[Dining in Provence]

We had a very good dinner at La Gueule du Loup in Arles. http://www.cityvox.com/profil/0,3997,ARLFR...?provenance=RES

They appear to be open for lunch as well.

[San Francisco, where do the locals eat?]

Is Laghi still around? I had several very good dinners there a few years back. Here are a few suggestions:

L'Osteria del Forno in North Beach for casual, real Italian "home cooking." Acquerello for elegant Italian.

Piperade is for Basque. Chapeau!, Clementine, or Fringale for a French bistro.

If you haven't been, Chez Panisse Cafe for lunch. Take the BART.

[Restaurants In Nice - Anything Nice?]

I had already mentioned L'Univers, but it is worth a second.

[Restaurants In Nice - Anything Nice?]

You might also consider a visit to Villefranche for lunch or dinner on the harbor. You should arrive before sunset if you go for dinner. It is a remarkably unspoiled setting, right next door to Nice. We had two very nice dinners at La Mere Germaine. The fish was very good and the service was great. If you drive, they have a valet, although finding your way down to the harbor can be a challenge. http://www.meregermaine.com/index_en.htm . There are other more casual places as well. The Chapelle St. Pierre across from the Hotel Welcome (which is superb) is well worth a visit. As is the Matisse Chapel in Vence.

In Nice, after lunching on the Cours Saleya, make sure you take the elevator up to the Chateau park, where the view is wonderful in all directions. You can see L' Ane Rouge on the old port from there, and remember it for dinner.

[Tartare]

Anyone been there yet?

[Restaurants In Nice - Anything Nice?]

You might try L'Ane Rouge http://www.anerougenice.com/ and L'Univers de Christian Plumail http://www.christian-plumail.com/ in Nice. Both are Michelin one star. We enjoyed both very much this last summer. Of the two, I think I prefer L'Ane Rouge.

[Trattoria vs. Ristorante]

Now that you put it that way, I'm definitely more trattoria.

[Cheap and good CA restaurants?]

Some of those reviews bring back memories. Yet Wah for instance. It was the first place I started learning about real Chinese food back in the early '70's when it was dirt cheap and good. I didn't even know it still exists. And many a time I was insulted by Edsel Ford Wong?? (I thought his last name was Fong) at Sam Wo. The food was only okay, but it was a great show. I still like Lefty O'Doul's for an Irish. If only they could tell me that the Green Valley Restaurant, New Pisa, Des Alpes, and the other Basque place across Broadway from Des Alpes (Resaturant du France?) were still around.

[Advice needed for Paris virgin]

You might try Le Cafe du Passage, 12 rue de Charrone, in the 11th. It's a very nice wine bar.

[Cheap and good CA restaurants?]

Thanks, jschyun. The review of L'Osteria del Forno, one of my favorite lunch places in all of SF, brings back fond memories. I'll check the others out carefully.

[French cuts of beef]

There are other places that include sirloin in the description of a NY steak. Sometimes it's New York sirloin, club sirloin, or strip sirloin. They are called by so many names from place to place that it is hard to keep track. I always ask what they mean if it isn't clear from the menu. When in doubt order a thick porterhouse for two- that's the same all over and is the best cut for a pure steak (in my humble opinion).

The muscle from which the tenderloin is taken continues into the sirloin area- it doesn't end where the short loin ends. The short loin ends where the bone structure of the hip begins, not where the muscles end. The same is true of the upper muscle- where the top loin comes from- it continues back into the sirloin area too, athough it changes in shape. The difference is in the bone structure. Sirloin steaks are named with reference to the bones in the whole cut: pin bone, flat bone, round bone and wedge bone. If you look at a whole bone-in pin bone sirloin, you can clearly identify the butt of the tenderloin at the bottom of the steak. It is the first steak taken posterior to the last porterhouse. Most sirloin steaks you see in markets are boneless, so it may be hard to find.

[Enoteca Pinchiorri]

Albiston, I certainly didn't take it as an attack on my opinion. I offered my experience more as a reminiscence than a review. Perhaps it's a sign of advancing age, but I find myself doing that more and more.

[French cuts of beef]

I will try to give you my understanding a little more clearly. First of all, I am familiar with the American method of butchering. I am generally familiar with some of the French terms for cuts of beef, but I'm not very familiar with the French method of butchering.

