robyn
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Robyn, would you happen to have any online sources for ordering Florida satsumas?
Sorry - I don't (although you could probably find something on Google). Don't know how the orange crops did this year. My Meyer lemon crop (from my one tree
) wasn't too terrific (couple of windy storms and too much rain at the wrong times resulted in a less than terrific harvest). Robyn -
Sadly, I agree with much of Lee Klein's article. The perception is that Miami is a town to party and vacation, not to conduct important business. But Las Vegas has recently experienced a turnaround in its culinary ranking, due in large part to the new entertainment investments from Steve Wynn and others. So being a major epicenter of business is not a requirement for culinary excellence, but it certainly helps...
Believe it or not - there are a lot of people who conduct important business in Miami. And a lot make a lot of money doing it. I know - I was a lawyer there.
But successful business people mind very much being treated like the tourists who flock to "trendy" south Beach restaurants. They don't want their reservations lost - or being told they'll be seated at 9 for an 8 pm reservation. They don't want a huge noise factor when they're dining. They are not in the least interested in "celebrity" sightings. And they don't want to pay a lot of money for food that can be good one night - and dismal the next.
I talk with my accountant (in Miami) about this all the time. He likes to try new places - and he is almost always disappointed by the Miami Beach scene (except for Nobu - which he thinks is the best restaurant on the Beach these days - which isn't saying all that much - at least the food is consistent). He'd much rather spend his food dollars elsewhere.
In my opinion - Miami would be much better off if it had a smaller, less trendy and less tourist oriented food scene (after all - the "season" in south Florida is only about 3-4 months long - not enough to sustain most restaurants). A food scene which made an attempt to appeal to local regulars. It is the lack of this "core" that makes Miami second rate. What makes all of this so disappointing is that 20-30 years ago - there was so much going on. So much promise. The meals that Norman Van Aken was cooking in Key West in the 70's were so much better - and so much more creative - than what I ate at Mundo last year (which I guess is one reason why it closed so fast). Robyn
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Florida has a ton of trendy restaurants - and if that's where you want to eat, this might be what you get. But there are so many other fantastic restaurants here. Even new ones, from hole-in-the-wall to expensive, South Beach places. For example, Vix is relatively new, and the chef has created a fantastic menu with awesome food based on his world travels and time on the "spice boat" (whatever that is, but it sounds cool). But the presentations are unique and certainly it could qualify as a trend-setter - a trend I would definitely follow with the only limitation being my budget.
There is GREAT food here, of course, given our climate and location. The only macadamia-crusted dish I've had here is a macadamia-crusted snapper I made, which was delicious because I was able to buy a snapper caught the day before from my nearby fish market.
Well - here is the rub. I took a look at Vix on the internet (FWIW - it's in a Hyatt hotel). It has received mixed reviews. From the looks of the menu - you're talking about $200-300 for a couple assuming some modest alcohol intake. Now in that price range - it has some pretty serious competition in terms of attracting my dining dollar ($200-300 is about what you'd spend at most top restaurants in the US - excluding perhaps the handful of most expensive restaurants in the US - like Per Se or Alain Ducasse). So is it in the top 100 - or even the top 500 in the US? Robyn
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I lived in Miami for over 20 years - and still get there a couple of times a year for business. I think the essence of the article is this:
"Ten reasons why Miami, though good, hasn't matured into a great restaurant city:
1. Our original innovative chefs are all still doing their thing, but much in the way the Rolling Stones are — they weave new dishes in with crowd-pleasing signatures, in an undeniably proficient fashion, but many have expanded their restaurant empires more than their repertoire or range."
Note that Mr. Klein didn't say that Miami was a bad restaurant city. It's just not a great one. I agree with that. And if anyone disagrees - tell me who and where the great chefs are?
His remarks about the "original innovative chefs" is right on target. I stopped going to Mark Militello's places after one too many disappointing meals. Tried Mundo (one of Van Aken's new places) when it opened - but it closed as fast as it opened. Tried to try Ola (one of Doug Rodriguez' new places) - but the restaurant closed without warning (and they didn't even bother to call me to tell me not to show up for my reservation). We did try Mosaico last trip. Pretty good (although not great). But it was more than half empty at 8 pm - not a good omen (perhaps it will go the way of La Broche).
