mongo_jones

funny what's your opinion of the restaurants there though?

to redeem myself i'll say only that i am jealous. parsi food is rare even in india outside of bombay (except in parsi homes). and there's little approaching such articulated regionality in the bleak indian culinary landscape in the states. i have to say i am impressed by the vindaloo as described--refreshingly tangy rather than spicy, as a good goan-parsi vindaloo should be. my one reservation is about the name of the restaurant or to be more precise the spelling of it. granted both "parsi" and "parsee" are transliterations anyway but the latter spelling has particularly colonialist underpinnings (kind of like spelling gandhi as ghandi)--makes me wonder if the place is playing off of those kinds of associations in england. what is the general clientele-profile? my own english cousins (born and raised in the suburbs of london) tell me they're happy to be "cashing in" (as they put it) on indian-ness's raised hip profile in england these days; given that both their parents are excellent cooks, however, they're not very impressed by the high-profile indian restaurants.

i don't know about comrade majumdar's antecedents or the general phenomenon you cite but i do know he's responsible for at least one major "howler" on the india-forum; something that makes me question strongly his knowledge (attributed? claimed?) of bengali food.

i would say yes--and susruta*, who safely did on her recent trip to delhi, would probably agree however, the cautious are never proved wrong--if you don't eat there you won't know that you wouldn't have gotten sick; on the other hand if you do, you well might. if you want to go for it maybe do it on the last day (though if you have a bad experience it'll make for a fun flight home). *no, indians who now live abroad aren't any more immune to bugs than are foreigners visiting for the first time--i used to know a doctor in los angeles who said the most people he knew who got sick in india were expatriates who thought they had a lifetime pass against stomach problems, while foreigners were usually more restrained in their eating and did fine; this was proved correct on our trip this december when i spent more time in the toilet than did my wife.

i'm glad to hear it. one of my closest friends is the senior fiction editor at penguin and he worked with roy on the publication of the screenplay--he's the one who told me it was hard to find; roy and krishen have their own copy, of course, and he was trying to source it for me so i could copy it, but we ran out of time. did you ever see the duo's next film "electric moon"? that one may not have been available off the festival circuit. with the english sub-genres that are suddenly growing (another schoolmate who i haven't seen in years, kaizad gustad, is partly responsible) you'd think some of the pioneering 80s/early 90s efforts ('in which annie..." etc.) would enjoy a revival. and i agree in general with your evaluation of the comparative worth of her output. though her recent polemics don't put me off as much as they do some others, i do think "in which annie..." was her high-point.

