Unoaked Chardonnay vs. Riesling

[Don Giovanni]

Chardonnay and Riesling have the same parent so

This got me to thinking is Riesling's new discovery due to the over oaked Chard craze that went bust... I have posted the stats with a link in a previous post on Chard for you stat sticklers... IIRC 70% who tasted unoaked loved it because the were an ABC'er before. Now with Riesling in short plantings in the US if the new trend to go naked and not use oak with Chard then this just might fill the bill...as more people want domestic Riesling maybe the substitute wine will become naked Chard.

With this fact that I found in "The Oxford Companion to Wine, 3rd Edition: Books: Jancis Robinson"

The fact that Riesling and Chardonnay both share a parent Gouais Blanc........

How many knew Chardonnay was Gouais Blanc x Pinot Noir

They have researchers, and some others have even nicknamed it the ‛Casanova of grape'

[dinwiddie]

It reminds me of a restaurant where I once worked as a bartender. A youngish (mid 20s?) woman came in and in a very condesending voice asked for a white wine "But not a chardonney, I hate chardonney". He suggested that the young lady try a Chablis. The response "Wow this is wonderful, I'll have to remember to ask for it from now on."

[Don Giovanni]

It reminds me of a restaurant where I once worked as a bartender.  A youngish (mid 20s?) woman came in and in a very condesending voice asked for a white wine "But not a chardonney, I hate chardonney".  He suggested that the young lady try a Chablis.  The response "Wow this is wonderful, I'll have to remember to ask for it from now on."

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Nice one I love it....Chablis...yep that will work..lol

TY

[Sneakeater]

I'm so old I remember when that grape was always called Pinot Chardonnay.

[JohnL]

Most white Burgundy is "oaked" chardonnay.

Maybe someone should tell them to switch to stainless steel and ride the wave!

[MaxH]

Didn't know about the Gouais cross; per Sneakeater, old name "Pinot Chardonnay" was common in California, it's in books and I still have a bottle label with that phrase circa 1970. (There are other obsolete "Pinot" names too.)

... Riesling's new discovery due to the over oaked Chard craze that went bust...

This business of US market discovering Riesling is interesting. It has gotten some press. But wine writers have been crowing about Riesling's merits at least since Sainstbury, nearly 100 years ago in his classic wine-consumer guide (Notes on a Cellar-Book). The world wars produced many laments; among the very minor ones were that the beautiful unique German and Alsatian Rieslings were unavailable.

Most white Burgundy is "oaked" chardonnay.  Maybe someone should tell them to switch to stainless steel and ride the wave!

JohnL's steel may be alloyed with irony. Some fine C.-de-Beaunes are matured for oak flavors, but it is atypical of Burgundy. In Chablis "the most authentic style is the 'unoaked' wine" (Stevenson's encyclopedia) while in the Mâconnais, making three fourths of the white wine in Burgundy, steel rules. If anything it's they who created the wave of interest in unoaked!

[primowino]

Well said MaxH.

Whenever I want someone to try an unoaked or lightly oaked chardonnay to contrast the stuff they don't like, I nearly always choose something from the Maconnais. I'm actually doing that tonight in a tasting with a Saint Veran.

[JohnL]

Max

I should have said most grand and premier cru white Burgundy is "oaked."

The whole oak issue is annoying to me (as if you couldn't tell).

First the "anything but chardonnay" movement was in no small way founded in wine snobbery.

What happens is the snobs start by drinking chardonnay then tire of it and "discover" something else--in this case it was sauvignon blanc. great! But the snobs then like to denegrate those who have not yet "discovered" that the chardonnay they drink is passe.

The sauvignon blanc thing is now passe and the new buzz wine is--riesling!

(there was a brief interlude with Gruner Veltliner)

In the red category it is amazing that Merlot may become "hip" again!

The oak "thing" is also a snob driven issue for the most part. The fact is oak and chardonnay work extremely well together.

Some of the chardonnay wines considered by consensus to be among the greatest in the world see plenty of oak.

What we are really talking about is the level of recognizable oak flavors in a wine.

