Palm (One) - the Original

[jgould]

going to palm one tonite specifically for their ny strip which is the only "chain" restaurant to serve real honest-to-goodness dry-aged, USDA-Prime ny strips. all the other "chain steakhouses here & all over the country only serve wet-aged!!! & in many cases serve "prime" WHICH DOES NOT = USDA PRIME!!!!

away from the "chains", only PL's & BLT Steak & Prime, i believe, serve dry-aged, USDA-Prime meat within nyc.

away from ny, bern's is the only well-known other steakhouse serving dry-aged, USDA-Prime!!!

would think gallagher's would as per their infamous window of hanging steaks.

[Holly Moore]

I missed the Wall Street Journal article on steak houses, but did it specifically state that the top chain steak houses were serving non-prime beef but justified calling it prime because they omitted the USDA designation?

[JohnL]

I haven't been to the Palm in years (I used to eat regularly at Palm Too across the Avenue).

I remember a pretty good level of consistancy in the quality of the meat.

I too noticed the Gallagher's omission and wondered the same thing--those sides hangin in the window sure look dry aged to me!

[R Washburn]

I missed the Wall Street Journal article on steak houses, but did it specifically state that the top chain steak houses were serving non-prime beef but justified calling it prime because they omitted the USDA designation?

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I think they were referring to steakhouses serving wet-aged prime. Holly, do the Philadelphia locations of the big chain steakhouses (Palm, Smith and Wollensky's, Ruth Chris, and Morton's) serve wet-aged prime? Or is it non-USDA graded wet-aged beef?

[Holly Moore]

I posted on the original thread that I both phoned and visited the Philadelphia Palm on the dry aged issue. They're stonewalling. I'll keep after them.

I understand that aging can refer to either dry or wet aged if a place chooses not to be specific. But I would be surprised if, as the original post in this thread states, that a top chain steakhouse could call its steaks "prime" if they are not, indeed, "USDA Prime." That's what I was asking here.

[juuceman]

I posted on the original thread that I both phoned and visited the Philadelphia Palm on the dry aged issue.  They're stonewalling.  I'll keep after them.

I understand that aging can refer to either dry or wet aged if a place chooses not to be specific.  But I would be surprised if, as the original post in this thread states, that a top chain steakhouse could call its steaks "prime" if they are not, indeed, "USDA Prime."  That's what I was asking here.

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i don't think you can use the Prime designation unless it's USDA Prime.. see http://www.reluctantgourmet.com/highland_steaks.htm, about halfway down for some support forthis..

see also: http://meat.tamu.edu/history.html but there isn't a definitive answer that i can some up with..

Edited October 17, 2005 by juuceman (log)

[jgould]

I missed the Wall Street Journal article on steak houses, but did it specifically state that the top chain steak houses were serving non-prime beef but justified calling it prime because they omitted the USDA designation?

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your Q has subtlies that are hard to answer. the article did provide a chart, etc..

Edited October 17, 2005 by jgould (log)

[jgould]

I missed the Wall Street Journal article on steak houses, but did it specifically state that the top chain steak houses were serving non-prime beef but justified calling it prime because they omitted the USDA designation?

←

I think they were referring to steakhouses serving wet-aged prime. Holly, do the Philadelphia locations of the big chain steakhouses (Palm, Smith and Wollensky's, Ruth Chris, and Morton's) serve wet-aged prime? Or is it non-USDA graded wet-aged beef?

←

no, they were referring to the national chains, of which all, BUT the orginal Palm serve wet-aged steaks & even @ the palm there are nuances.

[jgould]

I posted on the original thread that I both phoned and visited the Philadelphia Palm on the dry aged issue.  They're stonewalling.  I'll keep after them.

I understand that aging can refer to either dry or wet aged if a place chooses not to be specific.  But I would be surprised if, as the original post in this thread states, that a top chain steakhouse could call its steaks "prime" if they are not, indeed, "USDA Prime."  That's what I was asking here.

