arkestra

I concur. I was there only once several years ago and the food was unremarkable.

A little anecdote. I was in NYC a few weeks ago for the marathon and a group of Italian runners was staying at my hotel. One morning I asked a group of them if they had found a good espresso anywhere, and they just shrugged. Later that day, I went to the premarathon expo at the Convention Center. One of the many booths was manned by an Italian representing some marathon in Italy. I asked him the same question. His response: "In America, I drink American coffee." I won't tell you what the Italians at the hotel said about the pre-race pasta dinner...

I know the feeling. I simply ask for them to make it short and hold my thumb and index finger slightly apart to demonstrate. Once in a while, someone will respond by saying: "Ah, a ristretto." That's a hopeful sign, but the results usually disappoint. I know one person who asks places to make him a double, but run it like they're making a single.

Goodfellow's doesn't meet your price criteria. It's the most expensive restaurantin town. Bruce The most expensive restaurant in Minneapolis might not seem that expensive to someone from southern California. And - if the price range doesn't fit - appetizers and drinks at the bar are an alternative - just to see the place. Robyn I checked out Goodfellow's (or should it be Goodfellow's') website. Dinners are indeed expensive, even for someone from Southern California. (High end restaurants in So. Cal. are relatively inexpensive, when compared to places like NY or SF.) The lunch menu, however, seems quite reasonable (they even have a three-course $16 lunch to celebrate their 16th anniversary). Thanks to all who have responded so far.

Thanks Bruce. My wife will have some fun reading tonight! Robyn, thanks for the Goodfellow's recommendation. It looks like a place worth checking out.

My wife will be in Minneapolis this weekend for a conference. Can anyone recommend some restaurants where she and a colleague or two can have a nice dinner. To give you an idea what she's looking for, here are a few points: 1. Not the most expensive restaurant in town, but some decent/fairly nice places. 2. No chain restaurants. 3. No Mexican or Asian restaurants. (We live in Southern California, where they have plenty of those.) 4. No fish restaurants. My wife is highly allergic to fish, though she can eat shellfish. (Interestingly, I eat fish, but not meat, so we don't share many dishes.) 5. In terms of location, she'll be staying at the Hilton. Though she won't have a car, she's not averse to going away from that area, assuming it's not a big deal. All suggestions appreciated. Thanks in advance for your responses.

I'd love to go, but I'll be running the NY marathon that day. Enjoy!

I am guessing not many people review a restaurant they haven't been to. But I believe there is another problem -- many people simply don't remember (or care to think) when they were last at a particular place. So when the restaurant name pops up on the survey, they'll say "oh, yeah, that's a great place" or whatever, without thinking they were last there 3 years ago. A major problem with the Zagat methodology is the narrow scale they use (the article said 1 to 3). I think such a scale is designed to prevent real differences in quality from being reflected in the final results. (A scale of 1 to 10 would be much better. They could then multiple the average by 10 to produce a final score on a scale of 1 to 100.) Still, it is a useful guide and a good starting place. Besides, it's only $10 and it gives people like us something to discuss/argue about.

I think S. Irene does a great job, in part because she doesn't just write fluff pieces, but is willing to say negative things about a restaurant. (I also usually find myself in agreement with her views, so that may also account for my liking her.) I have felt, however, that over the last couple years, she seems to be more positive in her reviews and tends to give higher ratings. Is it only my imagination? (I speculated to myself that people at the paper suggested she tone things down a bit. Or perhaps she's just mellowing with age.) One reason local papers may not want to include negative reviews is that they depend on advertising from restaurants.

Yes, those "haikus"/comments are pretty worthless. I've always felt the quotes are assembled to create an overly rosy picture. Even the seemingly negative comments often create a positive image or generate interest in a restaurant (e.g., "crowded," "too cool," "waiters with attitudes," etc.). In recent years, I've also been wondering to what extent Merrill tries to select more favorable quotes for those restaurants that advertise on, or provide giveaway meals for his restaurant show/infomercial.

Actually, I think you would get somewhat more realistic ratings if people didn't get a free guide for completing the survey. That way, you would have people who care (and some who want to skew the ratings in favor of a particular restaurant).