Oak can impart many flavors that are a result of interaction with the fruit beyond the basic vanilla/vanillin notes. It is not just a "flavoring." The issue is an individual's taste.

Also--there is a tendency to gloss over the nuances of the issue--new oak, old oak combinations etc.

Bad chardonnay is bad chardonnay regardless of whether it has seen oak or not. There are any number of lousy under ripe overly simple unoaked wines from the Macconais!

The basic truth is there are wonderful examples of both oaked and unoaked chardonnay. Some people have a preference and others who are really lucky appreciate both styles.

By the way, the tendency to denegrate the use of oak is interesting. These people usually like to cast their aspersions mostly at the US choosing to ignore Spain (where loads of new oak is a tradition) for eg.

Just like the people who look down on higher alcohol levels usually focus on US and Australian wines (they rarely criticize Amarone's).

Interestingly there are snobs who like to look down on Americans whose palates they believe prefer overly sweet wines --we were raised on Coke!

Mention those kendall Jackson chardonnays that have a bit of residual sugar and they are aghast! Well what about all those Rieslings produced in Germany and Alsace with plenty of residual sugar?

what about the fact that we Americans who have these awful preferences for sweet s have not taken to sweet wines like rieslings and dessert wines etc.?

Anyway, I am not addressing anyone here specifically but getting back to the oak issue let's remember that as I noted earlier--it's not the oak so much as the quality of the fruit and how the use or non use of oak impacts it. Oak and chardonnay have a very special affinity for each other and when a good wine maker has good materials to work with the resulting wine oaked or unoaked will be something special.

Let's also remember that if we are talking about an inexpensive simple wine from simple healthy fruit then it is a matter of taste as to whether that fruit sees oak or stainless steel or concrete/cement or....

One wine oaked is not better or worse that a similar wine unoaked.

I happen to like each style (depends on what I am in the mood for).

[MaxH]

the "anything but chardonnay" movement was in no small way founded in wine snobbery.

It is possible to express a conclusion like that and then elaborate on the conclusion. My personal preference (as if you couldn't tell) is to research the objective data -- for instance about white Burgundies and wood -- then argue from the data.

Maybe the conclusion above has some basis (I can't tell from the posting). It does contradict my own experience, admittedly more with food-wine enthusiasts than the larger wine market. I can testify that most people I've witnessed preferring less oaky wines did so because they liked them better, even blind. (In fact, many of these people felt so 25 years ago, when the flood of stylistically narrow, me-too California Chardonnays, which many of us know all too well, lapped over the Americas -- wine writers were complaining of it even then). I can testify too that most of you would not characterize the people I know as "snobs," if you knew them too.

[JohnL]

The "basis" is simple. As in the original post that started this thread the topic of oak is oversimplified.

The "over oaked" chardonnay craze has not gone "bust"--it was never a "craze" to begin with.

The wine snob aspect comes into play when certain people lump wines into categories: oaked vs unoaked and make a sweeping value judgment that one is "better" than the other. Most often this is done with the side effect of denigrating those who drink or prefer chardonnay that is oaked.

It is interesting to me that few people complain about the sea of unoaked chardonnay that exists. Low end simple and poorly made wines that abound. I recently had a chablis that was so unripe and acidic as to remove the enamel from one's teeth. This wine is no better (or worse) than a poorly made simple oak flavored chardonnay. (though the oak flavored wine is less painful to drink).

Not every Macon white is a good wine any more than every California chardonnay is a bad wine. (or vice verse).

Riesling and its popularity or lack thereof has little to do with chardonnay. Riesling is an aromatic grape varietal that stands on its own more readily than chardonnay (not aromatic). Hence the use of oak --and let's discriminate between oak aging and fermentation in oak--in chardonnay more so than with Riesling.

By the way oak use in Burgundy is prevalent in the Cote d' Or and has grown steadily in Chablis. You were correct about the Macconais but let's remember the Maconnais is staunchly hanging on to their tradition as well as the fact that most of these wines are meant to sell at the low end (oak can be expensive). In chablis the raw materials (the grapes) are often much better in quality and while Stevenson is correct in noting the "authenticity" of the unoaked chablis --there is a bit of snobbery in his selection of the term authentic. As in the case of every wine the use or non use of oak has nothing to do with quality. The "authenticity" thing is also a bit of a stretch. There is authentic and there is tradition. Again a reminder that neither term has anything to do with quality.