It is my understanding that the loin consists of the short loin and the sirloin. The loin section consists of two major muscles on each side of the vertebrae. The larger muscle begins in the front of the animal, travels through the rib section, through the short loin and the sirloin and continues back to the round or rump. The portion of this muscle found in the short loin is called variously the top loin, the contrefilet, the faux filet. When the butcher takes the short loin section of this muscle whole, it is a roast, the name of which varies across the U.S., but which I think is most generally call a shell roast or a top loin roast. If the butcher slices this section of muscle across the grain into steaks, they are called various names across the U.S., including New York steak (what most people in California call them), strip steaks, New York strip steaks, top loin steaks, Kansas City steaks, Kansas City strip steaks, shell steaks. The names sometimes change in an area depending on whether the bone is in or not. The most anterior of these steaks have no tenderloin below the bone, and sometimes they are called club steaks or Delmonico steaks, although those terms can also be applied to a rib steak. In the U.S., the names can be very confusing because what is called one thing in one place can be quite another in another place.

The second muscle on each side of the animal is the tenderloin, aka fillet of beef or filet de boeuf. It begins anteriorly behind where the front of the top loin begins. That is the reason the first top loin steaks do not have any tenderloin below the bone. The tenderloin gradually gets larger as it travels back through the short loin and eventually into the sirloin, where it terminates about in the middle of the sirloin section of the animal. The American T-bone steaks begin where this muscle first becomes visible and continue back as the tenderloin muscle gets larger. At a certain point as the butcher continues back cutting the steaks, the steaks cut in this matter become porterhouse steaks, which have a larger tenderloin section. At the point where the short loin ends and the sirloin begins, the two muscles change shape and continue, but the bone structures change, and these two muscles become parts of sirloin steaks.

believe that tournedos (thickly cut slices) & medaillons (thick disc cuts) - note the difference of cut - are both from the larger (anterior) end of the tenderloin. the chateaubriand is the thick center cut of the tenderloin; therefore, the tenderloin - from anterior to posterior - medaillons & tournedoes, chateaubriand, followed by the filet mignon cuts which are served as "1" thick roundish cut - vs. - the medaillons & tournedoes served as several discs or slices; which pretty much describes the different cuts from the tenderloin. actually, the chateaubriand is removed 1st from the tenderloin, then the filet mignons cut from

I don't understand what you are saying about "thickly cut slices" vs. "thick disc cuts." The tenderloin comes from a long roughly cylindrical muscle. The smaller end of this muscle is the anterior end and begins at about the last rib. (That small end of the tenderloin is where the French filet mignon are taken.) The muscle gets larger in diameter as it continues back through the short loin section and into the sirloin section, where it terminates as a larger, more rounded end, which is the posterior end, sometimes called the butt end or the rumb end. (To further confuse the situation, the small end of the tenderloin is often called the tail, presumably because it is smaller, even though it is anterior, and the butt end is often called the head of the tenderloin.) The fibers of the muscle run lengthwise. When forming all of the steak cuts from this muscle, the butcher cuts across the grain, forming a roughly cylindrical steak. As far as I can decipher, there is no real difference between medaillons (medallions in English) and tournedos. In the American version of Paul Bocuse's French Cooking for instance, which does suffer in the translation, he says, "The medaillon is a sort of tournedos (sic). They are both broiled or sauteed and garnished the same way. All the recipes for tournedos are applicable to medallions." Perhaps I have missed some nuance in these names, however.

chateaubriand normally the long center of the tenderloin, & served sliced

I agree with this. The chateaubriand is a cut from the thickest part of the center of the tenderloin muscle and it is sliced, usually at the table, after it is cooked.

The thickest end part of the tenderloin is actually in the sirloin section,

have to respectfully disagree. the sirloin is a completely different section from the tenderloin IF using US cuts' definition, & simply PART of the surloigne if using the French cuts' definition (see the string in previous reply)

See above.

have to disagree again, when use the term "bifteck" it is usually associated with a cut - bifteck de flanchet, etc...

I agree that the term bifteck is generic and can be used as you say, but I do not believe it is not always so. I am not at all clear as to how a French butcher handles the butt end of the tenderloin. I assume they slice it into steaks, but I'm not clear what they call them, other than bifteck. I checked Mastering the Art of French Cooking, and Julia Child calls that part of the tenderloin merely bifteck, so I assume that is where I originally got that idea. In the U.S., if the short loin is cut into T-bone and porterhouse steaks, that butt end of the tenderloin becomes part of the sirloin steaks.

