Otto Enoteca Pizzeria

[MartyL]

I ate at Otto on Wednesday night and have a few thoughts:

1. This is a great concept restaurant. The crowd was lively and happy and it is nice that they have so much room in the bar area. Even though the wine prices are eminently fair, they are going to make a killing pouring for people while they wait just on sheer volume alone.

2. I agree with Cabby's remark about the pizza crust being too dry. I also think the tomato sauce used on the pizzas needs more herbs to give it flavor, although I understand the whole authenticity point. Its odd that I enjoyed this pizzeria a lot, even though I found the pizza to be just ok. I think what FG said way up top about the quality of the ingredients is spot on.

3. The Caprese was delicious. Best fresh mozzarella I've had in a long time.

4. Where can I get me some of those amazing olives? They were terrifically rich and fruity.

5. That gelato lady has serious talent. The olive oil gelato with sea salt and blood oranges was fantastic.

6. What's with the "ice cream sandwiches?" Bread and gelato? I don't get it.

7. Service was friendly, casual and full of smiles.

8. I'll definitely be back, soon and hopefully often.

[lxt]

Lunched at Otto today, with a highly perceptive EGer.

A highly perceptive eGer was highly affected by the aesthetics at Otto along with the highly developed symbolic communication expressed through “mms” and “yums” of her highly valued companion.

For antipasti, we chose the seafood grande option which, as was explained to us by our wonderful waitress, referred not to the size of the selected individual dish, but rather to a smaller portion of every option under their Fish Antipasti entry which included swordfish, octopus, anchovies, scungilli, and mussels. The order came in small red cups positioned cozily on a tray (see FG pictures earlier in this thread.) Cured Swordfish with lemon juice and deeply fried onions with a little olive oil at the bottom of a cup was exceptional: tender, with a perfect proportion of saltiness and lemon acid. Octopus in a spicy marinara-like sauce was delicious: the meat was delicate and the sauce had a little spice that didn’t overwhelm the tender flesh. The real surprise was their special frito: deep fried smelt with fried basil leaves and fried lemon rind. Golden brown and crispy, the fish was excellent.

When we finally got to pizzas, I realized that if I ever visit a new place again, I am not going to read Cabby’s reviews. It started even earlier with anchovies. I couldn’t properly enjoy the food but rather processed Cabby’s description of each little detail of the dish, following her logic by deconstructing pieces into particles, molecules and other bits invisible to human eyes. I concur with Cabby that the “anchovies tasted good,” that the “bread was crusty and had been soaked heavily in olive oil” and that the bread “was not inappropriate with the anchovies.”

However, when the time came to sample pizzas, all I had in mind was “pita bread.” I thought it was an excellent comparison. Though when hot, the crust was not so obviously reminiscent of a pita bread, it became more so upon cooling. The thinness of the crust was quite attractive, and the fresh topping ingredients offset the crust‘s blandness; however, I agree with Cabrales that “near the edges there was a noticeable dry aspect that [could be] found to be a problem” considering that the crust as a stand-alone element of the dish was not flavorsome enough and quite dry.

I have yet to sample an authentic Neapolitan-style pizza, and perhaps I won’t favor this genre; however, both jaybee and I concluded that if ever we returned, it would be for their antipasti and specials with perhaps just one pizza order as a side dish.

The service was wonderful. We felt well-pampered by every crew member stopping by our table. In fact, we had to inquire several times about our gelatos as we kept forgetting which was which, and every time we were provided with a patient, informative answer . One complaint made earlier by Cabrales was that they don’t serve gelato in different serving plates, but rather position two different types in one plate side by side. The problem was that the scoops of gelato started melting pretty quickly, mixing the flavors. It didn’t seem to make any sense, and we pointed that out to our wonderful waitress who assured us that she would deliver the message to the kitchen as they still collecting people’s opinions.

