Paul Liebrandt

[Lateralus]

This is a new forum for Paul.

[alanamoana]

so what's the scoop with the starchefs culinary conference in september? you're listed as doing a demo as chef of "the restaurant to be left unnamed"...are you still doing a demo?

[Lateralus]

We are still doing a demo, and currently looking at options for servicing the dinner as well. We will keep everyone posted.

[NaFairge]

paul (tom, scott, asbel, boys)......

best of luck. broke my heart to hear it.

he who dares, wins. don't forget, governor.

[BryanZ]

So what's next? Hopefully another venture in NYC?

[tan319]

We are still doing a demo, and currently looking at options for servicing the dinner as well.  We will keep everyone posted.

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Hoping you folks get to do a dinner at the ICC!

[oakapple]

Given the fate of Atlas, Papillon, and now Gilt, I would suggest that the next move should be at a much lower price point, in a neighborhood like the Lower East Side that is more congenial to that type of experimentation.

[tan319]

Question, especially after the NYTimes euology/thoughts on GILT...

Was it REALLY that radical?

And i don't mean that in a bad way, simply that by Liebrandts own admission he was toning it down and he was running a modern and classical sided menu.

But since this isn't really about the former place, I give a vote to upper downtown, Flatiron etc.

[docsconz]

Anywhere but the meat-packing district.

[twodogs]

What is the direction of this thread?...

[Sethro]

Question, especially after the NYTimes euology/thoughts on GILT...

Was it REALLY that radical?

No.

It was probably just radically incongruent with the location, and all that it carried with it (jacket required, high price point, etc)

[docsconz]

What is the direction of this thread?...

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The next steps for Chef Liebrandt and crew.

[BryanZ]

Which unfortunately remain unanswered.

[Bueno]

What is the direction of this thread?...

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Self-promotion, clearly.

[oakapple]

Question, especially after the NYTimes euology/thoughts on GILT...

Was it REALLY that radical?

And i don't mean that in a bad way, simply  that by Liebrandts own admission he was toning it down and he was running a modern and classical sided menu.

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On the whole, I would certainly not call Liebrandt's Gilt menu "classical." It was not as far-out as El Bulli or Alinea, but it wasn't as mainstream as Jean Georges or Daniel. By NYC standards, it was more like WD-50 than anything else. But frankly, because it was more experimental, I thought there were several "misses" on the tasting menu I tried, and at those prices one is far less likely to forgive the missteps.

[Fat Guy]

Given the fate of Atlas, Papillon, and now Gilt, I would suggest that the next move should be at a much lower price point, in a neighborhood like the Lower East Side that is more congenial to that type of experimentation.

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Papillon probably had as or nearly as low a price point you can have for labor-intensive, creative cuisine in a Manhattan location, and while not in the East Village it was down on Hudson St. around 11th.

I think the more fundamental issue is that New York just isn't ready to support avant-garde cuisine in a serious way. Maybe New Yorkers would support it if the economics of Chicago were transplanted into a New York neighborhood, or maybe not even then, but for whatever reason the only place that has had any staying power here has been WD-50 and WD-50 is pretty well towards the tame end of the avant-garde spectrum. Assuming Oakapple has the cuisine pegged (I imagine he does, though I never made it to Gilt), I really doubt the Gilt-Paul experiment would have turned out differently if there had been fewer misses on the tasting menu. I was recently at a panel discussion about avant-garde cuisine and tableware, hosted by the Cooper-Hewitt (the design collection of the Smithsonian, in Manhattan), and I don't think it was lost on anyone there that the panel consisted of all chefs from Chicago and DC -- there was no New York representation, even though the venue was in New York. Wylie, Paul and maybe Will Goldfarb could potentially sit on such a panel and not be totally out of place, but I think if you step back from any sort of geographic loyalty it's hard to justify putting any of those guys on the list ahead of Achatz, Cantu and Andres (and that's not even bringing Adria, Blumenthal, This, et al. into the discussion).

[reachej]

Maybe New Yorkers would support it if the economics of Chicago were transplanted into a New York neighborhood

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Could you elaborate on this?

[Fat Guy]

Without having seen the financials I can only guess, but I imagine that if you were to open Alinea in Manhattan -- with Manhattan rent, wages and other operating costs -- you'd have to charge a lot more money for dinner than Alinea does in a residential Chicago neighborhood. There are no equivalent neighborhoods in Manhattan -- you'd probably have to look in Brooklyn to find something similar, but because New York isn't so much of a suburban/car culture even the best restaurants in Brooklyn don't draw Manhattan guests in sufficient numbers, and since Manhattan is also the gateway to all the tourist business in New York, and since tourists rarely leave Manhattan, that business just isn't there in Brooklyn. The only possible exception I can think of is Peter Luger, though I'm not really sure what percentage of the customers on any given night are in from Manhattan.