The contrefilet (aka faux filet) is the upper cut of the loin, on the other side of the t-shaped bone. Together with the tenderloin, it makes up the short loin.

short loin, part of the loin, = the tenderloin + the TOP loin filet mignon from narrow end of the tenderloin, tournedos from the larger end; contre/faux-filet/ny strip from the top loin

I think that's what I said in the quoted section. The top loin IS the contrefilet (aka faux filet). It is the part of the short loin that is on the other side of the t-shape bone from the tenderloin section in an American T-bone or porterhouse steak.

The French filet mignon is indeed from the narrow end of the tenderloin. Tournedos come from the area next to the filet mignon as the tenderloin muscle gets larger. I am not sure what French butchers call steaks cut from the butt end of the tenderloin, but perhaps they are also called tournedos. If the entire muscle constituting the filet is removed in the U.S., American butchers would probably call steaks from this end fillet steaks or filet mignon.

T-bone steaks include the contrefilet and tenderloin in the area where the tenderloin is smaller (the same area from which the filet mignon and tournedos are taken)

i don't believe that is correct. as per above, not the same area. the T-Bone steak, from the center of the short loin, has the smaller filet "FROM the tenderloin" + the strip "FROM the top loin". there is not a comparable French cut.

The T-bone steak is cut across both the contrefilet (which is the same thing as the top loin) and the tenderloin, including the bone that connects them, in the area where the tenderloin is small (the anterior end). The first T-bone steak taken beginning at the anterior section of the short loin) has almost no tenderloin section. The next T-bone steak has a larger section of tenderloin, and so forth, until you reach the point where the T-bone steaks end and porterhouse steaks begin, with the centercut section of the tenderloin included. I believe you are correct that there is no comparable French cut. The French take the tenderloin and contrefilet (what you are calling the top loin) as separate cuts, and as far as I can see, discard the T-shaped bone in between then.

and porterhouse steaks include the contrefilet and tenderloin from the center cut of the filet (the area from which the chateaubriand or filet steaks are taken).

porterhouse, from the rear of the short loin, has the larger filet "FROM the tenderloin" + the strip "FROM the top loin. there is not a comparable French cut.

I agree with this- see above. The muscle that makes up the contrefilet (what you are calling the top loin) also continues into the sirloin section. That muscle doesn't end at the posterior limit of the short loin; it gradually changes shape and the bone structure changes.

What we usually call New York steaks in California are slices of the contrefilet without the tenderloin section. These steaks have several other names in other parts of the U.S. (strip, Kansas City strip, etc.), and can be served with or without the bone.

strip aka ny strip aka kc strip, possibly contre/faux-filet, not ny STEAK, & not served in slices. usually referred to a shell when with bone, strip when served boneless.

See above. I didn't mean to imply that a strip steak (our New York steaks around here) is necessarily sliced after it is cooked, athough if it is a very think cut served for two or more, it may be. In this quote, I was merely saying that the butcher slices across the top loin to create the steaks.

Whew! Sorry if that was too long.

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[French cuts of beef]

To further confuse this discussion, I was always taught the folowing: The filet mignon is taken from the small end of the tenderloin (aka filet de boeuf in French, fillet of beef in English), and usually is served as 2 or 3 slices slightly less than or about an inch thick and 1.5 inches in diameter. American butchers sometimes call all steaks cut from the tenderloin filet mignon, but the French reserve the name for the small end cuts. Tournedos are taken from the slightly larger (about 2.5 inches in diameter) area next to the filet mignon, and then the center cut of the filet (about 3 to 3.5 inches in diameter) makes up the filet steaks (if sliced about 1 to 1.5 inches think) and/or chateaubriand, aka chateaubriant (if cut about 3- 4 inches thick). The thickest end part of the tenderloin is actually in the sirloin section, although I have the impression that some butchers cut it into steaks and call them filets. I think the French call these steaks simply bifteck, which can also be a generic term for several kinds of steaks.

The contrefilet (aka faux filet) is the upper cut of the loin, on the other side of the t-shaped bone. Together with the tenderloin, it makes up the short loin. T-bone steaks include the contrefilet and tenderloin in the area where the tenderloin is smaller (the same area from which the filet mignon and tournedos are taken) and porterhouse steaks include the contrefilet and tenderloin from the center cut of the filet (the area from which the chateaubriand or filet steaks are taken). What we usually call New York steaks in California are slices of the contrefilet without the tenderloin section. These steaks have several other names in other parts of the U.S. (strip, Kansas City strip, etc.), and can be served with or without the bone.