Among the gelatos, olive oil was the most interesting one to me. The taste of olive oil was almost transparent, but was detectible upon taking the first couple of spoons until your taste buds were no longer sensitive to a new flavor. I did think, however, that it had a goat cheese aftertaste as well. As peculiar as it sounds, I didn’t find the flavor offensive, but rather interesting and pleasurable.

Overall, the lunch was a complete delight which was certainly aided by the wit and fun of my companion.

Edited January 18, 2003 by lxt (log)

[ZenFoodist]

My husband, his cousin and fiancee braved the arctic air yesterday afternoon and headed to lower Fifth for a wonderful sharing-fest at Otto.

Having recently returned from a loooooooooooong Tuscan/Ligurian sojurn it was pretty cool to be in what we considered a "true" Italian establishment once again. I particularly loved the marble-topped standing stations heaped with Corriere della Sera newspapers. The handsome host, Sergio, chatted up a storm in Italiano and implored us to come back for breakfast for homemade cantucci and cappucino. Yum.

There's very little I can add to Suvir's excellent assessment, however the pannelle which were the fritto of the day deserve some accolades. Quite different from Joe's of Avneue U's thin rectangular sheets layered on a hard roll and smothered with ricotta that I pine for every couple of months. Quite different from the pannelle dolce that I whip up in my Sicilian kitchen for Easter. These were triagular, plush and almost polenta-like- crisp outside and creamy within. Celestial. I also loved the sliced paper-thin beets with horseradish and walnuts, although eight dollars for what amounted to a fourth of a large beet (thats' being generous) seemed a bit steep. Quite delish nonetheless. I enjoyed the crunch of the julienned celery root salad with citrus a bit more. The caponata and Sicilan cauliflower were alomst identical to my mom's which is the highest praise I can bestow. All gelati that we tasted were phenomenal in every sense of the word. I was partial to the deep, dark chocolate which I happily found not to be too sweet. Meyer lemon, hazelnut, vanilla and the the two specials- huckleberry and ricotta with walnuts and braised figs were very dense and creamy. The best I've had in NY, including Ambroseus.

I'm looking forward to a Wednesday visit to sample the fritto daily offering, arancine. Sergio told us that instead of the usual ragu to which our Sicilian-American group is accustomed, Mario stuffs the interiors with chicken liver. Outside of one vendor at Palermo's Vucciria we haven't had any innard-stuffed rice balls:) We'll see how it goes.

All in all a very pleasant lunch with great service.

Strange comment: Did anyone else find that the red painted-tables didn't exactly do it? I'm never one to comment on interiors..generally an all-about-the-food type of girl...buuuuuuuuuuuut the tables should have been more rustic I thought...they gave the room a bit of an Ikea feel.

Just my .o2.

Ciao ragazzi,

ZenFoodist

[marcus]

Authentic Neapolitan pizza is soft, pliable, a bit chewy and always easy to cut. It is not overly dry and not brittle. It is never served sliced. The edge is thicker than the interior, and although most Neapolitans eat the entire pizza, lighter eaters often cut off the edge. The more that I reat about Otto's, the less similarity it seems to have to real Neapolitan pizza.

[ZenFoodist]

Almost forgot to mention-

the PIZZA!!!

I really enjoyed my potato, anchovy, and fried sage 'za. However I was a bit surprised by the cheese addition. In my house the marriage of cheese and fish has always been a mortal sin. While I didn't mind the light layer of melted cheese that was beneath the toppings I think it might have been better senza formaggio, with a bit more olive oil instead.

The clams in their shells on the vongole pizza didn't bother me. As someone here commented, "Italians like to see that their fish is fresh." So soes this NYer. :) Of course our party had to compare Mario's pizza vongole with Pepe's in New Haven- a place we drive up to on a regular basis at whim so enamored are we of the bubbling, clam-strewn pies.

Quattro stagioni was excellent and we particularly enjoyed the almost black chard in one quadrant.

That's all for now.

[rstarobi]

Authentic Neapolitan pizza is soft, pliable, a bit chewy and always easy to cut.  It is not overly dry and not brittle.  It is never served sliced.  The edge is thicker than the interior, and although most Neapolitans eat the entire pizza, lighter eaters often cut off the edge.  The more that I reat about Otto's, the less similarity it seems to have to real Neapolitan pizza.