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i did the leg work, but feel free to follow-up. obviously if a place chooses not to specify, then the assumption, by definition, is their steaks are either dry or wet-aged - is there any other way??????

but, that is a oxymoron. any steakhouse serving dry-aged steaks would proudly specify!

& yes virginia, u are going to be surprised. a top chain steakhouse could & does call their steaks prime, which is legal. it means nothing. to mean something, it must be "USDA - PRIME PERIOD - END-of-STORY.

[jgould]

I posted on the original thread that I both phoned and visited the Philadelphia Palm on the dry aged issue.  They're stonewalling.  I'll keep after them.

I understand that aging can refer to either dry or wet aged if a place chooses not to be specific.  But I would be surprised if, as the original post in this thread states, that a top chain steakhouse could call its steaks "prime" if they are not, indeed, "USDA Prime."  That's what I was asking here.

←

i don't think you can use the Prime designation unless it's USDA Prime.. see http://www.reluctantgourmet.com/highland_steaks.htm, about halfway down for some support forthis..

see also: http://meat.tamu.edu/history.html but there isn't a definitive answer that i can some up with..

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there IS a definitive answer, & not that hard to get, IF u ask the right people the right questions.

holly, there ARE stonewalling. whoever u have asked does NOT want to answer u because they know the answer & it will not be what u expect. if its 1 of the nationals, they are serving wet-aged steaks, & may or may not be USDA PRIME. quite frankly, as the article did point out, most, if not all, filet mignons are NOT USDA PRIME!!!

the philly palm ONLY serves wet-aged PERIOD

as to USDA PRIME - vs. - the non-meaning prime, good luck in arriving at the answer to your inquiry.

Edited October 17, 2005 by jgould (log)

[9lives]

According to the WSJ article, the Palm wet ages at all but 1 store in NYC. I'm guessing that all the NYC Palms serve the same steak..Every Palm outside NYC wet ages.

According the the article, Smith and Wollensky dry ages USDA prime beef at all locations.

A few midwest steakhouses use the word "prime" to describe the meat as superb, premium,great, etc..but serve USDA Choice steaks..1 cut on the menu is USDA prime.

Capital Grille ages both wet and dry...and sells prime and choice...so I guess you need to request a dry aged prime; if that's what you want.

Morton's, Ruth's Chris and Flemings?? serve wet aged prime.

[jgould]

According to the WSJ article, the Palm wet ages at all but 1 store in NYC. I'm guessing that all the NYC Palms serve the same steak..Every Palm outside NYC wet ages.

According the the article, Smith and Wollensky  dry ages USDA prime beef at all locations.

A few midwest steakhouses use the word "prime" to describe the meat as superb, premium,great, etc..but serve USDA Choice steaks..1 cut on the menu is USDA prime.

Capital Grille ages both wet and dry...and sells prime and choice...so I guess you need to request a dry aged prime; if that's what you want.

Morton's, Ruth's Chris and Flemings?? serve wet aged prime.

←

thx for the correction & good catch re: S&W serves dry-aged USDA-PRIME.

so, are we to assume S&W's serves dry-aged, USDA PRIME in all their 11 locations?

if so, this is quite a statement, as well as being surprised S&W was not singled out for their adherence to quality (only USDA-Prime) & excellence re: their dry-aging, apparently a very unique oddity, in a good way!!

something doesn't sound right for S&W NOT to be highlighted??!!

their web site explicitly states they serve only dry-aged USDA-PRIME. i assume they would not false advertise; therefore, to my way of thinking, S&W must be considered the premier steakhouse chain in the country.

curious what others have experienced? the last time i ate @the nyc S&W, had the ribeye, nothing particularly special or i would have returned. on the other hand, its hard to criticize, & not just simply fully appreciate, knowing the care & pride they take in what they do.

maybe i should change reservations?? i "thought" i was going to experiment @ the "only MANHATTAN steakhouse that served a dry-aged USDA-PRIME NY Strip!