[West Hollywood and (gulp) Anaheim]

I go to a seminar every year at the Disneyland Hotel in Anaheim, and always have to find a place for dinner one night. I second Napa Rose as being pretty good. If you don't want to spend as much or want something lighter, you can eat in the bar for much less and you don't need a reservation. I have also found Catal in Downtown Disney to be good. It has an outside bar area with more casual food, but that might not be as appealing in November as in warmer months.

[Bocuse and Lyon]

I would go even farther than Bux- I don't think Bocuse was ever very "creative" in the sense that we think about it today. I don't think he ever claimed to be. His cuisine, which hasn't really changed in decades, is the classic cuisine of the area at a high level. He is serving almost exactly the same dishes we had there in 1989. And they were classic then. The truffle soup, the Bresse chicken cooked in the pig's bladder, the rouget with the potato crust, the Loup en croute, the trays of fresh fruits assembled beside the table after the initial small dessert. He still pays homage to Fernand Point with one dish or another. I'm sure the Roquefort is still the best. I just wish I could go back, but my wife has refused, saying it would ruin the memory because it couldn't possibly be as before. Maybe next summer. If you go looking for tradition, I think you will be happy. If you are looking for avocado "ravioli" with crab, don't go.

Stay in the center of Lyon and take a cab if you go. I'll bet the waiter will walk you out and put you in the cab himself.

[Terry Theise on Fine Dining ...]

I have no doubt that the sommelier in question may have been insulted, but that doesn't make him right. The wine list reflects which wines the restaurant is selling customers and at what price, much like the menu shows want the food selections are. As tempermental as some chefs are, I don't think many are insulted when a diner wants to see the menu in advance. In my opinion, the sommelier should be there to assist the diner to whatever extent the diner wishes, not to try to show up the diner or be the center of attention.

[Terry Theise on Fine Dining ...]

I had dinner at Valentino in Las Vegas a couple years ago. I had been to original Valentino several times over the years and had generally enjoyed it. The sommelier was a piece of work. I asked him if he could suggest a wine in the $100 range, explaining what we were having. He replied very seriously that it would be very difficult within that range, but he would try. I told him that if he couldn't come up with anything good in that range, we would pick one ourselves. The food was actually very good, and the very competent waiter, slightly embarrassed by what had transpired, saved the night, but I'd never go back there. I think some sommeliers have forgotten why they are there.

[No Smoking in Restos in France including Paris]

Bofinger has designated its main room under the dome as non-smoking for sometime.

I for one am happy the "non-smoking militants" are having an effect. One good thing about restaurants in California is that we don't have to tolerate smoke ruining a meal any longer.

[French Dining Rituals]

I can accept that maybe the other table were regulars and got the lotte because of that. I don't buy the scenario that they gave the foreigners the last of the mediocre foie gras and served the other table something else because they were out, especially in a fish restaurant. Maybe they figured the foreigners would be more impressed by mediocre foie gras. I might have asked the overly friendly waiter about it. But maybe not.

[Carman And Son in Paris Nov. 8th-11th]

If he likes good food, I would go to the same good bistros recommended all over here. Order 3 courses and if you aren't out in exactly 2 hours, he's not going to care. The clubs aren't going to get going until way after you are finished anyway.

[Piperade]

We had dinner there last year and loved it. I can't wait to return. I thought it was a real bargain.

[San Francisco Saturday Lunch]

I just saw your last post. You might like L'Osteria del Forno, 519 Columbus Ave. (between Green & Union) in North Beach. Very small, simple (in a good way) Italian- very reasonable prices, no reservations, no credit cards.

I've always enjoyed the Slanted Door for Vietnamese food, although I haven't been there since they moved, and many people on here don't like it that much. It's in the Ferry Building at the foot of Market now. http://www.slanteddoor.com/ I have also had some good lunches at Betelnut on Union Street.

You could always have dim sum at Ton Kiang or one of the many other places that serve it.

[San Francisco Saturday Lunch]

After reading your many insightful posts in the France forum, I hope we can steer you in the right direction. My first recommendation for a Saturday lunch would be the Chez Panisse Cafe in Berkeley. http://www.chezpanisse.com/ There is some French influence, but it's not a French restaurant by any means. Compared to Paris bistros, it is going to seem expensive, but well worth the money in my opinion.

[SF Bay Area Top Five]

Chez Panisse (and Cafe)

Acquerello

Fleur de Lys

La Folie

Piperade

Chapeau!

Jeanty at Jack's

Osteria del Forno

Swan Oyster Depot

On List for next trip:

Gary Danko

Quince