Anyway, the point being . . . maybe New York customers (in sufficient numbers to support a restaurant) would pay the cost of dinner at Alinea-in-Chicago to have an Alinea-quality meal in New York. But would they pay the cost of dinner at Ducasse to have that meal? I don't really know the answer to either hypothetical, though I imagine it goes yes and no.

[Nathan]

good point on the economics of chicago vis a vis NY.

however, I would note that, in my view, Wylie is actually more avant garde than Achatz when it comes to cuisine....at least based on my recent meal at Alinea. (tableware is another matter altogether)

[docsconz]

This topic is moving into an interesting tangent, but tangent it is. To continue discussion of this please go to this topic.

Please reserve the current topic for discussion of the work/plans of Chef Paul Liebrandt.

[Nica]

Just a quick update I received from Liebrandt regarding possibility of Philly move:

"Don't worry! I am looking for spaces in nyc for my own

I will be in touch!

Paul

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile "

I'll keep everyone posted on any further info!

[docsconz]

Just a quick update I received from Liebrandt regarding possibility of Philly move:

"Don't worry! I am looking for spaces in nyc for my own

I will be in touch!

Paul

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile "

I'll keep everyone posted on any further info!

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Paul is doing consulting work for Stephen Starr. Starr is still looking for an executive chef for The Striped Bass.

[LPShanet]

Given the fate of Atlas, Papillon, and now Gilt, I would suggest that the next move should be at a much lower price point, in a neighborhood like the Lower East Side that is more congenial to that type of experimentation.

←

Papillon probably had as or nearly as low a price point you can have for labor-intensive, creative cuisine in a Manhattan location, and while not in the East Village it was down on Hudson St. around 11th.

I think the more fundamental issue is that New York just isn't ready to support avant-garde cuisine in a serious way. Maybe New Yorkers would support it if the economics of Chicago were transplanted into a New York neighborhood, or maybe not even then, but for whatever reason the only place that has had any staying power here has been WD-50 and WD-50 is pretty well towards the tame end of the avant-garde spectrum. Assuming Oakapple has the cuisine pegged (I imagine he does, though I never made it to Gilt), I really doubt the Gilt-Paul experiment would have turned out differently if there had been fewer misses on the tasting menu. I was recently at a panel discussion about avant-garde cuisine and tableware, hosted by the Cooper-Hewitt (the design collection of the Smithsonian, in Manhattan), and I don't think it was lost on anyone there that the panel consisted of all chefs from Chicago and DC -- there was no New York representation, even though the venue was in New York. Wylie, Paul and maybe Will Goldfarb could potentially sit on such a panel and not be totally out of place, but I think if you step back from any sort of geographic loyalty it's hard to justify putting any of those guys on the list ahead of Achatz, Cantu and Andres (and that's not even bringing Adria, Blumenthal, This, et al. into the discussion).

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For the most part, I agree with Fat Guy (as I almost always seem to do), however, there was a much bigger issue with Papillon, which might otherwise have had the formula needed: Awareness. Almost none of my foodie friends were aware that it even existed, let alone that Paul was cooking there. There was essentially no press done around it or him at the time. Personally, if it were anything like the food I've had during his stints at Atlas and Gilt (but at a lower price point), I would have been there with great regularity.

It may be true that New York isn't ready to fully support avante garde cuisine (although I am still far from convinced), but I don't think we've properly tested the theorem yet. Certainly, though, the economic concerns are an issue, which may be why none of the world's pre-eminent avante garde restaurants are in the middle of the country's most major cities (apologies to Chicago, but there's a reason that they're called "Second City"...and that's generous). Witness, El Bulli, Fat Duck, etc.

Personally, my experiences at Gilt found the food to be exceptional (though I may have had two better nights than others) and very creative. I think his custom tasting menus were more adventurous than the regular ones, since the hotel was trying to rein him in.

I also have a hunch that there isn't a huge gap in the avante-garde aspect between what Wylie does and what Achatz is doing at Alinea, and any of the others in DC are doing. It's true that the presentations are often unusual and creative, but tableware doesn't equal creativity. In terms of the science behind the cooking, I'd say they're all at least comparable.

[tan319]

Liebrandts website has been updated with some newer pics of the Food he was doing at GILT ( maybe some things from the 'BUTTER' ICC dinner?) as well as a lot of quite decent media ( on quick glance) from Wine Spectator, a very cool Asian mag, and a few other things I hadn't seen.

Very Good, Sir! http://www.paulliebrandt.com/

Edited October 3, 2006 by tan319 (log)

[tan319]

Speaking of the ICC Liebrandt demo, does anyone know where Jordan Kahn is pastry chef?

Thanks in advance!

ICC thread on eG