheraton should have looked at her receipt and and figured that maybe she was missing something.