Marcus,

The intention of Mario Batali was not to present authentic Neapolitan pizza, but rather to present authentic Sardinian pizza - different style of crust.

[Jason Perlow]

I wasnt aware Sardegna had pizza traditions of its own... I thought Pizza was a strictly a creation from Napoli.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Even as far away as Nice there is a local pizza style. It has onions and Niciose olives and no tomato sauce. And the dough is thicker. And in Apulia they make the dough out of potato flour.

[Jason Perlow]

But the pizza from Napoli is the ur-pizza, the prototype, right?

[jaybee]

Derivation of Pizza

The OED says that pizza is simply Italian for "pie", but Mark Morton, author of Cupboard Love, does not agree.  He says that torta is Italian for "pie" and that pizza simply means "pizza"!  How's that for etymology?  Actually, there is a bit more to it.  Pizza, he suggests, carries the etymological meaning of "sharp point", a reference to the tartness or sharpness of the tomato sauce and the herbs in the sauce.  He cites a related Italian word and phrase: pizzicare, a verb meaning "to pluck" (cf. pizzicato, a musical term which tells a string player to pluck rather than bow), and a la pizzaiola, an Italian phrase used for any dish containing tart tomato sauce. Anyhow, as far as usage, the OED first records the word in 1935

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, let's talk a wee bit about the history of pizza.  A form of  pizza had been eaten by Italian peasants for hundreds of years before the modern version was created.  Once the tomato made it to Italy, a close relative of today's pizza was born: pizza alla marinara (marinara because it was popular as a food for fisherman; marinara sauce takes its name from this), made from tomatoes, olive oil, garlic, and later, anchovies. 

Today's pizza is said to have been born in Napoli (Naples) at the hands of S.G. Raffaele Esposito, baker at the pizzeria Pietro e Basta Cosi.  In honor of the visit of King Umberto I and Queen Margherita to Naples, he prepared what was the typical pizza alla marinara, but he added mozzarella and basil to it.  This he named in honor of Queen Margherita.  That type of pizza, often called pizza Margherita, can be found served in restaurants today (after an absence of several decades, at least in the U.S.).   It is claimed that Esposito settled on that array of toppings because they reflected the colors of the Italian flag: red (marinara sauce), white (mozzarella cheese) and green (basil).  All of this happened back in 1889.  To this day, Naples is considered the official home of pizza, where strict pizza-making rules are enforced.

Interestingly, we have found another explanation of the derivation of the word pizza: that it evolved from picea, the corrupted form of a Latin word used to describe the black ashes and debris underneath the pizza in the oven.  However, this source does not give the uncorrupted Latin word and gives no other supporting information for this etymology.  

Edited January 20, 2003 by jaybee (log)

[Fat Guy]

What the New York Times reported was:

"Mario Batali is about to open Otto at 1 Fifth Avenue, where he will serve thin, crisp pizza inspired by the Sardinian flat bread called carta da musica"

The thing is, the pizza crust at Otto bears no resemblance (other than being flat and round) to any carta da musica or pane carasau I've ever seen, and it doesn't seem to conform to any of the recipes out there. I'm also having trouble finding any discussion of Sardinian pizza in the literature. The pliability and appearance of the pizza crust at Otto is more in the Neapolitan category than it is in any other category I'm aware of.

Has anybody here eaten Sardinian pizza in Sardinia? Assuming there is any sort of serious independent Sardinian pizza tradition, what are the salient crust characteristics that would differentiate it from Neapolitan? Is a different flour utilized? Different ovens? Toppings?

[SobaAddict70]

Grimes' mini review of Otto in today's NYTimes

It's hard to get pretentious when you're matching wine to a pizza pie.

Not sure what to make of that last sentence -- vintage Grimes in any event.

