Risotteria

[Ron Johnson]

The second and third syllables do not rhyme with "no"

The "o" sound in Italian doesn't rhyme with "no" ?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Not that I am so expert in this but I do have some experience. Risotto is farmed in Lombardy which is the region that Milan is in. The Piemonte, which is one region west of Lombardy is a big mushroom region. So the localized version of risotto is...... It's also the region that truffles come from so you see risotto with shaved truffles as well. But to be honest, if you are actually in the region, the restaurants don't really serve risotto first and fortemost. They serve a hand made pasta called taillerins which are thin, flat, egg noodles with a thickness somewhere between a fat linguine and a thin fettucine. What is interesting about the Piemonte is that many of the same dishes appear in the Savoie which is the region in France on the other side of the Alps. If you read Madelaine Kamen's terrific book on the Savoie, you will find that there is a pasta dish called tajerins that is the French version of the same thing.

I think that all the regions in Italy have some kind of localized version of risotto. Many of them with the local specialty added. In Venice the typical risottos are squid in its ink (which makes your teeth black) and seafood. But I don't think that risotto is pervasive in any of the regions the way it is in Milan. They eat it with religious fervor there. And the flavor and texture are a different ball of wax, I should say, glop of starch, then it is anywhere else in Italy. Maybe Robert S. can add to this point as he is far more of an Italophile then I am.

[LaNiña]

For words that are in common English usage, I favor English-language pronunciations. Do you pronounce Paris par-EEH?

No, because there EXISTS an ENGLISH word, and it's Paris (par-iss). There is no English word for risotto. Just as I won't say fahn-doo, remember?

No, the o in Italian frequently does not rhyme with no. It's a considerably softer vowel.

Tosca is not toe-sca, for example. Nor is it taw-sca. Nor is it toss-sca. We just don't have that vowel in English.

[jaybee]

The second and third syllables do not rhyme with "no" - it's a softer o, and we don't have it in English.  

That's because the Italian men don't take no for an answer. And yes, when I am in Rome I'll say it as the Romans do, but when I am ordering it in Noo Yawk, I'll call it like what we here do.

ey 'enry?

[LaNiña]

That's like saying when I'm among ignorants, although I'm not one, I'll behave like one. Even though I have the ability to set an example, I will choose not to. I have the opportunity to teach, but I won't. What a great contribution to the world.

[Steve Plotnicki]

If you want to be treated well, never say risotto when you're in Italy. You just have to say riso, pronounced RHEE-ZO. I promise you if you say , "riso milanese" (pronouncing the last e as an a) or "riso con funghi" the service will improve by some large indistinguishable factor that is just one category below the locals and is offered to Americans when they seem to have taken the time to get it right and .

[LaNiña]

If you want to be treated well, never say risotto when you're in Italy. You just have to say riso, pronounced RHEE-ZO. I promise you if you say , "riso milanese" (pronouncing the last e as an a) or "riso con funghi" the service will improve by some large idistinguishable factor that Americans who understand Italian custom and tradition are offered when they seem to have taken the time to get it right and is just one category below the locals .

Steve, that's not always the case. It depends which Milanesi you're talking to. The regular guy types will use riso, but the upper class types will use risotto. And it's NEVER an a at the end of milanese - again, it's a soft e, we don't have it in English.

I have spent a great deal of time in and around Milan. Have many good friends who live there. Serious cooks and eaters.

[Fat Guy]

So if risotto isn't a word in English then what would you say is the plural of risotto?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Unless you are dining at Gualtiero Marchesi and having risotto with gold leaf on top, or something akin to that, nobody says risotto, They say riso. Risotto is saved to describe a gastronomic approach to the dish. For example, the great restaurant Scaletta used to make a risotto with blueberries. One would never call that a plate of riso. But if you are ordering a standard preparation in a tratorria like Milanese, Funghi, or Fruiti di Mare, they will only say riso. That's working-man speak. It's like cappucino. If you ask for a cappuccino they look at you like you're an American. But if you ask for "capucci" you will get better treatment.

[LaNiña]

My Italian friends who live near Milano disagree with you (just had an email exchange). People use both, usually the pattern is that regular folk use riso, and higher enders use risotto, but they're interchangeable.

Riso actually just means rice, and risotto refers to the preparation we've been discussing. But colloquially, riso can be used to mean risotto, but risotto cannot be used to mean riso. If one wants to be sure that you're ordering or referring to the preparation, one says risotto, regardless of class or place (let's say you could order either plain rice or risotto, for example). You would say risotto to be absolutely clear.

[Fat Guy]

And what do you think the plural of risotto is?

[Orik]

And what do you think the plural of risotto is?

it's falafels

[LaNiña]

And what do you think the plural of risotto is?

I'm not sure. Perhaps there is no plural - that's what I suspect. I'll ask the Italians and get back to you.

