Lyon

[Bux]

It is such a mistake for a restaurant to allow anyone to translate menu items unless that person is truly familiar with food terms in both languages. I can guess how a few of those--and I agree with Lisa, those are very poetic menu items in English--came about from a word by word translation. Rereading the list, I suspect I shouldn't even suspect it was "anyone" who composed the English, but a machine.

I have not been in Lyon in a few years. I have very different, but very pleasant memories of dining at both Orsi and Leon de Lyon. I've dined at Leon de Lyon three times over the course of more than a decade and each meal has been very different. It was fascinating to see the restaurant change. I dined but once at Orsi and it was after a personal introduction and after showing up with a rather large truffle presented to me by a winemaker in Provence. Chef Orsi graciously incorporated that truffle into a meal for four of us. Needless to say it was a memorable meal, but the raviole of foie gras was the most exceptional good old fashioned French comfort food with, or without, a ton of fresh truffle on top. Unfortunately, even if personal memories didn't cloud my opinion, I've not dined in either of those two places in too long to offer a valid recommendation. I really don't know how the food is today, although I respect both chefs immensely.

If I may throw a monkey wrench into things however, I've read great things about Auberge de l'Ile and we ate very well at the hands of Nicolas Le Bec when he was cooking at Les Loges. There were a few offputting aspects to the service, but I'd be interested in seeing what he's doing at his own restaurant now.

[bleudauvergne]

I have not been in Lyon in a few years. I have very different, but very pleasant memories of dining at both ...

Bux please do come and see us the next time you come through.

I recently had a meal at Gourmet de Seze and wrote my description of the meal. I would not classify it as the top of the top of fine dining but if it's value for price and honest good food you're looking for, that's it. They have one star. If we'd been seated in a fabulous dining room it would have been perfect. But part of the charm was that it was rather low key and tucked away on a residential street.

[balmagowry]

Lucy, how do the bouchons Andrew mentions compare to M. Pierre's place?

[bleudauvergne]

Lucy, how do the bouchons Andrew mentions compare to M. Pierre's place?

Thank you Lisa, I'm just taking a breather from work and noticed that in addition to fine dining Andrew mentions bouchons.

I have eaten at La Mere Jean, and frankly, I walked out of there bloated and feeling rather like going to sleep. It's morphed out of all proportions into offal prepared to feed the expectations of the tourists, i.e. heavy heavy enormous proportions drowning in pools of fat. The atmosphere was the caricature of what a tourist expects complete with cigar smoking cook in the back with the goal of drawing more crowds of masochists in the door. Don't get me wrong, I love a double gras (which is a slow braised and then fried tripe dish) now and then, which I must note is not at all greasy if prepared in the correct way. Offal deep fried to oblivian = Lyon tourist trap.

To answer Lisa's question : rien a faire avec Chez Pierre, which I recommend to dearest friends, but not to strangers because I just don't want them to be dissapointed for the lack of obvious hype. By the way, you can get a properly prepared double gras chez Pierre if you order off the set menus which are 19 and 23€ if I remember correctly. You have to be able to appreciate it for what it is and not expect theater when you go there. It's a lovely place for a casual meal. And I consider eGulleters my dearest friends.

Chez Pierre

2, rue Mazenod, 3e

04.78.60.56.37

Another very low key casual and comfortable place to rest if you are strolling the streets of the Presqu'ile and need to stop is Arbre a The, which is a tea house near the Quai St. Antoine that serves quiches, salads, and desserts in addition to their tea menu. They are not open for dinner.

Arbre a The

4, rue du petit David 2e

04.72.40.06.68

[Bux]

This thread brings a lot of thoughts to mind, not the least just because it's about Lyon. Whenever I read someone's words dismissing a visit to Lyon, I am puzzled. I'm eager to return yet again and the prospect of a bistrot/bouchon/machon dinner with Lucy is icing on the cake.

