mudbug
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Higher quality Sichuan peppercorns have the hard black seed removed.
Learn more:
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"I’m originally from Hong Kong, and my grandma and mom both steam their chickens for 白切雞. They salt the outside and inside, and steam. For a prettier chicken you can rub salt over the skin in a circular motion to exfoliate the skin first. Then we either use a ice bath or rub sesame oil over the chicken for aroma.
The poached chicken meat is more tender and soft. Steaming + ice bath makes the meat and skin more bouncy and chewy, which is my preference.
We have never served the chicken pink - with the ice bath the breasts are fully cooked and still juicy. I think part of it is using a chicken which isn’t too big - we normally buy a free range chicken for 白切雞."
Three generations of home cooking experience. I trust that.
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4 hours ago, heidih said:
No local rock crab types that are always around and not protected by a season and are kinda cheap?
Looks like they can be fished but you'd have to do more research on when/where and the regulations.
A source to purchase:
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5 hours ago, Katie Meadow said:
Oakland Chinatown. There is a fish market on 8th st between Franklin and Webster that had good prices and live crab tanks. It is a couple of doors down from a good Chinese pastry place. I confess that I have not bought live crabs for several years. The local crab season here has been in big trouble for a while, and the price of crab is high during the season, if indeed there is a season. And in addition to that, I also admit that I have become quite squeamish in my old age and the idea of dropping a live critter into boiling water gives me the willies.
Yuen Hop is the noodle factory and large store. That's on Webster between 8th and 9th. Sometimes their noodles can be found at Berkeley Bowl and Tokyo Market, but not reliably. All their extruded fresh wheat noodles and wonton and dumpling wrappers are excellent and come in a great variety of sizes and thicknesses.
For roast duck to-go I like Best Taste on Franklin. I haven't tried any other places for whole or half a duck in years, but there are so many places that could easily be good. Also on Franklin is Tian Jin, the dumpling window. Decent dumplings and sweet little walk-up window. If you don't make your own dumplings it's an option. Mine are better!
Ah, wonderful! Thank you. I'll save this for next time I'm in Oakland and make the rounds. I hear you on the live crab. "Here's an old trick: Put the crab in the freezer for 15-20 minutes. This does not freeze it, or affect the quality, but it does put it in a sleep/dormant/numb state, so that there is no kicking when you put it in the boiling water."
I'd love to try your dumplings sometime. ; )
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Ah, reminds me of De Buyer by the looks. Also made in France.
https://www.francecorner.com/cook/2018-de-buyer-affinity-wok.html
This one is less pricey, comes with lid and wok spatula:
https://www.amazon.com/Souped-Up-Recipes-Induction-Seasoning/dp/B07RJ39JVL
You may find this more recent article of interest:
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On 7/28/2020 at 8:22 AM, Katie Meadow said:
When I first moved to the Bay Area I lived just off Clement. I have no idea what it's like these days, although those restaurants that specialized in Dungeness Crab are still going strong I think, but in those days (the late 70's) there was a bountiful mix of Chinese and Russian Orthodox restaurants and groceries. My next move in SF was to the border of the Stockton/Grant Chinatown. I lived right over the cable car tracks. I ate a LOT of Chinese food.
When I moved across the bridge to Oakland I had to drive to Oakland Chinatown for supplies. Been doing that since the mid-80's and have my routine down: my favorite groceries, the place I get my roast duck, the place for live crab, the best pork buns, the best fresh noodles, and so on. I am still on strict self imposed lockdown, so things are different now. No duck. No street food. Just the basics for stir fry. The thing I miss most is the variety of fresh noodles: three different thicknesses of potsticker or wonton wrappers and all sizes of fresh extruded wheat noodles. And no, I'm not about to make my own noodles or skins. That ship has sailed.
Where do/did you find your live crab Katie?
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On 1/25/2019 at 10:09 PM, SusieQ said:
Hello all, I need help figuring out which part of the sichuan peppercorns I bought to use. From what I've read, I think I'm supposed to use the hulls rather than the black seeds. Toast the hulls and grind them up, correct? This is for use in my fave dish, mapo tofu. Thanks for your help!(Well, that didn't work. I guess I don't know how to upload a photo. Nuts. Maybe I don't need a photo? Maybe just tell me whether to use the hulls or the black seeds, or both?)
You can do either or both, it depends on your personal palate and what your preference is. Sometimes the seeds can be too grainy for certain dishes that are more delicate in texture.