aikiko, you're probably being wise. however, i'd hate to think that i convinced you not to walk delhi--at least it was not my intention to. i know lots of foreigners who walk delhi--especially parts of delhi the average south-delhi-ite wouldn't go to out of unfounded fear. this is all during the day, of course. trust me, if you go to chandni chowk during the day you'll be fine. but if you can get the driver to walk with you your peace of mind may increase. i wouldn't try to set up any pick-up/drop-off rendezvous in old delhi though. as monica noted, the crowds are amazing and it isn't always easy to find each other. you can't do delhi without a car though--it is too spread out, and not all parts of it have anything to see on foot. alas parathas should only be eaten at people's homes or at places like parathewali gali--5 star coffee-shops don't do a very good job with them (here finally bhelpuri and i may agree). and you won't find the penguin collection ("improbable city" or "city improbable" till you get to india). finally, here's my recommendation for 7 days (i'd somehow missed where you said it was a 7 day trip and that you'd mostly be alone) worth of (safe, healthy) eating in delhi. i make that 14 meals (breakfasts will be unexciting affairs): 1. bukhara (north-west cuisine)--maurya sheraton 2. dum pukht (awadhi cuisine)--maurya sheraton 3. masala art--taj palace (haven't been here myself but monica and bhasin recommend it 4. swaagath (multi-cuisine)--defence colony but order off the south indian non-veg menu 5. saravana bhavan (janpath off connaught place)--south-indian vegetarian, tamil-brahmin specifically 6. chopsticks (indian-chinese)-- asiad village complex 7. kandahar (also north-west cuisine)--at the oberoi (dinner only); not quite at bukhara level but they have some great stuff--especially their breads 8. the coconut grove (south indian non-veg)--hotel janpath; this is right next to your hotel; the hotel is a pretty seedy operation, go only at lunch-time. 9. bukhara again--to get things you couldn't the first time 10. ditto for dum pukht 11. and saravana bhavan 12. nathu's sweets (sweets, snacks and off-street street food)--bengali market;completely safe (even the gol-guppas are made with mineral water and dispensed by a man wearing a white glove); whatever the merits of the dhaba at claridge's may really be, serving street food is not one of them (in fact i'm surprised to hear it described as a place that serves street food--maybe their menu has changed drastically since my last visit many years ago). nathu's (or the more recent haldiram's) on the other hand... 13. dilli haat (the concierge will direct you): for food from all the states. as for woodlands, if this is an outpost of the chain from the south, go for it. that leaves 1 meal that you should ask locals about; ask the young post-college kids at the reception desk or the slightly older models in the imperial bar--make sure to tell them not to recommend only 5-star places. there was a time when the only decent places to eat in delhi (for the unadventurous) were in the 5-stars but this is no longer true. my friends (mostly the rich yuppies bhelpuri seems to think i invariably hate) now almost look down on the knee-jerk "let's go to a 5-star" attitude we had in college when we couldn't really afford to go to them. one of the places they might recommend might be chor bizarre--when i lived full-time in delhi it was a bit of a novelty, the food may finally have caught up (i haven't been there on my recent trips). of course, the food plan above makes no allowance for day-trips away to agra etc. for shopping, santushti is good and upmarket; don't fail also to spend a day walking through the state emporia on baba kharak singh marg (not far from the imperial)--in particular go to the rajasthan (rajasthali), gujarat (gurjari) and orissa (forget this one's name--utkalika?) emporia. also, take a look at the incredible patchwork wall-hangings etc. the gujjar (tribal) women sell on the streets near your hotel. much better and cheaper than the analogues in emporia--but i fear as a foreigner you won't get anything close to the price an indian might. re haggling: in general, in non-fixed price places--the emporia are all fixed-price-- figure out what you'd be happy to pay for things and try to get close to it; don't fret too much about being ripped off because you can't do anything about it. things will still seem very cheap to you. also fun is to have the driver take you for a jaunt to the furniture markets on panch-kuian marg. you won't buy anything but it will be a nice experience for you. have fun--when exactly do you leave? mongo

bhelpuri, get over it. i'm not quite the caricature you want me to be. and don't take things so personally. it is possible for us to disagree. if you read my post carefully you'll see i don't say that they shouldn't stay at the imperial--my scepticism is reserved more for a particular kind of fetishizing of the imperial and claridge's by a certain kind of delhi-ite. going to the dhaba to see a simulacrum of a dhaba when you can drive by lots of actual dhabas seems to me to be akin to going to las vegas to get a sense of what venice is like. it is a nice buzz for people who wouldn't actually ever eat at a real dhaba but like to get some of its flavor second-hand (and at claridge's re-filtered through a peculiar kind of raj nostalgia--peculiar not because it is raj nostalgia, but because it is manifested by indians). there's also a old-money/new-money dynamic at work. and this right here is a place we can agree to disagree. i have a different take on the mainstream indian-chinese you decry. perhaps because i was "bred" on it i haven't lost my taste for it despite having eaten more "authentically" chinese food in hong kong, singapore and the san gabriel valley near los angeles. can i ask which delhi chinese restaurants you've eaten at (outside the 5-stars) to arrive at this conclusion? and sleepydragon, "in which annie gives it those ones" is available on indiaclub.com; i should warn you that much of it may be incomprehensible to people who didn't have the westernized indian university experience--it mixes languages without any crutches for the non-enabled reader--but it is still a good read. the movie itself i remember through a nostalgic haze--it aired but once and doordarshan (the indian govt. broadcaster) lost/destroyed the original film. regards, mongo (edited a second time to merge two responses instead of creating a new one)

chopsticks is in the siri fort complex--the concierge can place you in a car that will go there; giving directions to places in delhi is a completely pointless exercise: if you don't know where you're going you won't get there. i should say that "chopsticks" is a place that i am nostalgic about from my college and post-college days. though given the crowd that was present when were there this december it probably is still a favored place on its own terms. i think bhelpuri also recommended going to the hauz khas village--go there but only for anthropological reasons (if you want to observe what happens when rich delhi socialites decide to exoticize other indians--during the day--or if you want to see rich delhi-ites at play--at night); do not eat there or shop there.

