Adam Balic

Do you know the history of p'titim in Israel, if it is a relative new product or has been used in some Jewish recipes historically? Also is p'titim always a formed pasta product like 'Israeli Couscous' or can it be made like mhammas as I desribed above?

Primitivo has been grown in the Puglia region for ~150 - 200 years, Zinfandel has been in the states since the 1800's, Crljenak has been in Dalmatia (Croatia) for longer then both these periods. All are the same grape variety. Primitivo is not a clone of Zinfandel. What isn't kown is if the US Zinfandel came from Puglian Primitivo or directly from Croatia. Most proberly the former as Crljenak is relatively rare in Croatia now. Also it is likely that there are large clonal differences between that Zinfandel/Primitivo, so they are the same grape, but they will not nessarily produce the same wine, even grown in the same location etc.

I think that for ~£5-7 per bottle, which is about what these popular Australian wine sell for in the UK, better wine is to had from France, Spain, Italy etc. But it is a question of being able to identify a brand and many French wines fail terribly at this. Jacobs Creek Shiraz may not be the most thrilling wine in the world, but it isn't undrinkable, which sad to say is sometimes the case with the cheaper French wine. Most people will not risk an unknown bottle, if they have been burnt by a similar looking bottle. I wonder how much market share the French have lost to the Australians because of people have been burnt by spending £7 on a bottle of swill quality Bordeaux and how much has been lost because Jacobs Creek was advertised during "Friends"?

You may have much more luck looking for them under a different name. "Israeli coucous" are a commercial name for a round durum wheat grain product the size of pearls, these are made like pasta. But Muslim communities have been making the archetype for these for sometime, not sure how long the produc has been made in Jewish communities. In Morocco they are known as "mhammas", in Tunisia "berkouche". These latter products "are made like couscous but dried in balls, rolled in onion juice, dried, and rolled again in more flour for a second round. This makes them larger and able to withstand boiling" (from Paula Wolfert). Best bet would be to visit a middle-eastern food store and describe what you are looking for, proberly best not to ask for Israeli coucous initially.

And if it is enzymes in the cork are responsible as most will be heat labile, to truely get the most tender octopus, don't cook it at all, just mix it with the corks and leave it for a few hours. Truely an experience that your guests will not forget. Can't find any evidence of the Portuguese cooking octopus (third highest landed "fish" in Portugal) with corks (supplies 40% of the worlds corks).

The Greeks have been producing wine for some time and corks as a closure for bottles is ~<200 years old. It would have been an expensive way to cook octopus if you had to take the cork bung out of a barrel.

Sadly Scotland is not a big octopus consuming country, consequently I am unable to obtain fresh octopus from the local fishmongers. So I leave the task to others. Could be fun actually, imagine: Invite the new neigbours over to watch "Aliens I, II, IV" (not II, it's shit), beers then serve up ten octopus. The will be so scared of you that they will proberly bother you again. On the other hand in Melbourne I did cook a 'shitload' of "baby" (actually they are full grown) octopus and the occasional 'mega-size' one. No corks though so I can't give you any tenderness data.

The major action of tannins on protein is to aggregate and even cross-link them. This is how you produce leather from animal hides during the tanning process. If tannin is involved in the cooking process of the octopus the logical effect would be for them to get tougher, not more tender. This cork thing frustrates me, I can see logical reason why it would effect the tenderness of a octopus. Many cultures eat octopus, but to date the only references I have seen to the cork thing are Italian and Croatian. Are the Japanese so stupid that they wouldn't have worked such a system out? The Greeks? If the effect of the cork is real, why don't people use this method to tenderise tougher cuts of meat meat during braising? I suspect that putting a cork with a cooking octopus does result in a tender octopus. But, I also think that octopus would end up tender irrespective of the presence of a cork or not. It's like putting a teaspoon in a champagne bottle to 'keep the fizz in'. Yes, overnight you will have fizz left in the bottle, but you would have the same level of fizz with or without the spoon. Still it would be interesting to find out. It would be a very interesting to compare say five octopi independently cooked with and without the corks. Another group could use synthentic corks as a control... Until such an experiment is done, the octopus and cork thing is firmly in the realm cooking myth.