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On 7/24/2020 at 5:25 AM, liuzhou said:
It's OK as it goes and would be reasonably tasty, but would never pass muster in Xi'an. Anyway, as said above it's not a dish people make at home.
And even in Xi'an it's mainly for the tourists.I love to make this at home, and have personally introduced the technique to many friends (and their friends) at their homes. They now share the technique with others. It doesn't take that long to do and everyone truly has fun making it and eating it.
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1 hour ago, dcarch said:
Also, let's be clear about steaming.
Water evaporates into steam when boiled at 212F+. But that does not mean that the food being steamed is actually be cooked at 212F. It all depends on other factors.
What you see "steam" is not steam. Steam is not visible. You are in fact seeing water droplets in the air which are already below 212F.
dcarch
Yes, there would be an initial dip upon adding the chicken to the pot, but it's not like lowering the temperature of a large pot of water and waiting for that water to heat back up to boiling. The time and energy required are far less with steaming. As well as maintenance. Steam for 15 minutes, turn off heat, do not remove lid, sit for 20 (give or take depending on size of bird).
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"The skin on white cut chicken is very soft."
It doesn't have to be. For those who have access to ice cubes or ice packs to make a very cold water bath to constrict the skin, this can make for a crunchy (not crispy) skin. As discussed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkJN9Hy9rsM
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8 hours ago, Duvel said:
I usually use 64 oC for 2.5-3h for chicken breast. Sometimes I go below that, temperaturewise.Presalting the skin helps with the texture, as does removing the breast from the bag and plunging it directly into the ice water.
QuoteAt 165°F (74°C) all foodborne bacteria are destroyed instantly. ... Even if a slow, low-accuracy dial thermometer is off by as much as 10°F (6°C), a final cooked temperature of 155°F (68°C) in chicken will only need to stay at that temperature for just under 60 seconds in order for the meat to be safe. —https://blog.thermoworks.com/chicken/bloody_chicken/#:~:text=At 165°F (74,foodborne bacteria are destroyed instantly.&text=Even if a slow%2C low,the meat to be safe.Since you do lower in temp and enjoy what you make, keep doing it!
Why boiled chicken is.bad:
https://www.chefdarin.com/2011/04/why-boiled-chicken-is-bad/
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Steaming is the better way to preserve the flavor of the chicken as it will not lose to the poaching water.
On the other hand, poach the chicken will yield more tender meat since it is cooked at the sub-boiling point.
Perhaps my question has been answered here however steaming is a more consistent gentle heat than poaching and doesn't dilute the flavor into the water so it seems an experiment is in order. https://tasteasianfood.com/chinese-steamed-chicken
Quote'Steaming is an even gentler method of cooking than poaching, because the ingredients don’t come into direct contact with the cooking medium or heat source. Curiously, steaming actually cooks food at higher temperatures than poaching, which means it seals in the flavour and results in a wonderfully tender and moist texture. With ingredients like fish or poultry, the heat also renders out some of the natural fats, but recycle their natural flavour back into the food. Steaming has the added advantage of keeping more of the vitamins and minerals in the foods themselves, rather than leaching them out into the cooking water."
Thoughts: start with the highest quality organic chicken allowed to free range and process it yourself if possible for optimum inherent flavor, poach and use ice bath for to tighten skin so it's crunchy (not crispy since it's not fried). Preferred chicken: 16 week old "wong mo gai" (Cantonese), "huang mao ji" in Mandarin, more mature, more flavorful. Not bred for breast size.
Consider a side by side experiment with one poached and one steamed chicken to see what the differences are with the meat.
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7 hours ago, weinoo said:
My reference to removing the skin to make it wonderful was more of a little light-heartedness. And it's so much better crisped up in the oven.
There's no need to use an oven to make crispy, chip like chicken skin. A little peanut oil or rice bran oil (or your favorite frying oil) in the bottom of a wok will do the trick. Dry the chicken skin, lightly fry util crisp, sprinkle with salt and MSG. DELISH and oven free.
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7 hours ago, weinoo said:
My reference to removing the skin to make it wonderful was more of a little light-heartedness. And it's so much better crisped up in the oven.
There's no need to use an oven to make crispy, chip like chicken skin. A little peanut oil or rice bran oil (or your favorite frying oil) in the bottom of a wok will do the trick. Dry the chicken skin, lightly fry util crisp, sprinkle with salt and MSG. DELISH and oven free.
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21 hours ago, dcarch said:
There is an important consideration, you must use a free range (true free range, not a legal "cage free" ) chicken.