why would the nizamuddin karim's be okay but not the jama masjid? (i just realized i typed "nizam's" instead of "karim's" in an earlier post.) are you suggesting one is dirtier or less safe for foreigners? if you go during the day there's no question of danger for foreigners at either and as for the issue of cleanliness, well all i can say is that my wife, who is american, and who took not one shot before her first visit to india ate biryani and korma from the matka pir folks, who all but cook in a drain near pragati maidan, and she didn't have one contrary digestive episode. the key is to avoid raw things--especially fruits and salads--in uncontrolled environments. other than that don't assume that places that don't look like western restaurants are crawling with disease. being cautious is probably better than being reckless, but if you take your shots you have little to fear in terms of disease. as for getting a tummy upset--it will be hard to avoid this in the first few days even if you eat only at the 5-stars. my advice would be to take it easy the first few days--let your stomach adjust to the local bugs and then go for it. don't do what i do, which is go kabab-crazy upon arrival and then regret it for a week (not that these regrets ever extend to not eating more). but please if you want to get a very safe, representative taste of indian street food DO NOT go to the dhaba at claridge's; in fact don't go to claridge's at all. (claridge's itself, and all its restaurants, is a good example of a particular type of delhi classism at work, as is the imperial--but this may not be the place to get into it). instead, have the concierge put you in a cab to bengali market, there to eat at nathu's. you will not get sick there--guaranteed. also, get out of the hotel, turn left and walk down to the first major light; then cross the street towards cottage industries, and cross left again at the intersecting street. walk about 40 meters and look to your right--you'll see a restaurant called "saravana bhavan". go in, ask for a thali (bewarned, it will be crammed--when the food arrives you'll know why). i believe bhelpuri was referring to one of my posts here--if you re-read it you'll see that i was suggesting not that tea house or the other 5-star chineses actually offer "authentic" chinese food (whatever that is), but that they think they do. tell a chef there that you think their food is of the same genre (even if superior) as the average indian-chinese restaurant and he'll be outraged--i should know, a close friend of mine was a chef there in the early 90s. there is a significant menu difference between a tea house or house of ming and a place like chopsticks--the classic indian chinese menu of the 60s, 70s and 80s is on the way out as globalized yuppies invoke their own snobbish rhetoric of authenticity (see the overly hyped mainland china in calcutta). of course, what results from this rhetoric is also a variant of indian chinese, but it is a bit of a dhobi ka kutta ("a washerman's dog--neither of the home nor of the ghat"--a hindi idiom that doesn't really translate). by all means try both--you'll enjoy them. but do eat a few meals among regular delhi-ites (not just the ones who can afford 5-star restaurants). as for bookstores: the bookshop (that's its name) in khan market has gone downhill. it is not much more than a outlet for penguin india these days (not surprising given certain managerial connections). e.d galgotia's and the bookworm--both in connaught place--are what i'd recommend. i bought about 110 books on my trip this winter (an occupational hazard)--the owners (especially at the bookworm) are erudite, friendly and can locate any book they don't have in stock within 24 hours. as for specific books: i'd mentioned dalrymple earlier; he is good but if you buy only one i would still recommend the penguin book of writing on delhi (i forget the exact title now)--it is edited by khushwant singh and contains an excerpt from "city of djinns". however, it also contains a lot of other writing from excellent indian writers and not just with dalrymple's particular focus and may be interesting as such. if you want to get a flavor of what the delhi university scene used to be like (at least in the 70s and 80s) pick up a copy of arundhati roy's screenplay for "in which annie gives it those ones".

no, but i'm telling your relatives

spam rocks. 2 slices of white bread with a thick slice of spam between them, smeared with tabasco. now, that's heaven right there.

it has been a while but it is the scene where he's supposed to drive omprakash somewhere but can't get the car to start--he pops open the hood, and it is clear he has no idea what the hell is going on. however, being keshto he quickly takes a swig from a bottle, lets loose his trademark chuckle and informs omprakash that "iska to differential mein lafda hai". i have the dvd--i'll take a look and confirm. but the gobi ka phool question is a good one--i wonder if achaya or other experts on indian food have considered it . there's also the question of cabbage or "bandh-gobi" (or closed cauliflower); does cabbage in india need cauliflower to exist in order to have any meaning of its own?

http://www.tulleeho.com/tulleeho.htm it is actually run by people i knew well in my delhi university days--though i haven't spoken to them in more than a decade.