Irwin - very interesting post, but just to clarify, are you saying that the modern word "Curry" derived in part from the OE "Curie" (= "cooking", derived from OF) or have I mis read you comment. I am also curious to know what the definition of a curry is? Not the Tamil "Kari/Karri" but "Curry". How do you differentiate a "curry" form another stew or braise? If it is a matter of spices, well there are many stews with spices that would not be considered a "curry". Also, at the period (late 16th/early 17th century) where "Curry" are first mentioned in English, the food in England would not have been that disimilar in taste profile, if not flavour profile. (Knox's reference even mentions that the Ceylon curries are soured with gooseberries (which is almost certainly incorrect, but these fruit where being used to sour stews back in England)). At this point in history how would you differentiate an English chicken dish, coloured with saffron, flavoured with ginger, cinnamon and pepper, soured with gooseberries/barberries/verjuice from a Southern Indian/Tamil dish coloured with tumeric, flavoured with different spices and soured with tamarind? I'm not sure that the dishes could be differentiated based on ingredients into "is curry"/"is not a curry". The differentiating factor must incorporate some type of "Geographic"/"Ethnic" factor. The best definition I can see is "Stew/braise with spices from the East". My take is that a "curry" can be a number of things, In the UK it is either derived from the pre-20th century British Raj type curry powders and pastes or the Anglo-"Indian" food that largely developed post-1950's. Much later on "Curry" became a catch-all for a whole range of Eastern spiced stews/soups/sauces and braises.

The witch doctor/child/pet/wife didn't die would be my guess....

Pan - do you know of any Asian authorities that have looked into the origin/history of "curry"? The oldest English references: 1598 W. PHILLIPS Linschoten 88 (Y.) "Most of their fish is eaten with rice, which they seeth in broth, which they put upon the rice, and is somewhat soure..but it tasteth well, and is called Carriel [curie]." 1681 R. KNOX Hist. Ceylon 12 "They..boyl them [fruits] to make Carrees, to use the Portuguez word, that is somewhat to eat with and relish their Rice." Indicate that it is associated with the Southern India/Ceylon, present day historians equate it with the Tamil "kari", but I would be interested to know what the non-European thoughts are on this. Apologies to Rachel for going off topic.

The use of the word "Bitter" was just an example of an unpleasant sensation, although not all references to "bitter" will be negative. "Bitter Beers" verses "Bitter Tears". But in general bitter flavours or sour flavours are the manner in which plants and some animals (insects) communicate "Piss off and don't eat me". But as you know not all bitter flavours indicate toxicity and in many cases it is a desirable characterisitic for people. Having said that it is worth noting that the majority of cultivated bitter tasting plants are far less bitter then their wild forms, in many cases this has gone hand in hand with reducing the levels of toxins.

A very interesting article and I enjoyed reading it very much. Charles Perry translated a 13th century Andalusian Arabic collection or recipes, many of these recipes contains ingredients that sort of fit into the general theme ( for a chicken stew: vinegar, one of murri naqî' (fermented barley sauce, similar to soy sauce/miso etc), oil, and pepper, coriander, saffron, cinnamon, thyme, rue, ginger, four cloves of garlic, almonds and walnuts)) and many of the earlier medieval Arabic/persian recipes from the middle east are similar. As much of the high class European society seemed to be based at some point on an muslim/Persian traditions (some of the early european cook books were translations of Arabic writings), I can see the possiblity of a link between the mole and a curry. I would guess that this style of cooking pre-dates Islam and it would be debatable if the Sub-continental "curries" were entirely derivative of Islamic influences, but the idea that the mole is a result of the fushion of two cuisines is very interesting. All food is the result of continuous fushion process after all.

I imagine that the chances of coming across a potentially new food item have been quite rare throughout most of human and pre-human history. I imagine that what happened was a variation on the theme of: Oooh look at that funny nut/berry/mushroom/root etc, I wonder if you can eat it? a- will ask if anybody has seen it before or has any information on it. b- if not will taste a tiny bit, if it is bitter/makes the tongue tingle etc, spit it out, if not wait a day and see if I am sick etc. If I feel OK, then goto d) c- If the nut/berry/mushroom/root etc is bitter, if I really need a potenial source of nutrition, I will cook/soak/squeeze out the juices and see if it tastes better, then goto b) d- Will eat a little more and see if I feel sick, if not, repeat again, if so goto c) It would have been sensible to have special people didicated to the task, as what may not kill you in small amounts , may do so in greater amounts. I would guess that these people spent a lot of the time being stoned out of their gourd or bumping off people they didn't like very much, claiming it was the will of the Gods etc, when actually is was some castor bean extract/fly agaric dust/finely slivered leopard whiskers mixed into the victims water/beer etc.