Edited October 17, 2005 by jgould (log)

[9lives]

The article certainly indicates that S & W dry ages prime beef at all locations...but I've never thought of it as a "top steakhouse;" nor do I think most people do. Kind of the next tier down. Maybe they are buying the "bottom end" of prime. I'd stick to the Palm.

I'm in Boston and they just opened an S & W..good steak, but not on a par with some others in town...great space though and worth stopping in for a drink.

One thing that confused me a little..dealing with aging of filet mignon. I was in the local Whole Foods today and they have an aging case..beef aged 21 days. Most of the meat was porterhouse...few ribroasts.. in the case..but on the "ready to sell shelf," it was more aged NY strip, filets, and ribeyes..few butchered into porterhouses.

The article also says that filet mignon is almost never USDA prime..but aren't ratings based on the beef carcass? not the cut? Seems a USDA prime strip would be 1 bone away from a USDA prime filet. Just curious, I rarely order a filet.

******

answering my own question..The filet must be in such demand, that in order to meat it , restauranteurs that serve prime strip might need to buy choice filet..and the lack of marbling would make the difference negligible..although the filet portion of a Peter Luger porterhouse tastes better than other filets I've sampled.

Edited October 17, 2005 by 9lives (log)

[oakapple]

maybe i should change reservations??  i "thought" i was going to experiment @ the "only MANHATTAN steakhouse that served a dry-aged USDA-PRIME NY Strip!

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Most of this conversation (and the WSJ article) is about national chains. Manhattan has quite a few excellent steakhouses that are not national chains. I would be very surprised if the Palm is the only Manhattan steakhouse that serves dry-aged USDA Prime steaks. The original claim was that Palm is the only chain to do so, and even that appears to be inaccurate (see earlier comments about S&W and Capital Grille).

I would add that there are many factors that contribute to a great steakhouse meal, of which the USDA grade of the meat, and the type and duration of aging, are only a part.

[9lives]

Good point...pretty sure Sparks dry ages their prime beef...as well as many other independents.

The real surprise on the WSJ list for me was Capital Grille...where I've had some great steaks; though not recently. The Boston location has a big aging locker in the doorway...and is priced as if the steaks are prime...so it's a little disturbing that they both wet age and dry age..and offer both choice and prime. They are part of Rare Hospitality...which also owns Longhorn and Bugaboo Creek.

I've excellent steaks at Morton's, Palm, Ruth's Chris...mediocre at Flemings (don't believe it was prime) and mediocre at Shula's.

[jgould]

the dry-aged usda-prime ny strip @ palm one last night was sublime, as was the fried onions & creamed spinach (the best). the "monday night" salad was not as good as it once was, & @ $9 is a minor irritation, the key lime pie that my friend had looked good, but i could not eat another thing.

i have not been to smith & wollensky's in a long time, who also serves dry-aged usda prime, but my friend has, & he assured me if we thought the palm was loud, it pales by comparison to the loudness @ S&W which, according to him, makes that experience somewhat less enjoyable. so, the net-net is, very good steak, but also loud, but less so than others. hard to beat the palm's ambiance which adds to the meal.

Edited October 18, 2005 by jgould (log)

[9lives]

glad you enjoyed it!

[oakapple]

i have not been to smith & wollensky's in a long time, who also serves dry-aged usda prime, but my friend has, & he assured me if we thought the palm was loud, it pales by comparison to the loudness @ S&W which, according to him, makes that experience somewhat less enjoyable. so, the net-net is, very good steak, but also loud, but less so than others. hard to beat the palm's ambiance which adds to the meal.

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I think this emphasis on USDA grade and aging method vastly over-simplifies what goes into making a great steak.

[jgould]

i have not been to smith & wollensky's in a long time, who also serves dry-aged usda prime, but my friend has, & he assured me if we thought the palm was loud, it pales by comparison to the loudness @ S&W which, according to him, makes that experience somewhat less enjoyable. so, the net-net is, very good steak, but also loud, but less so than others. hard to beat the palm's ambiance which adds to the meal.

←

I think this emphasis on USDA grade and aging method vastly over-simplifies what goes into making a great steak.

