Stone

I don't think he was making light or being obnoxious. He was simply pointing out that your argument could be restated just as strongly in support of the opposite conclusion. He may not be correct, but that's not obnoxious.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but what does this say about Keller's ubiquitous use of butter? Isn't he hiding behind one of the easiest and most universally enjoyable products?

Ton Kiang (or something like) out in the Avenues is supposed to be the place for dim sum. Yank Sing, downtown, is also supposed to be very good, but perhaps not as traditional. Yabbies (Polk and Vallejo) appears to be the place for standard seafood. Perlow is a fan of Aliotos down at Fisherman's Wharf. But although there aren't a lot of "seafood" restaurants in town, almost every good restaurant will serve a pretty good piece of fish, etc. I second the Delfina's recommendation.

I hope I don't get drawn any further into a discussion I've been trying to avoid joining for months, but . . . I don't think anyone doubts that people are more willing to pay higher prices for French cuisine. But at most I think that translates into popularity, not quality. People paid over a billion dollars to Titanic, but that didn't make it a good movie. The question is whether people are applying unreasonable or unsupportable standards when they determine that French food merits higher prices. It's similar to questions over whether non-Western literature is properly judged by Western standards. Frankly, I don't believe you. You've made quite a bit of money by selling crap (I'm not being judgmental here) to people who are following trends. Olive Garden has convinced a lot of people that they sell authentic Italian food. Etc. Etc. Etc. You do, just not for food items. (Ha!) But isn't this an admission that "quality" is subjective and changes with the times? People used to expect vegetables cooked through. Now they want vegetables fresher and crisper. Why? My point is that they haven't had the opportunity to try the top-end Indian cuisine. If people were surrounded by high-end Indian cuisine, offered in high-end dining rooms, and with respected critics, etc., raving about it, I think diners would follow and pay the higher prices. (I'm not arguing that 400 years ago the Moghul emporers ate great food.) My point actually is that most Americans are unaware of the Moghul tradition and therefore we don't associate it with the fineries of European culture and also we don't associate their food with anything more that peasant food. That if we didn't grow up with all the expensive restaurants serving French food, we wouldn't necessarily associate French technique with good. (Gross generalizations of course, but it's impossible not to generalize for purposes of trying to explain "why" "people" like certian "cuisine" better.) Finally, I don't think the fact that Indian people eat at Westernized Indian restaurants proves all that much. It proves that they're just as curious about the food as Westerners. Or that they like it just as much. It doesn't prove that they think it's better or worse than ordinary Indian food. (Edit to add:) In fact, perhaps the reason Indians favor Tabla among the whole of Meyer's empire is because the do think that Indian spices are better. At Diwan, most of the diners I saw were Indian.

Generalizations more than assumptions, in the interest of brevity and just to illustrate.

You wrote it a few times in the "Is Wilfrid Right" thread.

But this begs the question of "why" which is what this discussion (and ones we've had numerous times) is about. The average American diner (not you, Steve, or from what I guess the others who ate at Tabla) associates French dining with better dining. When we grew up, the people dropping big bucks on restaurants were going to French places. We associate Thai, Chinese, Vietnames, Indian with low-end dining brought to us by immigrants. (Not in a judgmental sense, but in a quality sense.) Amercans (Westerners in general?) are familiar with and understand the culture and granduer of Europe; we don't really know or appreciate the exquisite beauty of the Moghul court, nor are many of us familiar with the rich traditions of the Thai culture. So we, the average, begin from an assumption, conscious or otherwise, that we aspire to European high-class. The fine-diner should break out of that mold and judge the cuisine on its own, separated from presumptions and assumptions about the quality of cuisine. You, Steve, believe you are doing that. Some here think that you're not, especially when so many of the "Western standards" you apply inevitably favor French technique. It's like the French/Japanese Iron Chef battle in which the Japanese judges loved the Japanese chef's vegetable preparations, but the French judges both thought they were undercooked. Whether intentional or not, the French judges were not using an even standard to compare the dishes.

Hmmm. But I would change "what they thought was a display of wealth" to "what was a display of wealth."