SA

[tommy]

Grimes' mini review of Otto in today's NYTimes

It's hard to get pretentious when you're matching wine to a pizza pie.

Not sure what to make of that last sentence -- vintage Grimes in any event.

SA

i think he means that they were shooting for, and achieved, a place free of pretense. in a positive way.

[SobaAddict70]

I thought the review read well and seemed consistent with experiences as posted here.

However, I thought that last sentence was a little ambiguous. (Grimes has a certain reputation which may or may not be undeserved. The sentence only serves to reinforce his reputation in my opinion -- it could have been worded differently or struck entirely. Oh well, I guess the full review will tell.)

SA

[SobaAddict70]

I'm still trying to parse the meaning of the word "is".

You can take it either way...all I will say is that he's (in)famous for having a certain....style.

SA

[La Niña]

The pizzas need improvement, that's all. Poor and awful strike me as overreactions, especially when you consider the superlativeness of the ingredients. I also agree with Jason that the standard for measuring these pizzas is a Neapolitan/Sardinian/whatever standard and not whatever we're used to in New Haven, Harlem, Brooklyn, or wherever. Batali's pizzas make a decent technical showing in that regard.

FG, what do you mean by "decent technical showing in that regard?" If the crust stinks, which it does, how is it in any way "decent" pizza?

[Bux]

I thought the fennel sausage was better than the testa. For the record, I thought it was a very usable addition to the dining/food scene in NYC and I thought the pizza was the least successful part of the menu and the gelati the most successful, but I enjoyed all of it. I suspect the hype and criticism are both being overdone because Mario Batali is associated with it. If it were seen as the neighborhood restaurant/snack bar it works as, it would get high marks. Unfortunately it's expected to be a destination place. It might even be that as a gelateria.

When I was there I didn't think it was cheap, although I remarked that one could buy a three course dinner (with pizza as the main course) for less than the price of a burger at db bistro. Now with inflation and truffle burgers, you can eat at Otto for half the price of a burger at db.

It's still not cheap, but there's good value. What's puzzling to me is that that so many feel the need to carry this on for nine pages. I'd not have judged it to be that important an addition to the scene.

[cabrales]

pretty much everything else at the restaurant is terrific.

Steven -- "Terrific" relative to what? Terrific is far too strong a word.

Edited January 24, 2003 by cabrales (log)

[Fat Guy]

FG, what do you mean by "decent technical showing in that regard?"  If the crust stinks, which it does, how is it in any way "decent" pizza?

What I mean is that Neapolitan or Sardinian or whatever-the-hell crust he's trying to emulate is supposed to have many of the characteristics that people seem to be complaining about. But more importantly the crust simply does not stink. I just can't see how anybody could take that position. It's not a great crust. That doesn't mean it stinks. There's no need to portray it as an extreme situation. It's not.

[Fat Guy]

pretty much everything else at the restaurant is terrific.

Steven -- "Terrific" relative to what? Terrific is far too strong a word.

Terrific period. Also terrific relative to pizzerias in general. And as good as the ingredients you'd get at fine-dining establishments charging much more money. Most of the ingredients I've sampled have been as good as the best examples of their kind that I've tasted.

[La Niña]

FG, what do you mean by "decent technical showing in that regard?"  If the crust stinks, which it does, how is it in any way "decent" pizza?

What I mean is that Neapolitan or Sardinian or whatever-the-hell crust he's trying to emulate is supposed to have many of the characteristics that people seem to be complaining about. But more importantly the crust simply does not stink. I just can't see how anybody could take that position. It's not a great crust. That doesn't mean it stinks. There's no need to portray it as an extreme situation. It's not.

Who cares if he's emulating characteristics? That doesn't mean it's good - even if he's emulating them well, it just means he's trying to emulate something bad. Again, a culinary error.

I think the crust does stink. Tasteless, bland, lousy texture, uninteresting, flat, boring, no salt - it's like somebody threw some flour and water together - no kidding, this is what the Israelites carried out of Egypt.