←

with ALL due respect, seriously! & hopefully, i won't receive a host's reprimand; BUT that may be the most ridiculous statement i have ever heard! & not warranting an explanation, other than for u to re-read, buy a wet-aged, "prime"-only strip, & grill, then revisit or visit palm one, order their dry-aged, USDA PRIME NY Strip the same way u grilled your NY Strip, no condiments, & compare; then re-visit the statement above. s'il vous plaît

Edited October 18, 2005 by jgould (log)

[R Washburn]

loud, but less so than others. hard to beat the palm's ambiance which adds to the meal.

with ALL due respect, seriously! & hopefully, i won't receive a host's reprimand; BUT that may be the most ridiculous statement i have ever heard! & not warranting an explanation, other than for u to re-read, buy a wet-aged, "prime"-only strip, & grill, then revisit or visit palm one, order their dry-aged, USDA PRIME NY Strip the same way u grilled your NY Strip, no condiments, & compare; then re-visit the statement above. s'il vous plaît 

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If the poster meant that there is a lot of variation within USDA prime, and the best steakhouses have a superior source of USDA Prime beef then I agree with him.

[Holly Moore]

I think this emphasis on USDA grade and aging method vastly over-simplifies what goes into making a great steak.

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I'd be interested in your take on the other factors that make a great steak.

A couple of mine. First of all: USDA Prime. Something like 20 years ago, give or take a decade, the USDA redefined prime beef, lowering the standards for prime. What was at one point considered top choice was incorporated into prime. So the prime of our forefathers is not necessarily the prime we get at a steakhouse today.

At the same time, the top end steakhouse chains, along with the casios, have the buying power to bully the meat purveyors into giving them the prime of the prime. What, in terms of conformation and marbling was considered prime beef way back when.

Also there are those who do not accept that prime guarantees the best tasting/eating steak. They maintain that there is more flavor in a high end choice steak. Beyond that some of the non USDA Graded products such as most of the Black Angus brands of certification, can also be a superior steak.

I think if I were ordering a strip steak I'd probably go for prime. But my favorite steak is a rib steak and it's hard to beat a high end choice or top quality, ungraded, Black Angus rib eye.

Aging: I always prefer dry-aged. But I'm not sure that is not mostly emotional and perhaps the result of butcher brainwashing. I've never done a side by side of dry aged and wet aged. It would be an interesting experiment.

Beyond that there is the grilling of the steak. Gentle or Pittsburgh shock and awe. My favorite is probably a semi-Pittsburgh medium rare. Enough carcinogenous char on the outside to add another layer of flavor. I apologize in advance to those who advocate a kinder, gentler grjlling and who believe that charring ruins great beef.

Editied to add: Composed at the same time as R. Washburn who manged to say in one sentence what I crammed into a couple of paragraphs.

Edited October 18, 2005 by Holly Moore (log)

[9lives]

There's going to be some overlap between the high end of "choice" and the bottom end of "prime"..It's human beings making a judgement call..and agree that standard have dropped over the last 20 years.

There's also the Certified Angus Beef which claims that they use the top 35% of choice or prime...unless it's specifically Certified Angus Prime. USDA grading is optional and you have beef like Niman Ranch, Snake River, and other small producers who say their beef is "better than prime." Wolfe Neck, a small farm in Maine claims USDA Choice or better. All can be good to excellent steaks.

I've tasted Angus strip...dry aged and wet/unaged head to head and the dry aged was clearly superior..deeper, beefier flavor...both charred, rare +..like Holly likes.

I think a steak at the NY Palm will be better than other branches because of the dry aging.

USDA Prime steak tips vs Cerified Angus tips..no comparison..Prime is superior.

I'm about to throw a 21 day aged, "all natural" ungraded strip on the grill (Whole Foods) It's nicely marbled but nothing like some "prime" I've purchased. I was going to do a head to head, aged vs unaged..same cut of beef...but Mrs 9 didn't want steak tonight so I just got the 1.