This is my recipe adaptation/bastardisation/rip-off of a recipe for quaking pudding from balmagowrie's "Lobscouse and spotted dog" (see link). This type of bread pudding is part of a whole bunch of similar type recipes, by changing the flavours and the ration of liquids to solids the variation in the puddings are endless. Christmas Plum pudding is a bread pudding, where the bread has become a minor or non-existant componant. Holyrood Quaking Pudding 6 egg yolks 3 egg whites 1 pint single cream 3 cups of fresh bread crumbs cup of crushed rataffia buscuits 2 large spoonfuls of marmalade pinch of ground cloves, teaspoon of cinnamon, 1/2 teaspoon of ground ginger, salt. (plus butter/flour for the pudding cloth) Prepared pudding cloth Beat egg whites and yolks seperately, add cream to yolks and beat together, do not thicken. Add breadcrumbs, crushed rataffia, mamalade and spices, fold in egg whites. Mix well, put in cloth, tie and boil for 45 minutes. Turn out and served with sauce of choice. Sauce: beat three egg yolks in a bowl over gently boiling water or in a double boiler with 2 tablespoons of dark brown sugar, add a good slug of rich muscat wine beat until thickened to a custard. You can add the whipped egg whites at this point if you want a lighter sauce. Lobscouse and Spotted Dog

The fish thing is apocryphal? Says who? It wasn't by any means the only reason for the suicide, but Mme. de Sévigné is pretty definite about it having happened, and I've never seen a convincing argument to the contrary. If you have, I'd love to know where. What certainly was apocryphal was the story about his "inventing" Crème Chantilly. The are numerous food history type references (not at hand ) that indicate the the sequence of no fish and suicide didn't coincide. What they suggest is that this was one of may fuck ups where he was trying to prove himself a better kichen manager then Varenne. Now that I come to think of it what is the difference between a chef and somebody that works them out and supervises their production, which is what Vatel did? If he was a steward then many cookbooks of the period were written by stewards for stewards so would Vatel be at least a steward-cook if not a chef? If a chef is somebody that actually has to get there hands dirty does this mean that Gordon Ramay is no longer a chef? This is (maybe) Vatel's last menu BTW: Anchovies Sevigne Melon with Parma Ham Lobster Quenelles With Shrimp Sauce Leg of Lamb Vatel Duck Saluted in Madeira Wine Strawberry Bombe Re: Careme - hurry up and write the book!

Hehehe, sucker. Vatel was a steward no? If so his role would have involved certian types of food prep, if not actually a chef. The fish thing is apocryphal, but still amusing. Careme and à la russe service: it would be interesting on his ideas about it and if it where ever going to catch on - obviously it doesn't suit his type of cuisine and presentation, but he was a very clever man.

Ah, now I see. Explains the mystery of why Melbournians keep on saying that the Souvlaki in Greece are rubbish in comparison to the local variety - proberly just a lamb v pork preference.

I'm not following you... It never arrives on time. "Francois Vatel, said to have killed himself over a failed meal at which King Louis XIV was the star guest. The fish had reportedly arrived late."

Does this mean every where or in Greece or in the USA? Melbourne has a very large Greek population (second largest after Athens I think) so Souvlaki is common, but I have never seen pork, only lamb or chicken.

Versailles? Would be OK as long as you avoided the fish.

I don't think that Cathy was into food that much. On the otherhand she would be great for a masterclass in sexual debautchery.

Careme - I would like to know what he had against dining à la Russe.

Catherine de Medici' chefs - to finally work out what they did and didn't know how to make. Escoffier - I would take him to a supermarket and tell him to whip up something tasty from what was available. Would be interested to see what he thought of tetra-pak stocks. Agnes Marshall - I don't really like icecream, but I for her I would make an exception and spend a day making and eating them.

Little old lady + 4 cans of cat food, loaf of discounted white sliced bread and a jar of jam = hope she has cats. Stressed looking mother with 2 hyperactive kids and a shit load of sugary snacks = you idiot.