Supermarket chickens have too much fat under the skin to give you the proper skin texture end result. Supermarket chicken do not have the flavor as free range chickens.
dcarch
Yes, of course a high quality chicken from your favorite local organic farm at the most appropriate maturity is ideal. Also the way the chicken is de-feathered can make a difference. My understanding based on other's experience is that done by hand, the skin can be more yellow. What a chicken eats can influence skin color. And certain varieties of chickens can have more yellow skin.
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18 hours ago, liuzhou said:
That would work, but very few people in China have ovens and anyway aren't looking for crisp skin.
I disagree, people appreciate diversity in texture, especially when it's well executed. They don't need to know why or how, and it can be subtle, but they don't need to know, the cook/chef knows how they did it. As in this video, their crunchy skin is what sets them apart and raises them to the upper echelon of this dish. "The most authentic white sliced chicken in Guangzhou" Award winning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkJN9Hy9rsM
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On 8/14/2020 at 10:54 PM, liuzhou said:
I'd also add that, although the actual cooking time may only be ten minutes or so, it takes around a couple of days to make the dish correctly. Can't see many home cooks doing that.
With COVID-19 and people staying at home more, more people have time to plan ahead and enjoy the process. Most of our friends and family enjoy planning ahead, whether it be dry aging meat for weeks, fermenting foods or drinks, growing the plants from seed, etc.
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7 hours ago, Duvel said:
Not traditional, but for Hanainese chicken (a more downstream version of white cut chicken) I sous vide the meat (usually skin-on breast meat) with the poaching aromatics in the bag, followed by cooling in ice water. Gives very consistent and satisfying results without any guess work. And can be applied to boneless chicken parts, which for family meals I prefer.
Regarding the „crunchy“ texture of the skin: best results are obtained if you are able to cool very quickly, to „fixate“ the gelatinous skin fast. So, ice water will produce the best results. Using a freezer will take significantly longer (as air is a poor heat transmission medium). Even more so basting with cooking wine, which - at merely 15% alcohol - doesn’t really speed up the evaporation significantly. It might contribute on the flavor side, but unlikely give you a nicely crunchy skin. Ice water, blotting dry and applying some sesame oil is how I prefer this preparation ...
Ah, we prefer bone in. (Meat without bones is boring to me.) On the ice bath, thank you. yes, makes sense. And on the cooking wine adding flavor, that's what they say here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GADCrcagFh0
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10 hours ago, liuzhou said:
As I've said already, White Cut Chicken is not steamed. That would negate the whole point. And no one uses Shaoxing wine. That would not be White Cut Chicken as it is known. And I've already said that it isn't meant to have crunchy skin - that is not what's wanted.
(It's not called shauxing wine. It comes from the city of Shaoxing, hence the name.)
You asked for information, but seem determined to ignore it.
I'm not ignoring it, I simply disagree based on the information I presented in my original post. With all due respect, you seem to have not watched any of the videos I provided (many of which from China) which directly contradict your statement "And no one uses Shaoxing wine". The source is a very well respected authority on Chinese Cooking for the content they offer.
As for , it may not be called Shaoxing wine where you are. But for the westerners, the term is ubiquitous for the product which is a type of Chinese rice wine that hails from Shaoxing, a city in China’s Zhejiang Province (I do agree with you on this point).
Your context may be different in terms of historical authenticity of technique, however you provided no online references or documentation (in English) to support your context. And cooking is an ever evolving phenomena with humans who can absolutely find better techniques to achieve the same (or better) goals—as time, tools, technique and knowledge grow and evolve over time. There can absolutely be ways to improve on classic dishes while maintaining the integrity of the end goal.
Steaming is a legitimate heat source, as well as a more uniform heat rather than plunging into boiling water where the temp of the water will go down, then having to bring it to a boiling temperature again before turning the heat off in order to poach. See first two video links provided in original post.
If you feel that steaming is not legitimate, then please explain why in terms of meat texture, skin texture, etc. Because when I say steaming, I do not mean overcooking. I mean pick meat that is juicy, succulent, tender.
As another example, the best way to boil an egg is to not boil the egg. Bring water to a boil, then turn the heat off to use the residual heat to cook the eggs. Science has found that steaming is by far the most stable, and efficient in terms of time and energy (a little water takes less time to boil).
How to Boil the Perfect Egg - The New York Times by Kenji López-Alt (who has decades of experience as a food scientist)
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/23/dining/how-to-hard-boil-eggs.html
I'd appreciate open-minded and nurturing responses rather than being shut down at every turn without context other than I said so. When it is obvious you didn't take the time to watch the videos in my original post before responding.
