Bocca

[rich]

This was so good, it could be the second best "real" NYC Italian after Parkside. Bocca is located on Hylan Blvd., Staten Island. It just underwent a $1 million renovation and inventory update and it re-opened about 2 months ago. I went Tuesday for the first time. I had eaten in the place once before and it was just okay (about 18 months ago).

The wine list is probably the best in New York City, and possibly the best in the country after Bern's. The emphasis is on American and Italian, though they have some excellent French choices, including most of the first-growths. If it's lacking something - it's the the Red Burgundy area - just a few listed.

Several cult wines on the list as well - $1800 for Screaming Eagle, but most of the Harlans were in the $200-300 range - very reasonable for those.

The food was bordering on outstanding. We started by sharing Gnocchi Bolognese. The gnocchi was silky and the Bolognese sauce was rich, but not overly filling.

My wife had crab cakes with a lemon sauce. The crabs were moist, fresh and the coating was a light bread crumb, lemon zest that wasn't oily. I had a grilled whole grouper that was skinned and de-boned at the table. It was served with a lemon-oil sauce. The fish was cooked perfectly and the vegetables (masked potatoes and roasted broccoli) were prepared properly.

I ordered a 1995 Cain Five from Napa and at $55 it was a bargain (released at $30-35). The wine was decanted and served in large-bowl light stemware.

The restaurant looks great. Downstairs in for smoking and upstairs for non-smoking. One large upstairs wall is a wine cellar with temperture contolled units built into the wall.

This place is worth the trip to Staten Island. It's a world-class restaurant. And I never thought that was possible on the Island.

[LaNiña]

Have you been to Manducatis, and if so, can you compare the wine lists (and other things)?

[rich]

Have you been to Manducatis,  and if so, can you compare the wine lists (and other things)?

Hi Nina - Yes, I've been to Manducati's (Long Island City). It my opinion, they're not in the same league. The wine lists are worlds apart. Manducati's has a very good Italian list, but not much else.

Manducati's food is good, but more Italian-American. This is more authentic Italian, or at least as close as it gets in America.

As far as atmosphere and service - Manducati's is fine, Bocca is top flight.

Nina - why don't you come to Staten Island - you enjoy going to all the boroughs. If you get here - my treat.

[LaNiña]

Very sweet, Rich. I just might take you up on it. Will you provide round trip transportation to and from Brooklyn?

As for authentic Italian, have you eaten at Lupa or Babbo?

[rich]

Very sweet, Rich.  I just might take you up on it.  Will you provide round trip transportation to and from Brooklyn? 

As for authentic Italian, have you eaten at Lupa or Babbo?

Haven't tried Lupa, but have been to Babbo. It's fine, but I think it leans toward the Italian-American end of things - similar to Felidia or Po when Mario owned it.

Transportation - I have a little two-seater and the top is always down. If you have no problem with wind in your hair, then I'll provide the transportation. Gee... I hope it's not raining that day.

[Robert Schonfeld]

You got my attention, Rich. We will definitely visit soon.

Please tell us about Bern's and Parkside.

[Robert Nesta Marley]

rich,

can you recall the vintages of the listed harlans?? 1994 by chance?? $200 to $300 is a steal in a restaurant!!! (not that i could go now and pay for one, but just to keep it on file; you never know.)

happy with the '95 cain 5?

[LaNiña]

Very sweet, Rich.  I just might take you up on it.  Will you provide round trip transportation to and from Brooklyn?  

As for authentic Italian, have you eaten at Lupa or Babbo?

Haven't tried Lupa, but have been to Babbo. It's fine, but I think it leans toward the Italian-American end of things - similar to Felidia or Po when Mario owned it.

Rich, forgive me, but that is patently untrue. Both Babbo and Lupa pride themselves on being decidedly NOT "Italian-American," and succeed.

[LaNiña]

You got my attention, Rich. We will definitely visit soon.

Please tell us about Bern's and Parkside.

Robert, I haven't been to Parkside, but many people swear by it. Our own Plotnicki doesn't like it, and there are conflicting opinions about it from lots of different people. I'm eager to try it, and Manducatis, too. FG has much to say about Manducatis - perhaps he'll chime in, about the food and the wine list there.