Lyon has never been known first for its haute cuisine, although I've had exceptionally fine meals there and when Bocuse was its best, it was thought of as a Lyon restaurant. It's not that there's been a dearth of fine restaurants, but that in spite of fine restaurants, Lyon's own style of eating has been best expressed by the number and quality of it's little restaurants. It always seems a pity to pass though Lyon without having tripe in some form. I realize I may well contribute to the mass of tourism that encourages restaurants to morph into caricatures of Lyonnaise restaurants with "offal prepared to feed the expectations of the tourists." For all that's written about Lyon and for all the restaurant guide books, it's easier to find the best haute cuisine than the best tablier de sapeur. There was a small place by the Halles in which we once had lunch. I think I owe finding it to an old Patricia Wells book, but the last time we were near the Halles, we couldn't find it. I may have lost my sense of where exactly it was, or it may have disappeared.

Lisa's question about comparing bouchons led me to think that it should be a little bit like comparing one's children. Hopefully, you come to appreciate them for their differences and try not to rank them in order.

[balmagowry]

Lisa's question about comparing bouchons led me to think that it should be a little bit like comparing one's children. Hopefully, you come to appreciate them for their differences and try not to rank them in order.

Actually, Lucy's response was much the one I was looking to elicit: more like comparing one's own child to the children of other people. Not to suggest that Lucy is biased. Rather that she displays a touch of understandable pride in her "child," who is very charming and beautifully-brought-up, if a little shy; whereas some of the other "children" are a little more grossiers by comparison. It is not an exact analogy, of course, since she herself is no more responsible for the special qualities of chez Pierre than for those of any other place in Lyon; still, the fact that as a resident of Lyon she chooses chez Pierre over the other places mentioned - and gives intelligible reasons for it - is not to be taken lightly. I raised the question for two reasons: because as a tourist I would place a lot of value on the suggestions of a local, especially if they were a little off the beaten track; and because in this instance it was already clear from Lucy's earlier description that chez Pierre was something rather special, not what one pictures when a bouchon is mentioned. I was interested in the comparison for myself - but I also figured that Andrew probably hadn't seen the spread on chez Pierre in Lucy's blog and that perhaps it would be of use to him. That said, I should post a link to the appropriate post, but I haven't had coffee yet and am not quite functioning at the required level of efficiency. Will come back and do so later unless someone else beats me to it.

Edited May 15, 2004 by balmagowry (log)

[bleudauvergne]

Click for Chez Pierre.

I completely agree, Bux, one must not try and rank in order.

I was also thinking about that today, since I was a bit harsh on La Mere Jean. It really depends on what you're looking for, and it can be completely appropriate if you're seeking out that sort of thing. La Mere Jean is very easy to get to, and does an awfully good job at creating the impression that you've discovered a special little nook that no one else knows about. It's quite theatrical. The place is very small and very cramped, and smells rather dank, and the greeting at the door is surly in a friendly sort of way, which is very striking, and feeds our imagination and satisfies our curiosity and desire for an affirmation that Lyon is a smelly cramped dark surly place after all where we gorge ourselves on to a catatonic state of bliss on greasy ovecooked andouillette and roll back home to sleep it off.

Bux, you are absolutely right that tripe and andouillette are specialties of the region and should not be missed here, and one dish done well can completely change your outlook on animal parts forever. I had never enjoyed tripe at all until I came here and found that it can taste good, and make you feel as if you are fortifying your soul while eating it.

I would be happy to help you find that restaurant again, Bux. Do you remember anything about it? Color scheme, type of menu, etc?

Edited May 15, 2004 by bleudauvergne (log)

[bleudauvergne]

On the contrary, I find the English very poetic. "Madnesses of Injury," "Mounts of Gold," "Marine of the Wolf"? Wonderfully evocative. Of what, I don't know, but who cares?

"Casserole - middle class way" is my favorite.

Without looking at the French version, I can't tell what some of these started as.

Marine of the wolf - definitely marinated sea bass.

Madnesses of Injury.. What could that be?

[balmagowry]

Thank you for postiing the Chez Pierre link!

On the contrary, I find the English very poetic. "Madnesses of Injury," "Mounts of Gold," "Marine of the Wolf"? Wonderfully evocative. Of what, I don't know, but who cares?

"Casserole - middle class way" is my favorite.

Without looking at the French version, I can't tell what some of these started as.

Marine of the wolf - definitely marinated sea bass.

You think? I got sea-bass, but not marinated. I figure the original is just loup de mer.

Madnesses of Injury..  What could that be?

I don't know, but I'm determined to figure it out, WITHOUT going to the original site.

This reminds me deliciously of English as She is Spoke.