JFLinLA answered your question about the Wed. farmers market in Santa Monica. I believe it's from about 9:00 a.m. to 2:00 or 3:00 p.m. If you're looking for organic, the Wed. farmers market in Santa Monica is the place to go. The Sat. market at the same location (from about 8:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m.) is probably the next best thing, but it is smaller than the Wed. market. The Hollywood farmers market (Sundays) also has a fair amount of organic produce. The Sun. farmers market in Santa Monica is on Main and Ocean Park. It has some organic produce, but not more than most other farmers markets. The other Saturday farmers market in Santa Monica is (or was) on Cloverfield and Pico. (I heard they moved it to the Santa Monica airport a couple months ago. I don't know if this was temporary or permanent.) It doesn't have very much organic stuff. As for markets, aside from Whole Foods, there is a decent selection of organic stuff at the Coop in Santa Monica and Erewhon on Beverly, a little east of Fairfax. If you're near a Wild Oats, you can check them out as well.

If you haven't seen today's L.A. Times food section, there is a nice (IMO) article by David Shaw about the Zagat guide. The title -- "Can you believe Zagat? Not Always" -- is probably a good description of the article's contents. Here's the link: L.A. Times article on Zagat (Note: You may have to register to view the article. There is no cost.) People may have different opinions, but I believe the article is right on. Still, like David Shaw, I buy the guide almost every year, primarily to use as telephone directory. If I really want to find out about a restaurant, I'd rather ask people on this list.

Kit, let me know if you're going to be there at 1:00. If I hear from you before 9:30 tomorrow, I'll plan on being there. If not, some other time. Chris, I'm open for another date too.

Too bad there's not more interest. I can make it with my wife and kids (don't worry, they're pretty well behaved) at about 1:00. Kit, are you (and anyone else) up for it?

I hope your going soon -- the restaurant at its current location is closing Oct. 18 (before reopening Oct. 28 at the new Disney Concert Hall downtown). Here's an article about it from today's L.A. Times: L.A Times article re Patina

Carswell, thanks for the update on Benelo. I am relieved that it turned out they use real beans and that you liked it. Living in the States, I miss the coffee I had there every morning. I hope to have it again soon and to try out some of the other places mentioned on this thread, like Cafe Italia. As for the Horace Tapscott's Arkestra, his stuff is not always easy to find even in the U.S. If you're interested, you can listen to some samples on Amazon, though not all his albums are listed and the samples are too short. I'd recommend starting with either "Aiee! the Phantom" (relatively tame) or "The Dark Tree, Vols. 1 and 2" (a masterpiece, but the music is more "outside.") Take care

I'm a big believer in the vacuum (also known as syphon) method of brewing coffee. It makes a great cup, is easy to use and beautiful to watch. Hario is a well known maker: Hario vacuum coffee There's a cafe in West L.A. (Cafe Balcony) that offers vacuum brewed coffee. They used to offer about 8 different varieties of coffee (including Blue Mountain for about $5 or $6 if I'm not mistaken), but I think they cut back on their offerings. Cafe Balcony

The whole 9/27-28 weekend is not good for me. The following weekends seem clear. How about 10/11?

I'm confirming my interest. I would love to do it, but it would have to be on a weekend. I would suggest lunch/brunch; it seems so appropriate for paninis.

For those interested, here is an article from today's L.A. Times by Russ Parsons about a local barista: barista

I couldn't agree more about the sad state of espresso in this country. For those interested, here is an article from today's L.A. Times by Russ Parsons about a local barista: barista "champion"

Kit: Looking at it from my self-centered perspective, a weekend is preferable. I think that would also be better for others who don't live in or near Long Beach. I would also suggest a daytime thing, perhaps lunch. And yes, a new thread is probably a good idea since I'm not so sure "Good espresso in L.A." will attract too many hits.

And, if 'm not mistaken, the Japanese markets also include the date the fish was packaged, not just the "sell by" date.

I'm game. Don't go overboard with the desserts so there'll be room for the fig gelato