yes "angoor" is excellent as well if i'm remembering it correctly (that's the adaptation of shakespeare's : "the comedy of errors" right? with sanjeev kumar playing one set of twins?); "chashme buddoor" is another classic. but the mahabharata scene in "jaane bhi do yaaron" with satish shah's corpse as draupadi may be the single funniest moment in indian cinema (can't imagine such a thing being done in the political climate in india today). there's a lot of food and food references in that movie ("thoda khao, thoda phenko"). about hrishikesh mukherjee's current activities i know little (hope he's still alive). you identified the keshto poem in "chupke chupke" alright: "aaj baag mein khilenga ek gulaab jaise ke pilaye de, pilaye de..." which is where he gets stuck. and dharmendra's solution: "ek gilass julaab" and so we're back on topic. the one flaw in "chupke chupke" is that it inexplicably has gulzar doing the dialogues but the vastly inferior anand bakshi doing the lyrics.

chickenlady, thank you. i'm thinking crates though--since those'll be easier to fit into the trunk of a car come moving time; is a crate too shallow to be of use? the herbs i'm mostly interested in to begin with are a couple of varieties of basil, cilantro, italian parsley, mint and tarragon. i take it these would be highly container friendly. i am happy to plant some rosemary if only to thumb my nose at those greedy deer. i suppose another way to deer-proof might be to kill one of them and mount its head on a stake as a warning. mmm venison...actually, the herd in question was mostly born in our backyard years ago (as per our landlord and neighbours) and they know that they were here first. mmm lyme disease... now, what is a cooperative extension office? and how do i find one near me. and i may have asked this before but does your screen-name have a kids in the hall connection or are you just someone who likes poultry? regards, mongo

mmmm roscoe's chicken and waffles.....more things to miss about l.a. still don't know why chicken and waffles--but when things are good it is best not to ask questions.

suvir, all of this continues to whet my appetite. we hope to be there at the end of december/early jan. mongo

you've hit upon a bizarre thing that happens to certain asian cuisines when certain anglos--perhaps smarting under the "can't eat spicy" stereotype--happen upon them. look at what's happened to indian food in england. or the number of people who at indian restaurants in the u.s say things like "make it spicy, like you eat it"--even when the dish in question is not meant to be spicy (of course indian restaurants don't help clarify matters by making everything available mild, medium, spicy). that being said many indians, for example, do eat extremely spicy things--i've cited the example of my parents chomping raw, HOT, green chillies with their lunch with no visible effects. and from the little i ate in bangkok this winter i have no illusions that thai food needs no jazzing up to quickly become unfeasibly hot for me--the thai folks at the restaurants we were at seemed to be having no such issues. so palates do also differ.

quick and probably foolish question: why would containers be a bigger question-mark than outdoor planting in cold-winter climate places (as opposed to california)? wouldn't fixed plants be more consistently exposed to cold than plants in containers which can be moved? anyone have luck with herbs in larger containers in cold places?

hey fred, sounds good--i'm going to have to get tips from you at the denver egullet dinner in a few weeks. mongo

pedro, i don't believe there's any copyright issues involved if you merely paraphrase or summarize the article for us in english. mongo

even almighty google fails us when it comes to "kandhamul"; however, "kandamul" shows up on a few pages--mostly in reference to jainism, as a class of underground/tuber vegetables: "Anantakaya vegetables that grow underground". if it is a jain thing that might explain why it is a rare snack in bombay. this might also mean that asking a hardcore jain might be the way to go. though as i think about it jains don't eat root vegetables--so asking a hardcore jain may not be the way to go. ignore everything i've said. carry on.

people, forgive me if i'm just starting over here (19 pages is a lot to read--i made it till the third page of the thread): i want to begin a herb garden--however it can't be in the backyard proper since we have deer constantly in there and they will eat anything that grows. also, we are renting and a) i don't want to invest in fences etc. in someone else's house and b) i'd like to take my herb garden with me when we buy our own house (in a year or three). thus i am thinking of crates which i imagine can be deer-proofed a little easier/cheaper. my questions are the following: 1. how easy/feasible is it to grow herbs in pots/crates? can you grow anything else in them? 2. we live in colorado (boulder)--what herbs are feasible in this climate? (early spring this year.) 3. how/where do i begin? thanks in advance! mongo

could someone please translate/paraphrase for the spanish-challenged?

Fantastic breads and dahl here as well. But can someone explain those horrible stools and tables to me? yes, the dal bukhara is one of those rare things that has been hyped beyond belief but still lives up to it. a great deal of evil pleasure can be got, by the way, by going to dum pukht and asking them if they can get dal for your meal from the bukhara kitchen. i don't know what the situation is now but there was a time when the kitchens were in big competition and the dum pukht'ers chafed against bukhara's hegemony in the local imagination. i did this once (on a friend's recommendation) and had the manager go off very emotionally for about 5 minutes about how he would do it if i really wanted to but it was such a huge mistake i'd be making etc.