"Nothing some money, nothing of swiss."

[balmagowry]

I think we should have some kind of a little competition to see who can come up with the best versions of "Madnesses of Injury."

Categories:

- Most Accurate

- Most Creative

Under Accurate, my first guess is that it's a dessert. Madnesses comes from some form of folies; Injury from some kind of confusion between tarte and "torte."

I'm still workiing on it.

[bleudauvergne]

I think we would be better off channeling our creative energy into the smackdown, really. I've just looked at the French version of the restaurant's website. Don't bother, the translation is just bizarre, and Andrew is right, the site makes you dizzy. I'm not sure I'd want to eat there after being subjected to the website!

[balmagowry]

Killjoy!

You're right, though - what an AWFUL site.

Didn't explore in detail, but noticed that they have both Loup de Mer and Mariniere de Loup, so who the hell knows. I got Monts d'Or right, and the Madnesses of Injuries MUST somehow be the Folies de Dames Tartines thing, though admittedly it's a hell of a stretch.

OK - smackdown it is!

Edited May 15, 2004 by balmagowry (log)

[Bux]

noticed that they have both Loup de Mer and Mariniere de Loup, so who the hell knows.

I was wondering why it was "marine of the wolf" and not "wolf of the sea," but I can't say I'm any less confused now.

[bleudauvergne]

Killjoy!

You're right, though - what an AWFUL site.

Didn't explore in detail, but noticed that they have both Loup de Mer and Mariniere de Loup, so who the hell knows. I got Monts d'Or right, and the Madnesses of Injuries MUST somehow be the Folies de Dames Tartines thing, though admittedly it's a hell of a stretch.

OK - smackdown it is!

See you over at the Smackdown my dear -

("Housewife" - description of the person running the floor - )

B: Monts d'Or - what is it, exactly?

I don't hink there's much logic to it, Bux, don't worry. When you come and visit we'll go to other places.

[Bux]

I don't hink there's much logic to it, Bux, don't worry.

But I am sad that Orsi's site is so bizarre in English. It's unfit for charming a host not to have a a better introduction to his potential guests who speak English.

I'm assuming the Mounts of Gold refer to the cheese.

[bleudauvergne]

I don't hink there's much logic to it, Bux, don't worry.

But I am sad that Orsi's site is so bizarre in English. It's unfit for charming a host not to have a a better introduction to his potential guests who speak English.

I'm assuming the Mounts of Gold refer to the cheese.

It is in the dessert menu...

[Bux]

I'm assuming the Mounts of Gold refer to the cheese.

It is in the dessert menu...

Hmmm, I still haven't seen the original site in French, but I was thinking of somehow incorporating Vacherin Mont d'Or with honey, although it doesn't sound that appealing, nor does it sound like something Orsi might do.

[bleudauvergne]

I could be just that, Bux. I am thinking of offering to translate their English version in exchange for a meal there. Do you think they'd go for it?

[andrew_j_craig]

These contributions have been as entertaining as they have been informative.

If you can make your way through the awful site, you can print out English and French versions of the various menus. Out of curiousity, I did so but they don't always match up - it's not always possible to do a side by side comparison. The "Frenglish" menu I quoted from earlier seems to have been adapted from a different French menu.

Like balmagowry, I thought I'd target the "madnesses of the injury" - I agree that the most likely, if you can put it that way, approximation for that phrase is "Folies de Dame Tartine et friandises exquises". A quick search on google.fr didn't help much. There seem to be a number of French songs and nursery rhymes along the lines of "La Chanson de Dame Tartine" so I'll need to get to dig deeper to get to the bottom of what this elusive dessert might be. Like Bux, I can't quite get my head around the combination of a gooey, creamy Mont d'Or cheese (at its best in late autumn I would have thought) and acacia honey. Certainly to the non-French speaker, the English translation is more of a hinderance than a help.

bleudauvergne - I like the sound of your suggestion - Gourmet de Seze. I'll take a look a little further. I am not one to slavishly apply the principle that "michelin star = best". Above all, I am going to seek out the type of food I can't easily find in Paris or even less so in London where I live.

Magnolia - I am going in two week's time so no immediate rush for the copy of the menu from Auberge de I'Ile if still you have. A friend who grew up in Lyon but has long since left, also mentioned this to me so it sounds a worthy place.