Edited October 18, 2005 by 9lives (log)

[jgould]

nice to see the serious & well-thought out comments. regardless of angus, hi-end choice, lo-end USDA-Prime, etc. etc...; the bottom line: the top restaurants charge an arm & a leg, but at the end of the day, "IF" u are truly receiving a dry-aged USDA Prime, there is no comparison PERIOD.

peter luger is peter luger because they only serve the creme-de-la creme & having been there, done that command the respect of the meatpackers. comparable restaurants serve the same! thats why the very few deserve their reputations & would be incredibly foolish to try & sneak by anything less!!

any overlaps are from those looking to cut corners. there is no doubt a dry-aged USDA PRIME today, tomorrow, 50 yrs ago has not changed 1 iota AT THE VERY TOP END. if u think so, you're kidding yourself. there simply are not very many in the ENTIRE country that serve these; therefore, u definitely pay up, but in this case, its worth it. now, if we could only get them to charge less for a lowly potato????

"Also there are those who do not accept that prime guarantees the best tasting/eating steak. They maintain that there is more flavor in a high end choice steak."

for those who believe this is a true statement, i have a bridge for sale.

[wesza]

The "PROPER" aging of beef is much more complicated then it seems.

There is even a vast disparity between the finesse required for "Dry Aging" as well as incorrectly termed "Wet Aging".

In fact the great majority of utilization of either methodology is rarely done correctly even at the majority of operations who advertise terms such as 14/21/28 days aged.

Unless this is done the right way it often meaningless as it takes more then letting it hang from a meat hook or on a shelf or remaining in a carton until rotated and cut into portions for serving.

It may often taste better then very freshly killed beef, but it's more of how it was slaughtered and dressed. Then even more important the sorting after grading before being broken, averaged and packed for delivery.

To attempt to provide details explaining the science and chemistry required to make sure that every steak served meets managements expectations would require more then a simple explanation.

There is no comparison between a Whole Shortloin or Rib Section being aged to a "Noble" finish then dressed, trimmed and butchered to specification.

The Roasts and Steaks will have a rich, beefy flavor, character and finish that may only be offered rarely.

The premise "Of No Wine Before It's Time" also applies to "No Steak Before It's Time" except that it's much harder to correctly age Steaks. Your raw materials are much more expensive, perishable and have to be stored under refrigeration at a consistently high labor cost. Average the actual cost of a New York Strip Loin Steak compared to your average bottle of wine. Food costs on Steaks are often higher then Liquor cost on Wine based on selling prices while the majority of Restaurants don't often take into consideration the intangible costs involved.

It requires a Restaurant Operator to invest considerable capitol in his inventory.

If the Steakhouse serves 250 meals daily it may require keeping, rotating and paying in advance for a inventory of about 25,000 pounds of high quality Beef or more as availability means buy the best "When you can get it".

It also requires competent Meatcutters who will rotate, judge, receive and keep track of your investment as well as paperwork, bookkeeping and costing out your production while tracking you suppliers, watching your refrigeration and making sure that all trimmings are accounted for while being utilized.

I could continue to reiterate much more regarding what actually transpires in providing something so special but it becomes more technical. I hope I haven't given more information then was expected.

That's why the great majority of establishments sell the "Sizzle", the "Heat" the whatever but it's mostly merchandising trying to sell you the experience and gambling that with ambivalence, cocktails, wine and after dinner drinks you'll agree. Thats why putting more money into advertising, public relations and promotions then product satisfies the customer.

Irwin

[oakapple]

If the poster meant that there is a lot of variation within USDA prime, and the best steakhouses have a superior source of USDA Prime beef then I agree with him.

←

I certainly did mean that. Steve Cuozzo has a full article in today's post, mentioning other factors that go into the taste of the steak. Read the article, and you'll find even Luger is coy as to both its aging and cooking methods. Then there are the issues of cooking temperature, charred vs uncharred, sliced vs served whole, on vs off-the bone, and so forth—all of which are endlessly debated.

Obviously, all things being equal, I would prefer USDA prime dry-aged steaks. But all things aren't equal.