Also note that Miami Beach is not the same as Miami. I have frankly hated the restaurant scene in Miami Beach for ages. Too many expensive restaurants with mediocre food served with lots of attitude. There are some exceptions. Osteria del Teatro was a favorite before the chef was shot - that was years ago. I've been to Casa Tua a few times - and it's charming (although very expensive even by New York standards). But they are few and far between. What's more important - I lived in Miami - and I stay there on my trips - and I don't think it should be necessary to go to Miami Beach to eat.
As for inexpensive ethic food - sure Miami has a lot of Cuban and similar places. But they are easy to find in most of Florida these days (even up here in northeast Florida). It was always deficient in terms of Chinese/Japanese/Indian/etc. ethnic type restaurants. Haven't tried any of those recently - but I suspect not much has changed in the last 5 years or so. Robyn
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Hi Ruth Reichl - I’ve been a fan of yours since your original review of Le Cirque 2000 – which you discussed in Garlic & Sapphires. And I’ve read all of your books. My husband and I had a lunch at Le Cirque 2000 in New York which was an “apology from the owner” for a rather bad dinner at Le Cirque in Las Vegas (we wrote a letter to the owner complaining about the dinner in Las Vegas – and he invited us to be his guest for lunch next time we were in New York). It was the kind of lunch where the risotto with lobster had a bunch of lobster chunks in it. And our server suggested that a glass of sauternes would pair well with the foie gras. In other words – it was fabulous - the Le Cirque 2000 where Ruth Reichl dined (well maybe not that good) – not the Le Cirque 2000 where Molly Hollis dined.
I’m not sure that I – as a tourist from Florida – would have received this first class treatment from Le Cirque 2000 were it not for the unique circumstances of the meal I ate there. And I never returned to the restaurant because I feared being treated as a second-class citizen. And having my memories of the first meal ruined.
There are still many restaurants in the United States and the rest of the world where the celebrities and the regulars enjoy one class of food and service – and the hoi polloi tolerate another. Having dined at many 3 star restaurants in the world where this does not happen – I’ve come to the conclusion that diners shouldn’t tolerate this type of separate and unequal treatment. So my practice is to avoid restaurants where I suspect this happens – since I cannot become a celebrity or a regular in a restaurant in a city I only visit occasionally.
What is your advice to diners if they are thinking about dining at a restaurant where they know – or have reason to believe – that a restaurant uses a double standard in how they treat the people who dine there? Regards, Robyn Greene
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I believe that the shipping restrictions are due to various citrus pests (citrus canker being an especially virulent one), which also affect other fruit trees. I've tried to order citrus trees from out-of-state plant nurserys and have encountered limitations on shipping destinations for the trees as well.
Don't know where you live. I live in Florida. It's illegal to import citrus trees from other states here. Fruit is usually ok - unless it's been restricted by the federal government. Here's a website which discusses the rules.
I'm sure that all states with animal and plant interests have laws protecting what's in those states.
By the way - I live here in north Florida where satsumas are grown. There's a town called Satsuma which isn't too far from where I live. Robyn
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A brief followup....
The best laid plans....
You all gave me a couple of excellent ideas - but when I went shopping with the list of ideas - well the fresh shrimp looked fantastic (we have a shrimp fleet here and I guess the boats had a good catch that week). So I just bought a bunch of shrimp and made shrimp Louis. Not Italian at all - but it was a light and refreshing start to the meal. I did buy an Italian cheesecake and Italian cookies at a local Italian bakery - so I managed to get back on theme later in the evening
. Thanks for your ideas. I will probably wind up using a few in the future. Robyn
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Several newspaper articles have appeared recently warning against the health risks of actually cooking the stuffing inside the bird; apparently bacteria can grow depending on the temperature of the turkey, and cooking time can be different for the bird itself and the stuffing.
Any good ways of making tasty stuffing on the stove top or separately in the oven? (And not that Stovetop brand stuff, please! It's horrid!)
This is a day late and a dollar short for this Thanksgving - but perhaps it will help in the future. I used to make my stuffing in the turkey. Don't know whether it was unsafe - but it always came out a bit greasy - and I had to "cut it" with uncooked stuffing to lighten it up. Plus I never knew what to do with the stuffing while I was letting the turkey "rest".