I would certainly not agree that there is anything "atypical" regarding use of oak for fermentation and/or aging in Burgundy.

You note that the Maconnaise "created" the "wave of interest in unoaked chardonnay." There is no evidence to support this. In fact the Maconnaise has struggled to survive in large part because most of the wines are of low or poor quality made by indifferent cooperatives from high yield grapes. One can cull a few producers who are making some very fine wines but for the most part the Macon has played a relatively small role on the international market. In fact, the non use of oak in the Maconnaise has more to do with cost of production etc than with some belief that use of oak in Maconnaise wines would result in lesser quality. Co-ops are less likely to use expensive barrels in wine making.

The wave of interest in unoaked wine you cite is arguably not a "wave." It is the result of more choice on the global market. It is a fact that today people simply have more options on the shelves of their local wine shop.

In fact, the general consensus would be that the vast majority of those wines red and white deemed the world's finest wines (even by Mr Stevenson) have "seen" some oak.

So I would argue that each wine should be taken on its own merits or lack thereof.

Oak or no oak.

[chromedome]

FWIW, speaking as a non-snob who's spent the last few years laying a foundation for understanding wine...

When I started drinking my way through the major 6-10 varietals in both white and red, I found many references to Chardonnay as arguably the white-wine world's heaviest hitter, a chameleon grape that could be vinted in numerous styles while retaining a full and robust character. Impressed, I tried several different styles of Chard over a period of a couple of years.

Initially, I have to say, I was unimpressed. I found the majority of the chardonnays I tasted to be cloying and unpleasant, to the point that I was reluctant even to use them in a sauce. Yet, others were clean and crisp and lacked the characteristics that I found repellent. Eventually I came to recognize the key adjectives on the label...anything "malic," "toasty," "buttery," or - God forbid - "butterscotchy notes" - meant a Chardonnay that would be destined for the kitchen sink. French Chardonnays, or "French-style" on a label, meant something that I would find drinkable.

Upon further investigation, I discovered that the chards I disliked were invariably oaked, while the ones I disliked were invariably unoaked. Now, bear in mind that my budget has been sharply limited, with $20-$25CDN marking the upper reaches of my spending. I am open, therefore, to the notion that oaked chardonnays become more drinkable when you get into the higher quality/higher price ranges. I've found a number of good wines from other varietals in my price range though, so I don't think I'm likely to make the effort very often.

Just my two cents, offered up by a novice who doesn't give a flying f**k what's trendy at a given time...

[JohnL]

FWIW, speaking as a non-snob who's spent the last few years laying a foundation for understanding wine...

When I started drinking my way through the major 6-10 varietals in both white and red, I found many references to Chardonnay as arguably the white-wine world's heaviest hitter, a chameleon grape that could be vinted in numerous styles while retaining a full and robust character.  Impressed, I tried several different styles of Chard over a period of a couple of years.

Initially, I have to say, I was unimpressed.  I found the majority of the chardonnays I tasted to be cloying and unpleasant, to the point that I was reluctant even to use them in a sauce.  Yet, others were clean and crisp and lacked the characteristics that I found repellent.  Eventually I came to recognize the key adjectives on the label...anything "malic," "toasty," "buttery," or - God forbid - "butterscotchy notes" - meant a Chardonnay that would be destined for the kitchen sink.  French Chardonnays, or "French-style" on a label, meant something that I would find drinkable.

Upon further investigation, I discovered that the chards I disliked were invariably oaked, while the ones I disliked were invariably unoaked.  Now, bear in mind that my budget has been sharply limited, with $20-$25CDN marking the upper reaches of my spending.  I am open, therefore, to the notion that oaked chardonnays become more drinkable when you get into the higher quality/higher price ranges.  I've found a number of good wines from other varietals in my price range though, so I don't think I'm likely to make the effort very often.

Just my two cents, offered up by a novice who doesn't give a flying f**k what's trendy at a given time...