Edited January 24, 2003 by La Niña (log)

[swissmiss]

I had dinner at Otto last night, and left as enthusiastic as I had arrived. We had the meat grande (the prosciutto was not dry, and I liked the head cheese, of which I am usually not a fan), the fritto del giorno (pizza dough sprinkled with grated pecorino and chili flakes), and 4 antipasti: eggplant capponata, sweet and sour onions, artichokes and beans. All flavors were balanced yet simple.

We shared three pizzas: the ricotta/potato/anchovy that has already been discussed below. It was everyone's favorite--very creamy, with a perfect harmony of tastes between the sweetness of the ricotta and the saltiness of the anchovies. It became instant comfort food. The second favorite was the garlic/oil/red peppers, which was not dried out even though it didn't have cheese or sauce. The third choice, prosciutto and arugula, was good but a couple of levels below the other two. The flavors were not as contrasted. I would have prefered such toppings on a pizza without sauce actually, but simply drizzled with olive oil.

For dessert we had the hazelnut, chocolate, vanilla, and olive oil gelati. My dining companions were sceptical when I ordered the olive oil one, but all ended up repeatedly dipping their spoons in my cup!

All in all, an experience that I hope to repeat often. The service was excellent and friendly, and the food every bit what I wanted. I am used to the thin-crust pizzas of Switzerland, where all the pizzerias are Italian-owned (only Pizza Hut serves dip-dish there) and with Otto I finally found that taste again.

[La Niña]

I am used to the thin-crust pizzas of Switzerland, where all the pizzerias are Italian-owned (only Pizza Hut serves dip-dish there) and with Otto I finally found that taste again.

Taste in the crust? You found taste in the crust?

I've had lots of pizza in northern Italy - the areas closest to Switzerland actually - and I love the thin crusts there. This was nothing like it. It's not even baked in an oven.

[Fat Guy]

Who cares if he's emulating characteristics?  That doesn't mean it's good - even if he's emulating them well, it just means he's trying to emulate something bad.  Again, a culinary error.

The only way he's trying to emulate something bad is if Italian pizza is bad. And I don't think it is.

I think the crust does stink. Tasteless, bland, lousy texture, uninteresting, flat, boring, no salt - it's like somebody threw some flour and water together - no kidding, this is what the Israelites carried out of Egypt.

It has salt, just not enough. The texture is in my opinion excellent, as Italian pizza aspires to be. I think it should be cooked longer. I don't agree that it's tasteless; though it does need more salt I get a definite biscuity, yeasty flavor from it. Not that I love the flavor, but it has flavor. As for interesting, well, ten pages of posts would seem to refute any claim of lack of interestingness!

[Jonathan Day]

What the New York Times reported was:

"Mario Batali is about to open Otto at 1 Fifth Avenue, where he will serve thin, crisp pizza inspired by the Sardinian flat bread called carta da musica"

The thing is, the pizza crust at Otto bears no resemblance (other than being flat and round) to any carta da musica or pane carasau I've ever seen, and it doesn't seem to conform to any of the recipes out there. I'm also having trouble finding any discussion of Sardinian pizza in the literature. The pliability and appearance of the pizza crust at Otto is more in the Neapolitan category than it is in any other category I'm aware of.

Has anybody here eaten Sardinian pizza in Sardinia? Assuming there is any sort of serious independent Sardinian pizza tradition, what are the salient crust characteristics that would differentiate it from Neapolitan? Is a different flour utilized? Different ovens? Toppings?

FG, I have not had pizza in Sardinia, but I have had variations on pane carasau -- e.g. pane frattau where they turn the flatbread layers back into a kind of lasagne, by dipping them in salted water and then layering them with tomato sauce, cheese and finishing with an egg. It tastes much better than it sounds.

Pane carasau -- if that is what Otto are serving -- would not work well for pizza. It is too thin and crisp to hold topping ingredients. In any event it is not made on a griddle, but in a woodburning oven much like a pizza oven. I have seen griddle breads called, I think, piadine. But these are Roman. And they taste nothing like a pizza.