Then I found a recipe for stuffing made in the oven in the NYT (from Tom Colicchio from Craft) that was quite good. I modified it a bit - and you can modify it more. But it basically goes like this.
Cook a pound of your favorite sausage (I use Jimmy Dean with sage) - crumbling it as it cooks. Leave the sausage fat in the pan and drain the sausage on paper towels.
Saute some carrots - celery - a couple of leeks - a small onion - a fennel bulb - and a couple of cloves of garlic - all diced - in the reserved fat. Add some butter if you need some more fat.
Beat up 4 eggs with 2 cups of chicken broth. Add bread cubes (I use a 1 pound bag of regular Pepperidge Farm stuffing) - but you can use bread cubes to taste.
Add the sausage and sauted vegetables to the bread mixture.
Add 2 tablespoons of toasted fennel seeds - and a cup of golden raisins soaked in hot water to plump. Add some thyme and sage (1 tsp. to 1 tablespoon depending on whether fresh or dried).
Bake in 350 degree oven covered for 30 minutes (I use disposable metal pans covered with aluminum foil). Remove foil and bake until stuffing is brown - about 10 minutes more.
You can make this in the morning - put it in the refrigerator - and then cook in the late afternoon. If refrigerated - the cooking time will be longer.
This is just a basic recipe. If you don't like fennel or raisins - you can leave them out. If you want some other tastes - you can add things. This will wind up moist and light and tasty - and - although it lacks "the taste of the bird" - you can remedy that by adding some pan gravy. Robyn
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My mother and my grandmother make something called Bing Cherry salad which is basically a black cherry jello where instead of water, you add some orange juice with whole bing cherries from a can and pecan pieces. (Sliced as you describe into squares and served ontop of lettuce).
Everyone in the family loves it - I don't so I haven't continued this particular tradition.
My recipe sounds similar - but it uses sour cream. It's hard to dislike anything that's made with sour cream
. Robyn -
We're going to dinner at a friend's house this weekend. They're doing the main meal (first course = pasta - second = grilled fish). Simple Italian. I'm doing appetizer and dessert. Any ideas for something light to start? It should be fairly simple to eat (so our hosts can munch while they're cooking) - pre-made (except perhaps for heating) - and designed to travel well. I'd prefer to do Italian - but no one will kill me if it isn't Italian. I was thinking of making some caponata - but I'm not sure I can find eggplant in the stores now. Robyn
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I have a recipe for a very retro cranberry jello salad. Cherry jello - walnuts - sour cream - pineapple and cranberries. I have no idea whether it's southern. It is - however - very tasty. If you're interested - give a holler and I'll type it out. Robyn
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Not really an encouraging report for a new annointed Michelin 3-star restaurant.
Pacing is an interesting thing since many diners have very different opinions on how long meals should take. Regardless, 2 hours for a restaurant of that caliber seems much too fast.
I'm considering going back to Le Bernardin over the holiday season but it seems as though it's not "wowing" people.
Many diners may have very different opinions about pacing - but 2 hours for a meal like this isn't enough.
I think a high class restaurant that tries to turn over tables fast should warn potential diners. This may sound silly - but I ran across a restaurant that does this (Gordon Ramsay in London - 3* Michelin - has a warning on its web site that it reserves the right to kick you out after 2 hours on a busy night). Forewarned is forearmed. After reading this - I asked about lunch. They said "no problem" - lunch is basically a single seating - and you can take as much time as you want. So we ate lunch there instead of dinner (took a little over 2 1/2 hours for a 3 course lunch).
Anyway - this pacing thing is a pet peeve of mine. A dinner we had at a well known Chicago restaurant was almost ruined when it seemed to be trying to break the world's record for turning over tables. We asked them to slow down very near the start of the meal - and they did. But when we got to coffee - they told us our "meter had expired" - and requested that we have it served in the bar area (where people were waiting to be seated). A while later - there was an article in the WSJ about turning tables too quickly in high end restaurants - and this particular restaurant was listed as a prime offender.
