Lenotre vs. Bellouet Conseil

[Anni]

Hi all,

I've been lurking for quite awhile, but have finally decided to delurk to request advice.

One of my true loves in the pastry world are French-style cakes -- entremets, petits gateaux, etc. Unfortunately, my pastry training and work experience has not offered me as much opportunity as I'd like to pursue these topics. I've made some efforts on my own, but it's been like learning in a vacuum.

I'm currently between jobs and now have the opportunity to travel to France this fall to take classes. I'm considering both Bellouet Conseil and Lenotre, but cannot decide. Has anyone taken courses at either school? What can you say about your experiences there regarding the instructors, facilities, coursework, etc?

Any info would be greatly appreciated!

[nightscotsman]

I haven't taken classes at either school, so I can't be of much help, but I can say that I think the pastry books put out by Bellouet are far better than those by Lenotre. Not sure how this reflects on the actual schools.

[Carrot Top]

You might get some additional responses if you de-lurk over in the Europe forum under 'France'...

What great fun you will have, with either choice. Enjoy!

[dejaq]

I have not been to Bellouet but studied at Lenotre about twenty years ago, Lenotre is an interesting place back then about $5000 a week, (I had to sell my Audi to go for three weeks)plus airfare and lodging.I found it commercial, but a valuable experience, but as for circa 2004 Bellouet, I think is more artistianal, good luck on your decision.

P.S. go to Paris and canvas it like there is no end in sight, bring a lot of cash (samples) a take pics where you can, you will learn more in a day back at your hotel by reverse engineering stuff, it will make weeks at either school a passing fancy.

[artisanbaker]

http://www.ecoledelapatisserie.com/

i would recommend this school over both based upon advise from mentors. i think that if you make good contacts there they can help you stage at local places.

i would probably pick bellouet over lenotre just because the size of the class and the overage average quality of instructors is better. (from my knowledge; i've done a lot of research on all this)

you can work at lenotre school if you get you get the right contacts. i was offered a job there in 2002. i don't think the same opportunity exists at bellouet.

no matter what, i think it's safe to say that no school in america offers as good an education in french baking/pastry as the above three. nightscotsman and others from the french pastry school have impressed us with their mastery of the fundementals and general knowledge. that said, i think ithe fps is worth considering if you're on a budget or can't get a passport.

there's no place like france.

[tan319]

I would second the French Pastry School if you aren't stuck on the idea of just being in France.

Just look at Neils (nightscotsman) page.

The caliber of work is awesome, you have a MOF on staff (Sebastian Cannone), looks like a winner to me.

Otherwise, Bellouet would be my choice, if that's the path you would like to take.

[Anni]

You guys are awesome -- thanks so much for all the input! Lots to think about; I love that!

Re FPS: I've seen nightscotsman's page and also check in at the FPS web site regularly to see what's going on with guest chef classes. I'm amazed! If I were choosing a B&P program all over again, I would definitely think about FPS. Not to knock the program I did choose, but my interests are more developed/focussed now. Ah well, hindsight is 20/20...

[Steve Klc]

Anni, in '97 or '98, I took a few weeks of classes (entremets, viennoiserie, chocolate) with Bellouet himself, and highly recommend him, especially if you're interested in the French-style cake production techniques you see on display in his books. He practically defined that genre and the younger MOFs who now teach in France and the US were heavily influenced by him. His work in those 3 weeks was the cleanest I had ever seen up to that point. I didn't go to France for this, but here in DC in a school and production bakery he helped set up with another French pastry chef partner. He's charming, willing to share and a consummate professional with top notch bench skills.

As artisanbaker mentioned, Yssingeaux has a fantastic reputation amongst working French pros, but I don't have any personal experience about what it is like being an American taking classes there.

Anni, one thing though, these French MOF cake guys from a Bellouet, an Yssingeaux, etc. come here to teach--many MOFs basically start making the rounds, paid to demo and teach once they "get" the MOF--so unless you ALSO wanted to go to France, you could take the same specialized courses with the same cake guys who come for a week as a guest instructor: Sebastien Cannone, Caffet, Bajard, etc.

