murkycoffee

I wouldn't know. Apparently, I know nothing. I've been told that I insulted the very restaurants that I was seeking some help from, so no soup for me.

I can understand the reason you ask this question. What I will tell you is this: I don't provide, nor offer, nor plan to offer, wholesale coffee or related 'coffee services' of any kind. If someone liked our coffee and wanted to serve it in their place of business, I would point them to the aforementioned Counter Culture Coffee, where we source our beans from. My request for help was regarding the presentation/service portion of the barista competition. Any pointers and/or advice regarding world-class table service was what we were looking for. Hope I addressed your questions. (no exclamation points this time )

It has been pointed out to me by some people that the content of a couple of my posts have been rude, offensive, and unprofessional. I apologize, and I ask for forgiveness from the eGullet community. I should never have criticized anyone or their coffee or coffee-program. It was not my intention to insult, but I have done so nonetheless. I'm sorry. To criticize specific institutions by name as I did was inappropriate. It has also been pointed out to me that the eGullet community does not engage in the sort of flinging of careless whims that the vast majority of online forums do. I apologize for not properly acculturating myself to this community before 'mouthing' off. I'm used to more free-flow discussion groups where people say what's on their mind, get into heated flame-wars about stuff, and then laugh about it over a beer when you meet in person. I was shocked to hear that eGullet is a wholly more civilized and serious community. I've never seen such a thing before, but that doesn't absolve me of the offensive tone of my posts. I am very passionate about coffee... it's what we do. I do stand by my coffee-challenge. I reiterate: it's not a criticism of the restaurant community... it's a problem with the coffee industry. It's a problem with coffee roasters. It's a problem with green buyers and importers. It's a problem with coffee and espresso equipment distribution; coffee and espresso training. No restaurant that I've ever seen or have heard of has a full-time barista (has anyone else?). Some day, that may change. The top baristas in the world have been at their craft for many years, and it takes those years to master the culinary art of espresso. Frankly, I'm excited about the future of coffee and espresso in restaurants! There are two restaurants that I've heard of in Chicago that can pour free-pour latte art! That's AWESOME! I encourage everyone who might be interested, to read the current main article on coffeegeek.com. I share Mark's vision for the coffee industry that he shares there. So, in conclusion, again, please forgive me for my indiscretion. I hope that I can be a better member of the community in the future.

You mean Kupi Luwak coffee? No. I don't. I don't deal with gimmicks in my business. (except for one )

Oh... one more thing... When I made my (bold) claim about $1000... please note that I wrote "coffee and espresso." About those coffee roasters I mentioned before... Counter Culture provides coffee for "Magnolia Grill" in Durham, NC. Intelligentsia roasts the coffee for Charlie Trotter in Chicago. Though I might argue that neither of these GREAT restaurants (I've only been to Magnolia Grill) stays on top of all of the little details, like grinding fresh per batch, using coffee roasted between 2-14 days ago, maintaining their coffee grinder and replacing burrs as necessary, etc.; they're clearly dealing with the best that coffee has to offer. Espresso is an ENTIRELY different story, and to be honest, I threw that in there because that's what makes my statement REALLY true!

Actually, yes... 'murky coffee' is intended to be a little tongue-in-cheek. As far as respect in the specialty coffee industry, I stand firmly by my statements. This is NOT an indictment of the Ritz, the Four Seasons, or anyone!!! This is actually much more an issue of education within the specialty coffee industry itself. For instance, 99.9% of people don't know that coffee, JUST like wine, cannot be categorized in broad-brushed ways! "Kenyan coffee" is like saying, "French wine." Yes, there are certain unique characteristics about French wines, but would a wine store sell bottles marked merely "French Wine?" I confess to writing these things with no appreciable knowledge of wines!!! However, let's say that you do, as is proper to do so, categorize your wines not just by country of origin, but by the winery that produced it. So would it suffice to put the country and winery? Of course not! What of the grape itself? What of the vintage year? My point is to say that the way coffee is sold, marketed, and understood by 99.9% of people is in a way, comparable to wine being merely labeled "French!" Want more? A great number of coffee roasters, YES, even perhaps YOUR roaster, knowingly substitute one origin bean for another! If your small-to-medium roaster has NEVER told you, "Oh, we're out of that particular green bean right now, so we can't give it to you roasted," chances are, there has been some surreptitious switching going on! It is of NO FAULT of the "culinary folks" at all. When I ask around to the expert-experts, "Why is coffee so 'shady'?" The most common response is that coffee is grown in Third World countries, and the economic situations in each of those countries effects the way coffee is bought and sold from the coffee farms. The stability or lack thereof in these nations effects the way coffee is exported, and there's a trickle-down effect down the supply chain. These are ALL problems within the coffee industry itself, and people are working to fix them. Please, please, please... do not think I have any disrespect for ANYONE, other than those in the coffee industry who knowingly deceive their customers. There is a competition held in certain coffee growing regions called "The Cup of Excellence." Coffee growers from around that country come and offer their beans for cupping. This is followed by an auction, therefore rewarding the best that the coffee-growing region has to offer. The winner is awarded that year's "Cup of Excellence" award for that country. I would be honored to share some CoE coffees with the "culinary folks" on this board. CoE coffees are, as you can imagine, rare, expensive, and in short supply. Once it's gone, it's gone. I'm expecting a shipment sometime soon, and I'm bringing you a bag, Todd, and any other DC area "culinary folks" who are interested! (Just PM or email me!) To be clear, I do NOT sell wholesale coffee, and do NOT intend to! In doing this, I have ZERO interest in financial gain! Yes, I'm proud of what we've been able to achieve in a very short time at murky, but I spend a great deal of time helping people who are trying to make their start in the business onto the right path. It is because I have a passion for coffee that supersedes financial interests, and I have a passion for PEOPLE beyond even that for coffee! It's FUN talking about this stuff, and this isn't the first time that I find myself in a "they think I'm nuts!" position! I LOVE coffee! I want to see it better! Sorry if I've ruffled feathers, but I don't take anything back! Sorry!