Anyway - apart from eating lunch at places to try to avoid "table turnover syndrome" - I recommend eating at single seating restaurants - or eating on relatively slow nights of the week (like Monday and Tuesday) instead of weekends. Robyn
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As I get older - I find it more difficult to tolerate large amounts of very rich food. And I never could tolerate novelty for the sake of novelty. My husband - being older than I am - is worse than I am when it comes to these things. He was somewhat indisposed after dining at La Folie (too much too rich food)
Regarding rice - sure California grows a lot of rice. I just think it's silly to grow rice in the desert (guess I'm more in tune with the urban water activists than the agrarian water activists - who survive because their water is heavily subsidized). Makes sense to grow a lot of things in California. Rice isn't one of them. Robyn
Right on, about growing rice in the CA desert. When I worked for Cal PIRG briefly in the 90s, I learned agribusinesses had 100-year water leases that assured them water at something like $3/sq foot of water, versus the $80-90 small farmers had to pay. While ordinary folks were being admonished for making the drought worse, with all of our selfish flushing.
Robyn, I want you to know that, because dining at La Folie is not as enjoyable for you as it might be, I am going to pick up the burden of doing so. Tonight. For my friend's birthday. That will be a special menu and wine pairings created for us.
That's just the kind of person I am.
And I'm betting there'll be a foam of some sort involved.
Let us know how the meal was.
One additional comment about creativity. Why is it frequently presumed that creativity has to involve things like foam - pacojets - liquid nitrogen - or sous vide (note that I'm necessarily down on all of those things - they just seem to be hallmarks of "creative" restaurants)? What about food that is simply out of the ordinary? When we ate at Per Se - we had a pork dish with an unfamiliar (but delicious) cooked fruit which married so well with the pork. I asked what it was. It was a pluot. Something I buy in the supermarket but never used in that way. Never saw one on a menu before then - or since. And Chez Panisse was the first place I ever ate a dish that had quince in it. I can buy my own Niman Ranch or Jamison stuff on the internet these days. Those names on a menu don't impress me (if for no other reason than everyone seems to have them). But when a chef teaches me how to use a pluot - well that's something. Robyn
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I think you miss my point. I agree with Chef Patterson that the Chez Panisse style cooking is very common in the bay area, but I don't find that to be a bad thing, he apparently does. California grows more rice than most rice producing countries nevermind the other states. I think the place to draw the line on the local vs shipped in debate is around things that travel well and things that don't. I wouldn't ship a ripe tomato to florida nor would I ship a fresh loaf of bread, but why not ship dry goods or sturdy meats? Niman is far from my favorite purveyor of meats, and their animals are raised all over the place, but they are a fair example of a producer that gets (got) a lot of menu placement. Salmon outside the pacific states is a tough example, sure you could pay for it to be shipped overnight or eat farm raised salmon, one is expensive the other an inferior tasting product - its your call.
So Robyn, that dish you had as your main at Chez Panisse, could you make it at home given a few containers of leftover meat?
edit: holy crap is this post incoherent.
Not incoherent at all. I agree with you 100% about shipping. I won't eat a stone crab north of Palm Beach - but I'll eat cheese shipped from France (only thing that suffers from shipping the latter is the Fedex truck - which winds up reeking of cheese). As for salmon - the fish we get here - both the farmed from south America and the wild from the Pacific northwest - travel fine - and cook up fine. Perhaps they aren't as good as the ones you caught this morning - but they're far from bad. Of course - when you deal with shipping - a lot depends on what's shipped - who's shipping it - and who's selling it. I find that the larger purveyors here (Costco, Publix, etc.) generally do a better job with fresh things than the smaller boutique type places (which have much less turnover).
In thinking about this thread - San Francisco is a very tourist oriented city. And since I'm a tourist when I go to places like San Francisco - when I'm dining I want to get the best of what the city has to offer - what's served there that it would be hard to find elsewhere. And I guess for me - that meant food in the "Chez Panisse" vein. Relatively simple cuisine with an emphasis on local agricultural abundance. Perhaps there are lots of other visitors who think the way I do - and that explains the "tilt" in terms of which restaurants succeed - and which don't.
Of course - I have my likes/dislikes and prejudices. As I get older - I find it more difficult to tolerate large amounts of very rich food. And I never could tolerate novelty for the sake of novelty. My husband - being older than I am - is worse than I am when it comes to these things. He was somewhat indisposed after dining at La Folie (too much too rich food) - and when I start to describe places like the Fat Duck in the UK - well let's just say that he's not keen on places where nitrogen canisters and the like are an essential part of the dining experience.