I've realized that for someone like me, you'd be crazy to order a bottle of wine at a high-end restaurant. I can understand that for Plotz and similar eaters, the wine should be paired with the particular dish (although on a tasting menu I assume you have to get to half-bottles, etc.) and therefore it's more difficult to just bring something from home if you don't know what you'll be eating. But once I accept that I'll spent $100 on wine, why pay $100 for a $30 wine at the restaurant when I can pay $100 for a $75 bottle of wine at a store that's taking advantage of me.

am i the only one who uses the tip of the screw to rip the capsule off from the bottom? No! (i.e. Yes!) v Only because I can't figure out how to get the foil cutter from my Rabiit out of the display box. It's clipped in their like a fricking diamond.

Yes, but even those people grew up on overcooked vegetables and a fairly limited exposure to spices other than salt & pepper. They also grew up in a society that looked towards France and the rest of Europe for their ideas of "culture" (perhaps because most of us stem from European peasant stock) Reading this I recall that after eating at Diwan I thought of writing up a piece comparing it with French Laundry and investigating whether, after stripping away the trappings of finery, FL could stand up. For example, the bhel poori appetizer at Diwan had a nice presentation, well formed with various colors, etc., great textures (the puffed rice and crisp little noodle things), and vibrant blend of flavors from the sauces to the bits of fresh cilantro. FL's signature appetizer of oysters & pearls was a beautiful presentation, but texturally rode the edge as the tapioca sabayon could easily be described as gummy. More important, the dish relied heavily for flavor on butter (I've since heard this from a number of people and Keller himself describes the sauce in his cookbutter as a scoop of beurr monte with flavorings). The oyster was not much of a participant, and the caviar didn't stand out well. The pan-roasted veal at FL didn't compare to any of the chops at Diwan, wet or otherwise. The pork belly at FL was delicious, and exelled in presentation and, of course, highlighted the pork itself. Diwans' meats were just as delicious, but didn't focus as singularly on the meat alone. I don't think anyone could argue that this is a categorical flaw in technique. While FL's fish (black bass) had beautifully crisped skin, the meat was just as well-cooked piece of fish. Not necessarily an easy accomplishment, but certainly nothing knock-your-socks off about a piece of fish. The flavors in the shrimp and halibut tandoori at Diwan were more complex (he he), and still allowed the flavor of the flesh to shine through. It's difficult to compare FL's saucing, which were much more subtle, of course, to Diwan's. They are two different animals. FL's leant itself to more of an introspective meal -- you would taste it, and think about it trying to parse the flavors. That's more difficult to do with Indian food, because many of the flavors have melded together. Also, eating with Cabrales, it's o.k. to discuss each bite. Taking nine of my friends to Diwan, it would have been difficult for me to inquire into whether anyone tasted the subtly of the XXX coming out in the marinade. Also, FL relied on butter repeatedly. It was everywhere. I enjoyed it, but is it too sneaky? Just some thoughts on the possibility of a larger comparison.

Steve P -- I think the burden of the Indian chef in America is that Americans have until recently been raised on bland food, exacerbated of course by the explosion of food processing post-WWII. They have also been been taught that Indian food is eaten by poor starving peasants and causes the runs. I think I must be misunderstanding this, because if anything I see spices finding their way back into the American diet, not the other way around. (I read the threads backward.)

What he said. When I joked with the waiter that they were charging an awful lot for Indian food, he promptly corrected me and said that they were not serving Indian cuisine, but rather were serving American cuisines with Indian influences. (Or something like that.)

I haven't been to Kokkari, but I've heard very good things about it. For other recommendations, there are a bunch of threads in the California section that will be helpful. Do you have any particular preferences, likes or dislikes?

I think FL only offers three tasting menus currently. But I don't recall any great feats of construction there either. Usually just the focal item (lobster crepe, black bass, piece o' pork) sitting on a sauce, puree, etc. Most of the plates had some dots of balsamic, or sprays of s&p. Very minimalist as well. Steve -- I expected to go with one of your selections, but I was bullied into BYO by someone else.

Yeah, I hear that Trotter is allowing only platic corks because he read that over-harvesting is devastating the cork trees.

I'm just learning how to read the clues I get from women. I've obviously got years before I understand pastry chefs.