[Bux]

"Madnesses of Injury Slice of bread and delicacies exquisite."

"Folies de Dame Tartine et Friandes Exquises."

Of course.

Folies = madness

de = of

Dame, I don't get. Usually lady, but there seems to be some technical, mechanical term in which it's used to refer to ram or rammer. I still do't get injury.

Tartine = half a baguette, or "slice of bread" that's been buttered, jammed or otherwise made into an open sandwich.

Friandes = delicacies

Exquises = exquisite.

That "blanc battu des Mont d'Or" leaves me clueless. Is there some Mont d'Or dessert? I know of a Mont Blanc--chestnut puree topped with whipped cream. Is there some Mont d'Or of beaten egg whites (meringue) perhaps.

Reading about Chef and Madame Orsi and just looking at the page titles leads me to believe this can't have been the work of anything but a machine translation. It's certainly not the work of anyone with even a smattering of English. It's a poor service to the restaurant and to the English speaking reader. The web site, even in French, is a triumph of style over substance. It is self serving rather than communicative. It's not the first restaurant site I've seen like that. It appears as if it's a site done by designers full of their own importance and less interested in communication between the restaurant and the diner or the public. In English those faults are compounded. When will designer's learn that we come to a site for information and not necessarily because we're bored and want to be entertained.

Lucy, My guess is that the restaurant may not be so receptive to a proper English translation. For one thing, you will have to overcome the mistaken impression that they have an adequate site in English now. We have to assume they've paid well for the site they have and been sold on the ability of the designer to provide the translation. Even if they're interested, they'll need to have the complete site text altered and in the process, confront the designers. Nevertheless, you have nothing to lose and maybe you'll find free lance work if you can convince the designers the site is gibberish now. If nothing else, maybe you can get the sense of what those mysterious dishes are for us.

[bleudauvergne]

I post a link to an interesting discussion of menus and their language here.

note: if a word or phrase comes up orange colored, it's most likely a link to another thread or post.

[John Talbott]

I would second Gourmet de Seize; I've been there twice in the past 18 months and found it excellent both times. I hope this is not gratuitous but I assume everyone know Lyon is one of the few cities, other than Paris, to have its own food guide which is quite good, esp in giving the provenence of the chefs. One other thought; the oyster joints in the Halle de Lyon, cours Lafayette, are terrific for a light "supper" after an adequate dejeuner. Bux notes correctly that the oysters aren't as good in non "R" months but they'll do.

[Bux]

Oysters in les halles de Lyon have been mentioned a few times on this board. I know I referred to having them on a report of one of my visits to Lyon. I seem to recall that I misspelled the name of the stall as well, but it was one I'd recognize immediately. Later, someone posted that it was the preferred place. I'm not sure on what authority that preferrence was made although it appeared as the more inviting one to us, at the time. Are there more than two oyster and seafood bars in les Halles and do you have a preferrence for one over the other(s)?

[John Talbott]

The one I recall (without my notes) is the Maison Rousseau.

[balmagowry]

"Madnesses of Injury Slice of bread and delicacies exquisite."

"Folies de Dame Tartine et Friandes Exquises."

Of course.

Folies = madness

de = of

Dame, I don't get. Usually lady, but there seems to be some technical, mechanical term in which it's used to refer to ram or rammer. I still do't get injury.

Tartine = half a baguette, or "slice of bread" that's been buttered, jammed or otherwise made into an open sandwich.

Friandes = delicacies

Exquises = exquisite.

Brilliant analysis, Bux. I have to admit I was so caught up in matching the translations to the original - linguistically, I mean - that I lost sight of the underlying effort to determine what the dishes might be!

As for the "Dame" problem, I have a feeling Andrew has provided the clue. I'd be willing to bet that the name does refer to the "Dame Tartine" character in the nursery song. It's a nursery song I don't happen to know, but its frequency in Andrew's google results suggests that I may be in the minority there. In that construction, "Dame" is used in the sense in which we would now use "Madame," but I bet that the answer to this riddle goes beyond language and lies in some known characteristic of the dame herself. How they got "injury" I'm still not certain, but until I see any evidence to the contrary I'm sticking, faute de mieux, with the theory that someone misunderstood something and translated "tort."