Regarding rice - sure California grows a lot of rice. I just think it's silly to grow rice in the desert (guess I'm more in tune with the urban water activists than the agrarian water activists - who survive because their water is heavily subsidized). Makes sense to grow a lot of things in California. Rice isn't one of them. (And so you won't think I'm picking just on California - it doesn't make sense to grow sugar in Florida either - only reason it's done is because of price supports).
As for making the dish at Chez Panisse - sure I could make the dish if you gave me the Chez Panisse leftovers from which it was made - and told me how to season them
. That's like saying I could make a great sauce if someone gave me a quart of veal stock from Alain Ducasse (instead of the miserable stuff they sell at places like Williams Sonoma). I'm a decent home cook - but "a man's got to know his limitations" - and I do. Which is why I don't make "mystery meat" leftover patties or veal stock based sauces. However I'll pit my fresh homemade pesto (made from the basil in my backyard and high quality cheese - pine nuts - and olive oil) against anyone's! Robyn -
Melkor - I have a question. What if an ingredient for a dish - or the products of a particular purveyor- aren't available in San Francisco? Is there any orthodoxy about what one should or shouldn't do? E.g., I don't think there are fresh local saltwater shrimp in northern California. Does that mean no one does/should cook with shrimp? What if Niman Ranch (I assume that is the favored beef purveyor in San Francisco) is out of beef? Keeping in mind that some things (like shrimp) tend to travel well - while some things (like local crabs - whether they're blue - stone - or Dungeness - don't - at least in my opinion).
And should those of us who live thousands of miles from where salmon live never eat salmon? Should neither of us eat bread because we can't get local wheat?
I've read a fair number of chef comments on menus about not serving certain kinds of fish because of environmental concerns. But I've never seen a similar comment on a menu about rice - even in California - which is one of the silliest places to raise rice I've ever seen.
I think that what Mr. Patterson is complaining about is not the bounty of the area you both live in - but an orthodox approach to food which might preclude a chef from serving shrimp in San Francisco or salmon in Florida because neither is "local" (I won't get into the organic/non-organic argument - if Florida farmers tried to do "organic" - in most cases - everyone who ate organic would be eating more bugs than produce). Or an orthodox approach to food which might preclude a chef from serving an item which is politically incorrect (as publicized as the foie gras wars are - I think California rice - which requires so much scarce water - is actually the greater evil).
I have some understanding of what a local orthodox approach to food here means. There's a "settler village" exhibit here which - once a year - puts on a production. One of the highlights is how the settlers used to eat - from local sources. You can sample as much as you want. It isn't all that tasty - or even nutritious. So I for one am glad to have access to the best the world has to offer me these days.
By the way - the "main" I had at Chez Panisse for lunch was leftover beef (not specifically leftover Niman Ranch beef
). Parts of short ribs - brisket - etc. Shredded - assembled into kind of a small burger - seasoned - and lightly fried. The dish had an Italian name (forget what it was) - but it was basically a way to deal with leftovers (which in my opinion is one mark of a good chef - not wasting anything!). Didn't seem very orthodox - but it was mighty tasty. Robyn -
Hi Daniel - You are certainly very welcome in this discussion. Certainly more so than I am (after all - I'm just someone who visits San Francisco once in a while).
What you say is very interesting (although there's a typo in your message - you typed "blue state" instead of "red state"). I am from northeast Florida - a very red part of a red state.
I find your use of the phrase "agrarian fantasy" particularly intriguing. A few years back - my husband and I attended a session at Cornell Adult University (we did that frequently - and I can recommend lots of the courses there - they are basically one week intensive courses for adults covering a huge number of subjects). This course was called "Farming in the Finger Lakes - The Myth of the Family Farm". Taught by a professor of agricultural economics in the ag school. Five mornings of lectures - five afternoon field trips to various agricultural operations. The point was that even in a "liberal" area like Ithaca NY - although there were some "boutique" type operations that did ok - the vast majority of local farmers - if they wanted to succeed - had to go "big and corporate" - whether they were dealing with dairy cows or chickens. What one sees at places like Union Square in NYC is not necessarily representative of the majority of people upstate who make a living raising animal or vegetable food products.