[Fat Guy]

You don't have to ask your Italian friends, because it's a word in English. That's why if you look in Merriam-Webster or American Heritage you'll see that the plural of this English word is risottos. In Italian I'm sure it would be risotti.

[Wilfrid]

Beside the point, Fat Bloke.* There are all kinds of debatable questions about how to transpose foreign words and names into English; I just raised a very simply question about pronunciation.

Sorry to have abandoned you to all that, Nina. I think I agree with everything you have said, but I take a slightly less stern line. The simplest way to approximate a correct pronunciation of "risotto" without sounding like you are pretending to be an Italian is to make the middle 'o' short (as in otter) not long (as in Romeo). An easy thing to do, which is why I wondered what stops many Americans from doing it.

*And how do you pronounce either "risottos" or "risotti"? Are you implying that the correct English pronunication of "risotto" has a long second 'o'? - sorry this is all out of sequence. If that is going to be your argument, I am going to be looking for examples of plain-and-simple English words where the 'o' is followed by a double 't', yet nevertheless is a long vowel.

Not, for example: otter, plotter, totter, rotter, or any others I can think of.

[LaNiña]

FG, I don't care what an English dictionary says about risotto. It's not English. I'm not sure, but I bet Orik's point is well taken (falafels). In Italian, I'm guessing, it's probably due piatti di risotto, rather than due risotti. But I'll find out.

Wilfrid my darling - why is pronouncing it correctly "pretending to be Italian?"

Also, Americans pronounce otter like ah-ter, so that doesn't work.

[Wilfrid]

Nina, there's a difference between sticking to the correect vowel sounds - which I endorse - and adopting Italian vocal mannerisms - which I don't. All a matter of degree.

Cross posting:

"Also, Americans pronounce otter like ah-ter, so that doesn't work."

It would be a big improvement if you took the American vowel sound at the beginning of otter and used it instead of the silly long 'o' with which they currently adorn "risotto".

[SobaAddict70]

if this were risotto alla milanese, don't forget the introduction of beef marrow (at least one version that I've seen has marrow in the preparation of the dish).

other risotti/risottos begin with soffritto, in particular risotto nero (made with squid ink), so as you can see, its not always riso, brodo, cheese and saffron.

but what do I know? I'm just an Asian wannabe Italophile.

SA

[LaNiña]

Nina, there's a difference between sticking to the correect vowel sounds - which I endorse - and adopting Italian vocal mannerisms - which I don't.  All a matter of degree.

There's a very, very fine line between the two.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Nina - Read my post again. I didn't say you can't say risotto, I said if you just say riso they will treat you better. It has nothing to do with formalities and everything to do with being able to converse informally. If you say riso, everyone knows you are talking about risotto. It's like asking for a slice, no need to say "of pizza." But of course if I was at the grand ball and was seated between Gianni Agnelli and Catherine di Medici, then I wouldn't think of saying anything but risotto. But if I was in Milan and wanted two plates of risotto, I would say "due riso." I promise you that will get you the best results.

[Fat Guy]

Wilfrid: Yes, there are debates about it, which is why those who insist on emulating foreign pronunciations shouldn't act as though they're performing God's mission. The dictionaries we use in America accept the American pronunciation of risotto (the American Heritage is quite ecumenical and accepts three pronunciations), so nobody is an ignoramus for saying it that way. Indeed, my experience among even educated Americans is that when a word has a widely used American pronunciation that has been codified in dictionaries the person who insists on foreign pronunciation just seems odd. I know exactly how to pronounce risotto in Milan and I also know exactly how my friends in Venice pronounce it (and it sounds different each way), but you won't find me rolling my "r"s in an conversation in English with other English-speakers.

[Blue Heron]

I think that all the regions in Italy have some kind of localized version of risotto. Many of them with the local specialty added.

In Parma we enjoyed a memorable plate of risotto w/ shaved white truffles and of course grated parmesan (I don't remember what they called it though).

[LaNiña]

Plots, I understand what you're saying. I'm just saying that *sometimes* a confusion could occur if there is both riso *and* risotto on a menu. Then you'd want to say risotto to be clear.

FG, I do roll my r's slightly when I say risotto. Because it's a foreign word that I'm able to pronounce correctly. And I would be condescending not to do so, in my book. I'm not saying I roll my r's like a diesel engine, but a little.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Are words pronounced correctly just because there is a widely used mispronunciation of the word? I mean that is the way your last response reads. If enough people pronounced "Champs-Elysees" exactly the way it was written, like the word champion, would that make it a correct pronunciation? And I think this is wholly different then a different pronunciation for a local accent or dialect like Milanese vs Venetian. The pronunciation of tra-tor-rea is wrong no matter who pronounces it that way. The correct pronunciation is tra-toe-rea. But the Heritage Dictionary seems to differ with my astute observation .

[Fat Guy]

Paris.