[rich]

Nina - I guess I just compare Italian resturants to my mom's and grandmother's cooking. Maybe I shouldn't review Italian restaurants in general groups because I'm very hard on them when it comes to their "authentic Italian" claims. Just my background, I guess. So, are you coming to Staten Island?

Robert - Parkside is in Corona, Queens (just down the block from the Corona Ice King). In my opinion, it's the best authentic Italian in the city. The ingredients are as close to home as I remember.

I know Steve P doesn't agree with me and he likes Don Pepe, but they use butter in their tomato sauce, which would be heresy in my family. Again, I guess it's just what you've grown up with.

Bern's in Tampa, Florida is a Steak House. It has the most comprehensive wine list in the world. If you have never been there it's a total dining experience and I urge you to try it. The vegetables are home grown, the cattle is raised on the family's farm and the fish is fresh in large tanks in the kitchen - all the fish. There is a special dessert room upstairs where guests sit in private "wine barrells." It's worth the airfare.

Nesita - I think the Harlans were 1995, 96, 97, 98. I'll call and confirm later.

[southern girl]

I agree with Rich...Bern's is definitely a place that should be given a try. The staff has to work at the Farm before they get to work in the restaurant. Their version of an apprenticeship. Also...you have to ask your waiter for a tour of their wine cellar...it is unbelievable as is the wine list which is at least as large as the NYC phone book. The dessert room is fun and funky...great bananas foster...and of course...the STEAKS...perfection ...IMO none better anywhere.

[rich]

STEAKS...perfection ...IMO none better anywhere.

I'll take it step further - the country's best overall restaurant, just my opinion. I fly down at least twice a year to eat there.

[rich]

happy with the '95 cain 5?

Extremely happy. Cain is one of the California producers that are food friendly. This bottle had 23% Franc and lesser amounts of three other grapes (CS was the dominate one).

It was full, hint of tobacco and an extremely long finish. Outstanding wine. And since it was from a drought year, very intense.

[LaNiña]

Staten Island, here I come...

pnarena (new member here) and I went to a good place in Williamsburg a couple of months ago...Cono & Son O'pescatore - nice wine list, good food - and there's one night a week (maybe Thursdays?) where all Italian wines are half price - some seriously good bargains to be had...worth a visit.

[SobaAddict70]

Call me a snob...but I find it difficult to believe that an "authentic Italian" place would serve...

mashed potatoes

crab cakes with lemon sauce

or roasted broccoli

not to mention American and French wine as drinking choices

Yes, there is an "authentic Italian" equivalent of mashed potatoes -- basically potatoes cooked in milk and butter, with a touch of cream. But its not called mashed potatoes. (I don't remember what its called, have to look it up when I get home.)

Gnocchi bolognese sounds more to me like a dish that has Italian ROOTS (marinara sauce, anyone?) but Americanized or revised to a more modern set of palates. I find it difficult to understand how potato pasta could be paired with a heavy meat-based sauce (an unlikely pairing at the least) and still be called "authentic Italian".

Try eating at Babbo next time, I dare you. Babbo routinely serves testa, tripe and other things that I never seem to find at "authentic Italian" places.

SA

[rich]

Call me a snob...but I find it difficult to believe that an "authentic Italian" place would serve...

mashed potatoes

crab cakes with lemon sauce

or roasted broccoli

not to mention American and French wine as drinking choices

My mother and grandmother made all three. The potatoes were made with heavy cream, garlic, Italian parsley and butter. She roasted the broccoli with garlic and oregano. She made crab cakes with bread crumbs mixed with fresh garden herbs and the Italians use lemon sauce on many dishes. At least my relatives in Naples and Sicily do.

The first time I visited my realtives in Italy, they served gnocchi with a Bolognese (actually tasted similar to Bacco's) - if it's made properly, it's not heavy or overbearing at all.

As far as wine, the Italians realize other places make wine. In fact, American wine sells quite well in Italy.

I have eaten at Babbo (without anyone daring me) and their tripe isn't nearly as good as my mom's. In fact, their version is totally Americanized in my opinion. Bacco's had tripe as an off-menu special that night - I choose not to order it.

[Robert Schonfeld]

As Rich says, his view of what is authentic is influenced by his family experience, making it more likely that he is talking about "authentic Italian-American" than authentic Italian, a category that exists only barely in New York.