So, I guess that means you'll be skipping Becco with its all-you-can-eat pasta deal for $21.95. I used to go to Becco a lot. They had some excellent pasta (I recall a papardelle with rabit ragu and pumpkin ravioli) and very good entrees that no one orders. They also had some boring, boring stuff and for a long stage insisted on making bad risotto.

Ooh. Those will really look like a screaming person. Perhaps a bit too much.

I feel the same way about the ubiquitous pairing of apples and raisins with pork. Why spoil that bold, textured pig with a fruit sauce that should be spooned over vanilla ice cream? But that's just me.

I thought the dipping sauce was too sweet for my liking, but it was probably exactly what the restaurant wanted. I generally don't like things too sweet in my savory courses. Odd, because I love Asian food, and there's often a sweetness to the dishes, but it's usually hovering in the background. Also, FF's dipping sauce had quite a bit of citrus, something else I'm not a fan of. I think that the sauce, especially if joined with the cold, wet, crunch of the lettuce, would have completely distracted from the remarkable flavor and, more importantly, mouthfeel of the foie. The combination of the anise powder and the fat from the foie was far too good to mask with the sauce.

Well, my waiter's screw fell apart (perhaps I should have paid $175), and this is in the drawer. I also have a rabbit, but I've never had any problem with this one.

Good sweet Jesus. $175 for a corkscrew? Laguiole I've never had a problem with the much derided: And if you pull the auger in and out the arms waive about like a person screaming for help, which is kind of fun. (Sorry to digress, but on the Laguiole site, under the "Very Exceptional Knives" section, they write: "The following folding knives we sell on this page are very exceptional because they are made with the best attention of our craftsmen." I guess that means that the other knives are made by half-drunk, distracted novices who are rushing to hurry home to the wife and kids?)

Jesus, what a loaded question... Fifth Floor did not hide behind butter at all, FL did in almost every dish. (How's that for a loaded response?) Explorer -- the bill came to $360, including a $30 corkage fee. They asked if it was a special occasion, and we explained that we had to cancel birthday reservations back in December. No one said nothing about taking pictures (I didn't use a flash until the last shot when there was only two more tables left in our section, both behind and a few away), but I'm told that people behind me were staring.

FG -- I'm thinking about that one. One problem is that FL was 6 weeks ago, and memories fade. Also, FL was the first experience like that I'd ever really paid attention to. I'd say this beat Danko, but more because, as I mentioned in the Danko review, many of those dishes were very familiar. GD did them much better than usual, but they were familiar. FF wasn't. One quick thought is that FF's meat dishes were bolder. FF's squab easily beat FL's pan-roasted veal. The two pork belly's were each terrific, but very different reditions of the ingredient. I did think that FF's presentations weren't very spectacular. Lots of empty white plate. If you look at the photos on their websites, you see some very intrictate presentations. I don't think anything we got looked that pretty. (Danko's presentations were much bolder in color and construction.) Steve -- glad you asked. I was trailing asleep when I got to the desssert part. They did not ask what we wanted for dessert (FL didn't either, Danko did), and so I didn't really look at the menu. We did have a dessert amuse -- a little pot of custard with some chopped blood orange. (I think.) It wasn't great. The custard had broken up (kind of like broken bits of yogurt sitting in the yogut liquid -- bad description) and I don't recall that the flavor was anything special. There were four petit fours (go figure). I must say that by the end, I was stuffed and tired, so I only nibbled. By far the best was a grapefruit . . . I don't know what it's called. A hard jelly candy? Like the brightly colored fruit slices for Passover? It was dark brown in color and coated with large grain sugar. I had no expectation that it was grapefruit, and the flavor was intense. Also, it wasn't rich or heavy, which was perfect. Another was a small macaroon pyramid. I don't really memeber it. There was a thin slice of chocolate fudge that was good, but I would have enjoyed it more if I wasn't so full. Finally, a dark chocolate square flavored with a strong orange liqour. Again, too rich for me at the end of the evening. As I recall, I wasn't terribly impressed with FL's desserts also. In both instances, I was damn full and tired. And for my prefernces, if I was to have more food, I would have preferred another slice of pork belly or a ravioli (FF) or another crepe filled with lobster (FL). But, duh, who wouldn't. Wilfrid -- none of the portions were particularly large, although the pork belly wasn't small, especially considering the strong flavor. I stopped the bread train after two servings, and still did not want for food.