Ok! It's on! I was just wondering where have you travelled to source your beans? I am not a coffee roaster. However, I rely on the true experts in the industry to source the finest coffee in the world. My roaster is Counter Culture Coffee in Durham, North Carolina. They are among the very few of the very best in coffee in the country. Peter Giuliano, their Director of Coffee (head roaster and green buyer) travels to origin extensively. Next month, he will be in both Kenya and Ethiopia. I considered getting into roasting ourselves, but when I met and saw the best-of-the-best... why would I want to reinvent the wheel? I'd rather enjoy world-class and award-winning coffees!!! What is the optimum temperature for roasted Mocha Java? I don't know. Do you? I'm not a roaster... though if I remember correctly, it's more properly "Mocca Java." For coffee brewing, SCAA Golden Cup standards dictate 195*F-205*F. How often do you roast your beans? Our beans are roasted once a week. Our coffee is brewed or sold (whole bean) within two weeks (but no fewer than 2-3 days) of roasting, or we don't use it. What "name brand" coffees do you like? Counter Culture, Intelligentsia (Chicago), Stumptown (Portland), Taylor Maid (California), Terroir (Boston). Do you really know what a fine restaurant is? Peter and I enjoyed the marvelous "Le Creazione" (forgive me if my spelling is off) at Maestro last Friday. I enjoyed talking to the sommelier (I forgot his name) about the coffee, which (unfortunately) is from Illy. Illy is a great coffee roaster, but Illy in the U.S. (and most other places) is only available in months-old cans. Nitrogen-washed or not, old coffee is old coffee. What style of roasting do you use? Counter Culture has two different roasters, both PID-modified drum roasters. Our espresso is northern-Italian style, and is a light-roast. As far as our other single-origin coffees, the coffee is roasted and Agtron-spectographed to ensure that the roast profile brings out the best that that particular coffee has to offer. What kind of roaster do you have? See above... I don't have one... but I have both a La Marzocco Linea 3-group semiauto with Schomer-modified banjo tubes, and a Synesso Cyncra 3-group for my espresso machines. I have FETCO Extractor-series drip brewers, Mahlkonig (sp?) grinders for drip, a bunch of french-presses on the way for 'cafetiere' coffee. What do you look for in your roast profile for Columbian Beans? Unfortunately, Colombian coffee hasn't been very good in the past few years... but the green buyers (from the 'favorite brands' list above) are discovering beautiful new Colombians this year! Like I said, don't take offense. When more people see that coffee should be truly appreciated as a culinary experience unto itself (instead of merely a caffeine-delivery-system or a denoument to dinner), we're hoping to see the fine-dining community take notice. Any more questions? I'd love to have you over some time for some coffee Todd!!! Seriously! I'm so happy to talk to culinary-folks about coffee and espresso! I'm also looking forward to visiting Restaurant Eve myself!

Something the matter? In case you object to my statement, please first remember that I'm speaking of the fine-dining community as a whole, and no particular restaurant. Though if you challenge the validity of my statement, I accept the challenge! :-)

Yeah. Don't get me started on 'fine restaurants' and coffee. I'll bet $1,000.00 that I have hands-down better coffee and espresso than ANY restaurant in the U.S., probably in the world. In that, I don't mean to hype my shops; more it is an indictment of the culinary world when it comes to coffee. At least today. People are working on changing that though.

I'll check out some of the places people have mentioned. Thanks!

Explain please!