Mazal and I went to Manducati's once. The wine list is impressive. The food is not. Enough said.

[LaNiña]

Rich, all this talk about your own family's cooking is, in my opinion, irrelevant to the discussion of Italian restaurants. Just because a particular person cooked a dish, doesn't make it "authentic," and certainly not necessarily typical, even if the person was born and/or raised somewhere. And with all due respect, the fact that you happen to like your grandmother's tripe better than Mario's isn't that interesting an addition to the discussion.

There is lots of "authentic" Italian cooking - and it's also open to plenty of interpretation, regional differences, etc. Realizing that opinion is subjective, I might point out that Batali's food is widely held to be as close to "authentic" Italian cooking as we have in this country in a restaurant setting. Parkside may be good, but it's red sauce Italian, for better or worse. And to decide that this place on Staten Island is as authentic Italian as it gets, based on dishes that your family may have made, seems silly to me. You didn't even try "typically authentic" Italian food there to any extent. How can you then compare it to a place like Babbo, when your experience of the menu in Staten Island was so limited?

[SobaAddict70]

Thank you, Nina and Robert.

SA

[rich]

Nina - I agree with you. That's why I said I shouldn't review Italian restaurants. And I agree about your Bacco stance with so limited a sampling. But the three dishes were closer to what I consider "authentic," then most others I've tasted. I'll try more and hopefully you can be there.

However, Mario Batali's places don't come up to authentic for me. Again, just an opinion. I think they're fine restaurants and I think he's a great chef - I thought Po was excellent and his best - but the word authentic bothers me.

Robert - you may be right about that, but when I visited relatives in Italy, the cooking wasn't much different. Naturally, local ingredients make a difference, but the style was close.

[LaNiña]

So Rich, if Mario's food isn't "authentic," what isn't "authentic" about it? Define your terms.

[rich]

So Rich, if Mario's food isn't "authentic," what isn't "authentic" about it?  Define your terms.

I knew I shouldn't have posted this topic. I would only get myself in trouble.

Okay, I'll try to answer that, but remember it's an opinion based on growing up with an Italian Grandmother who lived in Italy until she was 28.

Athentic to me is a style of cooking. Nothing tastes like Italian "gravy" except for a brew that has been slow cooking for eight hours. The melding of the flavors takes that long.

When cooking meats and fish, the use of fresh herbs and olive oils in essential - garlic is used in most everything.

The cheeses should be fresh and freshly grated and the dried sausages should all be made with red wine.

Fish is mostly broiled or grilled - rarely cooked on a stove top and always served with EVOO and lemon.

If you ask two things most Italian restaurants do that I don't enjoy (including Mario) it's the tomato sauce (gravy), which always tastes undercooked and underspiced. The second is fish - most of the time filet is used. In my experience (again my family) this was very rare. Most fish was served whole and the eyes (as with a lamb) were served to the guest of honor.

As far as other non-tomato based sauces, I think the Italian restaurants do two things that were not common in my household (both here and Italy). The sauces tend to be too thick and too much is used. Sometimes it appears its trying to hide the natural taste of the food and herbs.

Please, don't yell at me. These are just opinions and it's quite likely my family wasn't deft about cooking - it's just what they did. I think I'm going to the Olive Garden tonight.

[Robert Schonfeld]

A famous Italian chef working successfully in America once said to me, "We are about 80% authentic." No further comment necessary.

[rich]

A famous Italian chef working successfully in America once said to me, "We are about 80% authentic." No further comment necessary.

I wish I was 80% authentic, that would be an improvemnet of about 78%.

[LaNiña]

Rich, I don't mean to be mean, but I just looked through the entire Babbo menu (where I also ate recently), and the ONLY dish that would qualify as having a tomato sauce is Pappardelle Bolognese. So what Mario tomato sauce ("gravy") are you criticizing?

And do you know about the sausages he carries? I won't go into detail, but suffice it to say that his father undertook a multi-year course of study and experiential learning in Italy before opening his own sausage-making business, which is the supplier for the restaurants.

I believe his cooking meets all of your "authenticity" criteria, so I'm having trouble understanding what you mean.

Read the article in the new New Yorker. And try Babbo again with an open mind.