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14 hours ago, weinoo said:
Take the skin off in as big pieces as possible, and crisp them up separately in the oven?!
I'm not looking for baked crunchy skin. If you watch the last video in my original post, you'll learn that they have perfected a cold bath to tighten up the skin to make it cruncy (while not cooking again).
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13 hours ago, liuzhou said:
Is it?
Not in many Chinese kitchens. Most people don't have the equipment. You can't cook a whole, submerged chicken in a domestic wok, which is all many homes have. A wok and a rice cooker is all most people have.
I don't have a pan large enough and I'm not going to buy one just for something I might cook once a year. Especially when I can buy the dish so easily, if I choose. But if I did buy a suitable pan, where would I keep it? Chinese home kitchens tend to be smaller than what you may be used to.
Also. it uses a lot of water. Once to cover the chicken to poach, then for the ice bath which also has to cover the bird. Where do I get that much ice?
I'm not saying no one makes it, but few do. I don't think any of my friends do.
Did you look at any of the videos I linked to? You can totally do this by steaming (very little water). And I refer to the shauxing wine method to replace the ice water bath which imparts more flavor but does not have as crunchy a skin.
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"I have just gone through my collection of Chinese language cookbooks. Not one has a recipe; it is not often cooked in domestic kitchens. Even at those family dinners, it is bought in pre-cooked."
That's interesting, since it is really so easy for home cooks to make.
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I know there are multiple ways to achieve the goal of delicious, succulent chicken that is brought to 155˚F for food safety to kill bacteria. And that meat temp will rise after pulling from heat.I love eating White Cut Chicken that is made for special occasions in certain parts of China.Learning about poaching chicken can be life changing for people who don't know about it. Sooo much better than boiling which results in gristly meat.For flavor, salt the skin overnight. Add ginger, scallions, shauxing wine, salt to the cavity before cooking. For poaching all kinds of aromatics can be added to the poaching liquid. I'm not afraid of pink meat since I know food safety is based on temperature, not color, as so many westerners are conditioned to think. I want my meat to melt in my mouth.My main question is: Does anyone have feedback, based on personal experience about the differences between poaching, steaming, or sautéing in terms of skin texture results?I know that you can cool the skin by plunging in ice water bath (restaurant method) or by basing in shauxing wine (alcohol evaporates and cools the skin while imparting flavor) which can also heavily influence skin texture (more crunchy with ice water finish). Seems putting it in a freezer right away to cool the skin would be most effective for crunchy skin, how would this be different than ice water? Ice water would be easier if one does not have freezer space. And there are people who don't have freezers to make ice, hence the shauxing wine method.Before commenting, please note that all three methods are legitimate in their own right. Sautéing would take the most maintenance, but seems it would be the most flavorful. I haven't tried steaming, but it seems to be the most efficient in terms of energy, water, and least amount of maintenance in terms of attention.I don't speak Chinese, so anyone who does, your feedback is appreciated with regard to videos, see the following examples for reference:Poached:Chinese Cooking Demystified: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GADCrcagFh0Master's Dishes·White Sliced Chicken: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwTUIJlTX7kSteamed:KP Kwan's Chinese steamed chicken: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJeuCQb4_9A / https://tasteasianfood.com/chinese-steamed-chicken/Sautéd:letscookchinesefood [Hong Kong] :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hn8ZXLuEHMNot over-boiled? Doesn't seem poached:"The most authentic white sliced chicken in Guangzhou" Award winning (don't know recipe, pink bone, succulent, looks delish): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkJN9Hy9rsMHow to make Hong Kong-Style Poached Chicken: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otFJqZXsu_M
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On 10/17/2019 at 10:55 AM, Anna N said:
it’s much more difficult when the principal is no longer present.
I would say "challenging", but also not reason enough to end a great discussion. People go through phases, society and culture change, individuals come and go, and sometimes come back again (if they haven't passed away). But the discussion about food can, and should — last over lifetimes.
*wink*
Chinese Pickles and Preserves
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"Why anyone would buy the above two, is beyond me"
Because depending on where you are in the world, not everything that is on "display" as "fresh" is fresh.
As with farmed produce, flash frozen can often be more fresh than what you see in the produce section due to processing, transportation, storage, display time, handling, etc.
Flash frozen is standard and often required even for Japanese chefs to ensure freshness and safety unless of course you are at the Tsukiji Market in Japan.