Florida is a very agricultural state (agriculture is second only to tourism in terms of state income). But most of our agriculture is huge and corporate (even when it's not "corporate" - it's very large - e.g., the Mormon Church has huge land holdings where it raises things like citrus). It's basically an economy of scale. There are a few boutique places that raise organic and/or exotic fruits. But most of the world wants/needs plain old juice oranges. At the lowest possible price (which is one reason why Florida continues to lose market share to lower cost countries - like Brazil). I was talking with a beef cow herd owner at the county fair last week - and although he still sells at the county fair - he has moved all of his herd to Oklahoma - because the cost of raising beef in Florida - it used to be the second largest beef state in the country - is no longer all that competitive (most of the cattle land has become too expensive for cattle).
In my particular county - the two largest crops are cabbage and potatoes. More cabbage and potatoes than you can imagine. The farms aren't small boutiques. You're not going to find purple heirloom potatoes or heirloom cabbages (is there such a thing as an heirloom cabbage
?). But the produce is good and fresh when bought locally and served up by some of the best restaurants in the area (like Opus 39 in St. Augustine) - or sold at local markets (even if they are large chain markets like Publix). Apart from cabbage and potatoes - and collards in the winter - okra in the summer - some local pepper products - and shrimp from the local shrimp fleet (we do have wonderful local shrimp) - everything we get comes from somewhere else - even if "somewhere else" is south Florida - which is over 300 miles away.People have asked me why north Florida can't be like San Francisco or other places - why we can't have wonderful farmers' markets filled with local bounty. And the simple answer is not that much can be raised here. We're 90+ in the summer - have hard freezes in the winter. Sometimes months without rain - then 5 inches in a day. We can raise things like tomatoes for only a few months a year - when the 90+ days start in May - the bugs come too. As an amateur gardener - I can tell you that it would take a whole bunch of chemicals to keep all those bugs out of the tomatoes until June (and forget about July and August). I just lost all of my Meyer lemons (they split before they got sweet in the first cold of the season - so I had to settle for bitter Meyer lemon juice) because we had too much rain this summer. I suspect my area is typical of most areas in the US. You can grow/raise some things - but there's not a lot of variety. And - in most parts of the country - you can only raise the items that do well in a particular area at certain times of the year. That is certainly one reason why regional cuisines developed. Perhaps San Francisco is the regional cuisine of "agricultural abundance" most of the year?
Anyway - that is my "food for thought" tonight. And I have to ask you (as I asked in another message in this thread) - what do you think is "innovative cuisine"? When I looked at the front page of the style section in the New York Times this week (where your article appeared) - I had no idea what it was. So I had to look it up inside (and found out it was a lobster claw with a laboratory pipette filled with lobster essence - from MiniBar in Washington - accessorized with some diamonds). It looked very dramatic - especially the diamonds
- but is there anything all that innovative about putting the sauce for the lobster in a piece of plastic? Glad you can join us. Robyn -
Always liked Patterson from the old ElisabethDaniel jewelbox.
"The issue is that everyone seems content with one narrowly defined style of cooking." --that's why SF restaurants are so boring and homogenous.
But what can shake it up? He's right about the rigidity of class: look around you next time you're asked to eat at ZuniA16IncantoOliveto. See much variation in color, politics, etc?
Despite it all, I still love Chez Panisse. It's the offspring that's tedious.
Anyone know about Daniel Patterson's upcoming restaurant?
Having returned recently from a trip to San Francisco - I didn't find the dining "boring". Far from it. And if I hadn't read that the chef/owner of Quince was an alumnus of Chez Panisse - I wouldn't have known (the food at the 2 places was very different). I didn't sense any rigidity in the city at all - except the rigid insistence on eating good food.
By the way - I am curious what people in this thread mean when they use the word "innovative" to describe a restaurant. What are the "innovative" restaurants in New York (or other cities in the US - just to give me a frame of reference)?
As for variations in color, politics, etc. - well - I have to laugh at that one. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I live in a very red area of a red state - and the differences between San Francisco and NYC must be cultural sub-variations that only someone from Manhattan can understand
. Robyn -
...I had dinner last month in London, at Tower 24, which is I think Michelin one star. It was fine, but nothing special. The Indoneson Fried Rice I had last night in a very modest London place was better than anything at Tower 24...