Duly noted. We've been in Arlington for three months now, and some of the staff is still 'in training' for their barista skills. I'm sorry if you've had a bad experience. I know that our espresso can vary from what come have proclaimed to be 'world class' to undrinkable, depending on who's on bar. We're making major moves right now to increase our training... until now, it's taken well over a year of experience before people a barista really 'gets it.' We're working on developing a new training program, including a full-time trainer (who coincidentally starts his job next week). Good things take time. I hope you'll be patient with us... we're working on it. Nick

Anne (and others in Seattle)!!! The 2005 United States Barista Championship is in Seattle from March 9-13th! You should come and check it out! Bronwen Serna (of Hines Public Market Coffee in Seattle) and Chris Deferio (of Gimme! Coffee, Ithaca, NY) are not only great people and great baristas who will be competing (or in Bronwen's case, likely judging... she's the 2004 USBC champ!), but they're also among the world's best latte-artists!!! Check out www.scaa.org for details!

Unfortunately, coffee brewers of all shapes and sizes have inherent shortcomings that result in improper coffee extractions (of varying degrees, of course). Even commercial brewers (BUNN, etc.) usually fall short. The #1 issue is brew-water temperature. Most coffee machines just can't get the water hot enough: about 201-203*F. You're really not 'hitting the sweet-spot' of coffee with anything that falls short. If only that were the only problem! Another, oft overlooked issue is how even an extraction you get from your setup. The ever-popular 'paper-cone' or 'gold-cone' filters, generally considered a superior design, overextract the grounds toward the apex of the cone. Then there's the agitation issue. In an ideal setup, there's turbulence created that helps 'stir-up' the grounds, allowing for, again, a more even extraction. This is why a french-press or vac-pot is so ideal. It really takes care of all of the issues above... that is, if you start with the right temperature water. The environment promotes an even extraction, and turbulence is automatic in a vac-pot, and can be promoted by stirring up the grounds with a french-press (YES... you should stir it up!!!) Bob, I can understand your aversion to the sediment... it's a very common reaction. But notice the body and mouthfeel that you can get from french-press coffee! The sediment gives the coffee a great texture, no? BTW... are you using a blade grinder? A burr-grinder will help reduce the amount of finer particles. Nick www.murkycoffee.com

Hi all. My name is Nick Cho, and I'm the owner and head barista of murky coffee. We have two shops: one on Capitol Hill (Eastern Market area) and one in Clarendon (formerly 'Common Grounds') My question is, who is the pinnacle of service in DC? Basically here's our deal: we recently took 1st and 2nd place at the Southeast Regional Barista Competition earlier this month. Our champ, Ryan Jensen (works mostly in Capitol Hill) is slated to compete in the semifinal round of the US Barista Championship next month in Seattle. A significant portion of the scoring (one third) is presentation evaluation (the other two: beverage taste evaluation, and technical evaluation). The paradigm of the competition is the ultimate fine-dining espresso experience. As a result, I'm hoping that the management at one of our many DC restaurants will perhaps help us in training for the event. Ryan's overall presentation is very solid, and his poise and composure is top-rate. However, we can always use some polishing. So that being said/written, any thoughts on who I should talk to? A buddy (Peter Giuliano, head roaster and green-coffee buyer from Counter Culture Coffee in Durham, NC) just had the 7-course Creazione at Maestro tonight... and though their service was excellent (no need to further hype the food... mMMmmMMMM!), I'm thinking that there may be a more formal setting somewhere in the city. Anyone have any ideas? Nick www.murkycoffee.com

Coffee has 4 major components to proper extraction. Here's my list for french press (the only variables, dependent on "style" of preparation, will be time and grind): 1) Time: 5 mins. 2) Water temp: 195* F. This is pretty much a constant no matter which way coffee is prepared (please... no posts about cold-extraction coffee!) 3) Grind: Coarse. Similar to coarse sugar 4) Bean freshness: no less than 2 days from roasting, no more than 10-14 days. The coffee should be ground immediately before beverage prep for best results too. So to answer your question... 5 mins, and plunge away!!! Nick

The yield appears to be about 27 fl. oz. for a 32 oz. Bodum presspot. Our purpose in planning to offer french press coffee is simply because it is the (arguably) best way to extract drip-style coffee. Our shop is small, only 750-ish sq. ft., and we have three unbroken Bodum presses now (one with broken glass... your reference to the fragility of these things is duly noted). Our motto here at murky coffee is "Totally committed to serving the people of Washington the best damn coffee there is. Yes, we said 'Damn'." Offering french press to those who can appreciate it is a result of our core philosophy. Your feedback regarding the prices of my drip coffee are also duly noted. I'll think about that one. However, still interested in feedback about "What would you pay?" What would you pay for a 32-oz (27 oz yield) presspot of (objectively speaking) kick-ass coffee? What Michelin rated restaurants charge for coffee doesn't really apply. I'll put my "real" cappuccino against any of those $8 autofrothed abominations any day. Nick http://www.murkycoffee.com