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You are more typical of most wine drinkers than even the industry would like to think.

Your road to discovering what you like or dislike was basically trial and error and you are also proof that typical wine drinkers are not "sheep" that are led around by scores or fads or crazes and worse will drink wines they do not like because of said scores or critics or fads.

Chardonnay comes in many styles and use of oak is just one factor in how a chardonnay will taste. A wine's quality is not determined by oak or no oak it is determined by how the wine tastes.

In wines where the starting material, the grapes, are not of high quality, oak has been used to mask or to flavor the wine resulting in wines that are not very good but may be pleasant to drink for people who like the flavors the oak imparts.

On the other hand, there are numerous examples of wines made from less than decent quality grapes that are vinified in stainless steel or cement or whatever and never stored in oak. These wines are equally bad and are pleasant to drink by people who like thin highly acidic wines.

In the real world, people have preferences. There is often no black or white but gradations of gray. There are different levels of quality in oaked and unoaked wines at all price levels. Like you, I believe most people will find what they like with a bit of trial and error and some guidance.

By the way, what are some of these chardonnays you do like?

[MaxH]

Thanks for the thoughtful comments, chromedome.

... laying a foundation for understanding wine... I found the majority of the chardonnays ... cloying and unpleasant, to the point that I was reluctant even to use them in a sauce.  Yet, others were clean and crisp and lacked the characteristics that I found repellent. ... Upon further investigation, I discovered that the chards I disliked were invariably oaked, while the ones I disliked were invariably unoaked.

Please note that this behavior (the same I witnessed and reported above) is embraced under "snobbery" and "denigration" upthread. You and I though (and others, I think) know the reality we experienced.

FYI datawise: First, complaint of US oaky Chardonnay "craze" is one point in this thread not projected from an armchair. It's a summary of comments I read widely in US wine writing (which I have a pretty good memory for -- remember? -- and originals too), early 1980s. US retail market was then sustaining unexpected USD $20-$25 prices for fairly heavy yellow Chardonnays matching chromedome's description (= circa $50 in current USD) and literally hundreds were coming to market. Strong prices bespoke consumer demand.

Secondly, Mâcon-Villages from major négociants (Jadot, Drouhin, etc.) are among most widely distributed moderately-priced white French wines worldwide. I've seen them in wine shops in Europe, Asia, and all over North America (including at most supermarkets I've checked in California, around $10-$12). They likely are many people's introduction to white Burgundies. I cite this in the interest of accuracy. These wines have been common in the US for the 30 years I've watched, longer than most US wineries have made unoaked Chardonnays, hence the obvious historical sequencing I quipped earlier. (I honestly wasn't sure then if the assertion "Most white Burgundy is 'oaked' Chardonnay" was at all serious, in view of the history of California Chards being so often oakier.)

[JohnL]

No it is not "embraced" as snobbery.

By me at least. I clearly indicated that finding one enjoys a certain style of wine is not snobbish. What is snobbery is to look down on anyone who happens to like a style of wine in opposition to what you like. Let's not confuse quality and style either.

The examples you have cited are the best of the lot. Drouhin and Jadot (and some others) have offered good examples of these simple whites. The truth is the vast majority of them Macon whites (not fit for export) are pretty lousy wines. France is in the middle of an attempt to make their everyday table wines better quality wise so they can compete on the world market.

Right now, it is Italy that is doing a much better job in this area.

as for California, well we taste the good and the bad. It is easy to stereotype based upon our limited experience. The fact is we do not taste more than a miniscule number of wines from the Macon, they never reach our shores. Making sweeping statements about them based on what we see here is simply inaccurate. Jadot and Drouhin have done a good job sorting things out for us.

Oak is not inherently good or bad where wine is concerned.

I would also point out that traditionally--or historically--at one time all Macon wines (also all chablis) were kept in barrels and or vinified in wood! That's how wine was stored prior to the emergence of stainless steel tanks.

Lucky for me, I enjoy pretty much all styles of wine.

All I am saying is well made examples of crisp Macon blancs are wonderful but so are rounder buttery chardonnays (from anywhere).

You may prefer one over the other, I like em both.