You mean Rhodes 24? A couple of members here praised it last year when I was asking about London restaurants. They were particularly fond of the mutton and suet pudding (which didn't sound very appetizing to me - but they set me straight on the issue
).The more important point is that the validity of any guidebook or reviewer (professional or non-professional) can't be judged by whether someone disagrees with a particular restaurant rating (or even a bunch of ratings - since some are harsh graders and some are lenient graders). The only issue is whether the guidebook or the reviewer helps you to make intelligent decisions about where to dine. Which is a function of 1) the nature of the guidebook or the reviewer; and 2) your nature. Some restaurants - and restaurant practices - are controversial. So you have to learn which sources best lead you to the kinds of places *you* like. It's a very personal thing.
On my part - whenever I'm making choices about where to dine when I'm on the road - I frequently use multiple sources to make decisions. And even with the best of homework - my experiences run the gamut from homeruns to strikeouts. But sometimes I use a single source. Best example of that is when I tried ADNY because a single voice in the wilderness - the old fatguy.com - said the place was terrific - while the rest of the mainstream press was dissing it. The reaction to the new Michelin guide kind of reminds me of that initial New York press response to ADNY. Robyn
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...If you want to go to the dozen or so places that are ultimate New York dining experiences, you go to Peter Luger, you go to Papaya King (also not in the guide), you go to Katz's, you go to a few upscale European-derived places, you go to a few Asian places. This isn't a question of lowest common denominator popularity -- this is the guidance you're going to get from most knowledgeable, experienced observers of the New York dining scene who have international perspective and exposure...
I don't think any Michelin guide purports to be "a guide to all the places a tourist should eat in city or country X to get the flavor of the place". For that - you buy Frommer's. In its guide to Japan (which I have on my desk now) - the list of "Best Culinary Experiences" at the beginning of the book includes everything from "Experiencing a Kaiseki Feast" to "Slurping Noodles in a Noodle Shop" to "Buying Prepared Meals at a Department Store".
Perhaps someone writing a similar list for New York might include a place like Papaya King (I've managed never to have heard of it after all these years - but it seems from its web site that it's a local frankfurter and fruit drink place which also sells franchises - and frankfurters to supermarkets) - but that doesn't mean it should be in a Michelin guide. Robyn
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Nathan, the core selling points of the Michelin guide are -- as best I can tell based on the vague marketing literature -- that it has great integrity, expertise and scope. It is hardly a red herring to point to attributes of the guide that contradict those claims. The seemingly lowered standards and Michelin's dodgy record of conduct in Europe (not to mention the contradiction between the high falutin' language of independence and the coziness and shared publicists with the chefs being rated in the New York guide) go directly to the question of integrity. The French restaurant choices are pretty solid, but the laughable categorization and randomness of inclusion with respect to other cuisines goes to the issue of expertise -- the people who put this guide together seem to know very little about, for example, Chinese food. In terms of scope, exclusions like Katz's deli -- widely acknowledged by a large cross-section of people who comprehend deli as having the best pastrami in the world -- indicate some pretty sad methodology, and what we've learned from the tell-all book published in France is that it's possible Michelin didn't visit Katz's at all or that only one possibly underinformed inspector did -- or maybe more did, but we have no way of knowing because Michelin keeps all it proceedings secret, all the credentials of its inspectors secret, and asks simply for our trust. So, if the core selling points turn out to be unsupportable, all we're left with is that the Michelin guide is not as good as a list that a bunch of people who dine out a lot could create in an evening.
Is it possible that Michelin viewed Katz's deli as primarily a place that sold food as opposed to a restaurant? After all - there are lots of places that sell food that also have tables. Does Michelin treat places like this in other countries (places like Harrod's food courts - Fauchon - etc.) as restaurants - or food stores?
Also - if this is the worst criticism of the guide - that it doesn't list the deli most people think is best (or the best hot dog place - or the best pizza place - etc.) - I don't think it's a very damning criticism. Robyn
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Wow - strange - I'd like to see that - all the Michelin Green and Red guides I've ever seen have the blue and white Michelin logo with a "naked" Michelin man.
