Nathan

that's pointless once you throw in travel costs and time. ← I agree. But from what I understand, the point of this thread is to let those NYC residents who might be interested in coming to NJ to eat know some of our favorite places and reasons to try them. Maybe some New Yorkers know people in NJ who are sick and tired of spending time and money to come to your beloved island every time you want to get together. Nobody says YOU need to cross the river. Why do you bother posting on this thread if that's how you feel? ← you said cheaper prices were an "enticement"...they're not because it's not cheaper. (as for the unrelated topic of NY'ers always expecting their friends to travel here (or Manhattan residents expecting their Brooklyn friends to come into the city)...there's a lot of truth to that accusation. our self-serving justification is that we have to pay far more to live here))

that's pointless once you throw in travel costs and time.

is it off the airtrain?

the more I think about it...I realized the problem with the car issue. FG is assuming that cars are distributed equally throughout Manhattan. they're not. people in my demographic generally don't have them or have access to them. transplants are the majority of the city (as are people under 40) and without family in the area, we have little need of road trips. other than the Hamptons or Fire Island in the summer (and driving there on the weekend at primetime is the height of stupidity), we fly to Europe or South America more often than we go outside of NYC in the tri-state area.

I'm a fan of Shanghai Cafe (though I've had decent enough meals at Yeah)....it apparently has a bit of a reputation in Shanghai as a NY go-to. though I'm told that the xiao long bao is inferior to that available in Shanghai (but that seems to be true of anywhere)

this is where my complete lack of interest in dessert or sweet items comes to the fore.

precisely. Ssam Bar has a chawan mushi right next to a lamb shoulder cooked with a classic French wine reduction next to a chicken ballotine next to fried brussel sprouts with fish sauce.

hmm...my problem with P*Ong, R4D and Chikalicious is that they don't really have any cooked savories.... liked that article.

function of the zeitgeist...well, frankly, I wouldn't qualify either of the Momofuku's as "Asian" restaurants. nor Barfry.

It's been about 8 months since this discussion of NP places began. at the time, it was Ssam Bar and Bouley Upstairs that prompted the discussion. Those of us purporting the existence of the NP had noted a number of common characteristics: chef-driven haute and rustic cooking combined in an informal, casual atmosphere, i.e. the chef as auteur...innovative food coming from chefs cooking what they wanted to cook...often genre-busting served in casual surroundings...removed from the fine dining model despite the presence of haute ingredients and technique. here's a list of current NY NP restaurants: Ssam Bar, Bouley Upstairs, Bar Room at the Modern, Tailor, Graffiti, Barfry, Fatty Crab (especially as it's become more ambitious), Noodle Bar (ditto). I suppose an argument could be made for Kampuchea as well....

thanks! here's the menu: http://www.menupix.com/nyc/restaurants.php?id=305741# although I think you could pretty much find all of those dishes by compiling a variety of NY restaurants...I'm not aware of any single one with that breadth... and that's certainly an easy commute.

I should say that other week I ended up in Jersey City (for non-food-related reasons), and was introduced to a very pretty restaurant with an excellent beer list and acceptable cocktails. on the other hand, the Little-Brazil style piano accompaniment was rather incongruous. but if I lived there I suspect I would be going to this place almost every night.

so I've got at least a two hour total commute to these (as yet unidentified) restaurants? that rules out any day besides Saturday.

right. Category 1 is the only one that interests me. that category I'd love to hear suggestions for (and they must be accessible via mass transit). otherwise we just run into a more extreme version of the "Brooklyn Fallacy" *-- good restaurants in Brooklyn just turn out to be slightly cheaper simulacra of good Manhattan restaurants...and that price advantage immediately disappears once time is factored in. Queens on the other hand has many restaurants without a viable Manhattan equivalent. what I want to hear about are the Queens restaurants in NNJ, not the Brooklyn ones. *this is why Moim is interesting...there doesn't appear to currently be a Manhattan equivalent

That is the comparison, exactly. ← yes, they have cars in L.A.

I think part of the problem here is that there are two Manhattans (well, there's more than that but for our purposes): uptown families...who often have cars or consort with other families with cars. and then the way most live...singles either with roommates or in studios and one-bedrooms. yes, four roommates living together in a large SoHo loft count as a household for census purposes...but in reality they're not. they're really four households.

huh? you're completely all wet when it comes to car ownership. the idea that most downtown Manhattanites have access to cars (except for those wealthy enough to have drivers...) is simply absurd. it's not a straw man, it's true. NY'ers don't have cars.

whatever. first, the def. of "household" is irrelevant to the way most Manhattanites live (yes, the traditional family households in Harlem and parts of the UWS and UES often have cars): second, my circle of acquaintances numbers a couple hundred. I can think of exactly two (I just remembered the other) with cars: both work in pharmaceutical sales and do a reverse commute. neither is going to lend me their car. third, yeah, there are a lot of cars on the street...most of them don't belong to residents. that's a fact. that's the point behind the congestion pricing proposal. fourth, we obviously know very different people.

well, zipcar removes any relative price arguments but that's irrelevant for quality. (it actually doesn't work for me anyway since my driver's license has expired but I'm atypical in that respect) certainly places off the PATH or Mitsuwa are accessible easily enough.

The phrase "dumbed down" is normally used in relation to a starting point. Pamplona's starting point was the unsuccessful Ureña. Pamplona isn't a "dumbed down" Bar Room, any more than it's a "dumbed down" Le Bernardin. ← cheez. here's my post: http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=97399&st=1715# it speaks for itself. I was explicitly comparing it to Bar Room and Casa Mono.

I'd really love to see some support for this. And even if it were somehow true...it definitely doesn't apply to downtown. I know hundreds of people (even a few Brooklyn or Astoria residents)...and to the best of my knowledge...only one has a car. (granted that I only know a couple people over 36, but they don't seem to have cars either.) and I'm pretty sure that my social circle is relatively representative of downtown...at least for this subject.

seriously, what does this have to do with Manhattan?

I'm going to partially agree and partially disagree: A. It's ludicrous to say that most Manhattanites have access to a car. yeah, people in Forest Hills all have cars. that's useless to me. I know exactly one Manhattan resident with a car...and he's not interested in driving to Jersey for food (or really anywhere). (in other words, NYC statistics are not germane. it's like when you read people in other parts of the country writing things like "NYC isn't that expensive. the average two bedroom apartment is only $1,300"!!!!!) B. yes, people who grew up here with family in the city often have occasional access to a car. but that's a minority of NY'ers. it's a documented statistical fact that the majority of NYC residents (not just Manhattan) were not even born in NY state. most NY'ers are transplants. we don't have the large web of family and schoolfriends here that a minority of NY'ers do. people who grew up here are actually atypical NY'ers. C. yes, I would like to see a list of Jersey restaurants accessible by mass transit that are significantly better than any NY equivalent. (I have no interest in traveling for hot dogs but for great Vietnamese food I certainly would, etc.) agreed that those should certainly be toured by any foodie.

A. I was wrong. He gave it two. B. I never said that Pamplona was "dumbed down" compared to other two-star restaurants. I said it was "dumbed down" compared to Bar Room. C. Bruni explicitly avowed my take on how he rates restaurants. He states that Pamplona is not as good as Urena (to which he gave two stars) but that it's cheaper and so it still gets two stars. No mention of categories.

I haven't been to Becco but it certainly sounds like the way to go.