Artisanbaker--are you basing your safe to say comment on firsthand experience--having taught or taken classes as various schools and with various teachers both in the US and France? based mainly on comments from others? and is your experience at these schools more bread than pastry? I'm not sure what you mean and don't want to read too much into it.

[confiseur]

Anni..........

Great that you have such an opportunity......I have attended both Lenotre and Bellouet regularly over the last few years and can highly recommend them . Both schools are full of top class craftsmen with never less than 3 MOF's on-sight at any one time.

Lenotre is a fraction more traditional than the more 'modern' Bellouet which is in its turn somewhat smaller and does not have quite as good facilities as Lenotre. Bellouet is however better situated being only half a mile from the nearest metro where-as Lenotre is located 45 minutes from Paris. After class we all used to rush into town to look at the pastryshops,this is not very convenient from Lenotre.

Concerning cost,their is not much difference between the two and both have contacts should you wish to prolong your stay with a working break in France.

English is understood at both schools though a basic knowledge of the French language would be helpfull to facilitate your learning .

If you have a chance to go..........take it...... you can always take classes at home but such an experience is not to be missed .

Edited September 2, 2004 by confiseur (log)

[Redsugar]

Anni: Surely a marvellous expérience is to be unfolded at your arrival in the land of bon vivant! Yet, now may be the hour to hearken to Chef David Ruggerio’s sage advice: “You don’t learn to cook in France. You learn a way of thinking…the attitude that everything has to be perfect.” And this profound summation from Peter Mayle: "I can't pretend to have scratched the surface of French gastronomy."

And, “for what to do when you first reach Paris,” you may like to read a brief introduction: http://www.bonjourparis.com/pages/articles/articleId/1483

Rest assured that regular readers of this forum would be delighted to have an “investigative reporter” gourmandising her way through Paris. It is a hedonistic, but highly rewarding, metropolis. Keep your camera active and send us pictures through the digital pipe. ;-)

A few of the premier chocolatiers et pâtissiers in Paris:

Dalloyau

http://www.boulevard-des-gourmets.com/doss...oyau/bouche.htm

DeBauve & Gallais

http://www.debauve-et-gallais.com/

La Maison du Chocolate (6th Arrondissement)

Jean-Paul Hevin…the “chocolate jeweller.”

Gérard Mulot

http://www.gerard-mulot.com/

All the best to you in your endeavours.

[artisanbaker]

Artisanbaker--are you basing your safe to say comment on firsthand experience--having taught or taken classes as various schools and with various teachers both in the US and France? based mainly on comments from others? and is your experience at these schools more bread than pastry? I'm not sure what you mean and don't want to read too much into it.

My comments are based upon personal research in France; mainly from past participants and company representatives. I went through a period in 2003 where I was strongly considering going to an extended study in France, so I considered each respective school. As I have used the conditional tense, I have not attended these schools. I am instead offering some simple advice about something that I have spent 100+ hours researching.

I was offered a job at Lenotre at Europain 2002, where they had an amazing booth. There was a young man, 21 years of age, blowing sugar with a mastery to rival MOFs. Fluidity, grace, creativity, and precision are words I would use to characterise his gests. At 21 years.

When I inquired about their programs in depth, they explained that many of the courses were "supervised" by MOFs etc. I "gathered" that this is the equivilant to Jaques Torres supervising the program at the FCI. I do realise and acknowledge that many of the course are indeed taught by the masters themselves.

The Bellouet course are directly taught by the experts themselves. 100%.

Of note, Gataen Paris from Bellouet also teaches at the Yssingeaux.

My field and professional mentors come mainly from the bread baking industry as such and not from sugar blowing pastry chefs. That said, I seek today to complement my skills with certain pastry applications as well as business applications. This has motivated me to explore, in depth, said avenues.

One school no one has mentioned is Ferrandi, although it is not as celebrated these day. It does not offer short term programs like the previous three.

Grand Moulins de Paris offer short term that are also worth considering but in French only.

Regards