Some of the newer guides I have show that naked white man. But most of the older ones show the guy in garb which is stereotypical for an area (like the New England guide has him dressed as a pilgrim - the Spain guide has him dressed as a matador - the Dordogne guide has him dressed as a truffle hunter - complete with a yellow pig
).To get back to another point - after I wrote a message a couple of days ago - I thought about the Le Bernardin issue a little more. Apart from Senderens - I wondered - what will Michelin do with a restaurant like Chez Panisse when it gets to San Francisco? It is certainly not a fancy place - but the food we had there last month was extraordinary (and we had lunch at the Cafe!). Best meal we had in San Francisco. Best meal we've had in a long time. Chez Panisse is not going to get fancier to accommodate Michelin. Will Michelin have to change to accommodate an institution like Chez Panisse - and similar places in the US?
Also - I took a quick look at the Michelin website tonight. For anyone who thinks that something like a Michelin print guide is out of date - you have to see the GPS and PDA items they have for sale. I think Michelin has entered the 21st century. Robyn
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btw, Robyn, reading up the thread (I've been in Rome the last few days so I was catching up)....I noticed that you referenced Brassiere Le Coze....I've eaten at the one in Atlanta (I think it's still in operation) and should note that it's not really to be compared to LB -- they're very different restaurants...one is casual seafood at a low price point and the other is a much more upscale take.
I've seen the restaurant in Atlanta (never dined there) - and the one in Miami was both fancier (the owners spent a fortune on the place - it was really quite beautiful) and more ambitious in terms of menu. It was the 80's in Miami - and Miami was flooded with money - not necessarily from legitimate sources. At the time - the restaurant and the city were a good fit. I think I read that the place in Atlanta was either closing or moving to another location in Atlanta - I'm not sure. Robyn
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Robyn, have you been to Devi? I still haven't been there yet. Would anyone like to argue they merit a Michelin star?
Have never been to Devi. Most recent meals were at Dawat and Chola (mostly because they're reasonably close to Bloomingdales
). Robyn -
Re "ethnic" food and Michelin. I don't think it's a valid criticism that Michelin can't evaluate "ethnic food." Based on my experiences with many "ethnic" foods outside their countries of origin (including everything from French food in Spain to Chinese food in France to Indian food in the UK) - the restaurants range from terrible to mediocre to sometimes pretty good (but certainly below 1 star Michelin standards). That is as true of Italian food as Indian food in New York. I find that the best of these places are generally really good neighborhood places. In New York terms - they are not worth a trip downtown if you're midtown (or vice versa).
Awww. c'mon Robyn - even the Michelin man himself is white - though he is a man made of tires.
I would like to have been a fly on the wall in that branding meeting all those years ago... "What we want is an illustration of a man made of tires as our mascot, but we can't have a big black man running around representing us - so..."
No offense to you but the word ethnic is so misused to lump things into a category, a use in which it loses it's definition of, "Of or relating to a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage." - and becomes "anything that isn't made by white people".
Though, I suppose when you are on one side of something, everyone tends to describe it in a manner which implies things in this divisive nature - for instance I'm told that in Vietnam - it's "The American War".
The thing about this paragraph I've quoted is that, based on this theory, it nullifys the star ratings of all the French restaurants because they are serving "ethnic cuisine" - "outside of their country of origin" - so I guess "In New York terms - they are not worth a trip downtown if you're midtown (or vice versa)."
Stick to eating French food in the French neighborhoods.
Edit: BTW - before anyone says, "You are implying that only people of a given ethnicity are qualified to evaluate food of their culture".... no, I'm not - nor do I believe that - it's just a joke.
A lot of the Michelin guides I have (only ones I have around now are the green guides) show the "white" Michelin man dressed in black and yellow clothes on a green background. Guess you could have made him yellow with black and white clothes - but I don't think the graphics would look as good
.As for "ethnic" - I think I pretty much followed your definition (e.g., I cited French food in Spain).
I really haven't eaten a lot of "French" food in the US (or New York) in recent years. I don't think of the cuisine at Per Se or Jean Georges as French. Not exactly sure what it is - contemporary high end American cuisine? - something like that. Even ADNY states that it serves "the best American produce prepared with French expertise". Does that make it a French restaurant? I don't think so. Robyn
Michelin versus New York
in An eG Spotlight Conversation with Ruth Reichl
Posted
You mean now - or always? I dined there way back when it had 3 stars (before it lost stars and got them back). It was certainly a 3 star place way back then (can't vouch for it now). Robyn