Jump to content

slkinsey

eGullet Society staff emeritus
  • Posts

    11,151
  • Joined

Posts posted by slkinsey

  1. How come Dale DeGroff no longer gets much play? Like Sneakeater, I remember going to Blackbird and I marveled at cocktails made with, for example, fresh raspberries. He seems to be an elder of the movement, and he's still working, but do any of the places he works with now have good programs? Where does Dale fit into the larger picture?

    It's difficult to put this all in the proper context, and yet be sure to give Dale the huge credit he deserves...

    I imagine cocktail culture as being like an upward curve. When Dale started, it was at the very narrow part of the curve. There was practically no awareness or interest in cocktail culture. He created a lot of that in New York from scratch. But you have to remember that Dale's movement-starting turn in the Rainbow Room began twenty years ago! And he was already ten years into his bartending career. Blackbird was nine years ago, and the curve was still only a bit fatter than it was when he began. People like Audrey and Sasha and Julie were able to capitalize on the ground that Dale laid, and they had the advantage of working in a fatter part of the curve, and one that has curved upwards dramatically in only the last 3 years.

    At this point, however, it's a bit late in Dale's career for him to be owning/managing a bar and shaking cocktails several nights a week. As a father of the movement, he wasn't in a position to benefit from the resurgent interest in cocktails the way people like Audrey and Sasha and Julie have been able to do, because there wasn't anything to benefit from as yet -- they hadn't grown the curve sufficiently. So, at this point, the way to get some benefit is to do consulting gigs -- lend your name and expertise to places that want it, and then walk away with money in your pocket. The reality, however, is that places with consultant lists are usually not very good. They may have a few nice drinks designed by the consultant, but unless there is someone there who cares about the program, manages training and quality, ads to the list, and all those things, it's often a fairly rapid slide to mediocrity. In this sense, it's no different than restaurants that have a name chef come in who consults on the menu and then takes off shortly after opening to his next gig. For this reason, there isn't too much excitement when one hears about a place opening with a "Dale Degroff list and Dale Degroff-trained staff." This isn't a reflection on Dale at all, but rather a reflection on the nature of consulting gigs. I have no doubt that, were Dale to open a "signature Dale DeGroff bar" where he was there five nights a week personally managing, recruiting and training the staff, designing the list and mentoring his staff on their contributions, etc... there would be a great deal of interest among the cocktailian community, and I have no doubt that it would be a top cocktail spot. Unfortunately, that seems unlikely.

  2. Okay I get it now.

    To expand a bit on Nathan's comments: Places like Bobo, Elettaria, etc. are places where you can go there on a certain night and avail yourself of a cocktailian heavy hitter (Naren at the former, Brian at the latter). Other nights, you must avail yourself of the list and hope that whoever is back there is going to make it properly. In general, with places with "consultant" cocktail lists, or where there isn't someone on-premises every night who cares about the cocktail program, there is a general decline from great at the start to not-so-great further down the line (e.g., 5 Ninth).

    Notwithstanding the foregoing, I would still "rank" these places higher than places such as the USHG or BR Guest places, because at least you can go to, e.g., Elettaria when Brian is there and experience the full monte with one of the City's best shakers. The USHG and BR Guest places often have cocktails designed by someone very good, but that guy isn't going to be in the house mixing the drinks and riffing up new ones. More to the point, that's not really the goal of the cocktail programs at these places. The goal is to have an offering of interesting-but-widely-appealing cocktails that play into the food menu and restaurant's theme.

    To make an example, let's look at Tabla. Here is their menu:

    Purana Fashioned Elijah Craig 12 year Bourbon & St. Elizabeth Allspice Dram

    Rye Smile Ginger Infused Old Overholt Rye, Fresh Lemon Juice & Soda

    Indian Sangria Red Wine, A Blend of Spirits, Fresh Fruits & Spice

    Thai Basil Bliss Sauza Blanco Tequila, Fresh Thai Basil, Pineapple & Sparkling Wine

    Hang Thyme Hangar One Buddha’s Hand Citron & Fresh Thyme

    Tabla Libre House Spiced Rum, GUS Dry Cola & Fresh Lime

    Watermelon Mojito Cruzan Light Rum, Fresh Mint, Watermelon & Lime

    Tablatini Skyy Citrus with Lemongrass-Infused Fresh Pineapple Juice

    Lots o’ Passion Passion Fruit Purée with Vodka & Lime Juice

    Masala Mary Spiced Tomato Juice with Ketel One & Chef Floyd’s Pickled Onions

    Pomegranate Gimlet Pomegranate Juice with Plymouth Gin & Fresh Lime Juice

    Tamarind Margarita Sauza Blanco Tequila, Luxardo Triplum, Tamarind, Fresh Lime & Orange

    Kachumber Kooler Green Chillies, Cilantro, Cucumber & Plymouth Gin

    This must be a fairly current list, because St. Elizabeth Allspice Dram hasn't been on the market that long. This is just not a menu that is interesting to a cocktailian, and none that I know would make a trip to Tabla to avail themselves of these drinks. I can't think of a single one of these I would order if it were on the menu at D&C.

  3. Yea, you gotta move the wine glasses. You could have booze there!

    ShadowedOne has an interesting solution, but I think that only works if you want to have all your liquor bottles on permanent display and have the extra room for the shelving (neither of which is true for me).

    I sort-of end up with a "quadrant" system. If it's a short stubby bottle, it's going to be on the lower shelf to the right and so on.

  4. Ya call that a liquor cabinet?

    gallery_8505_276_200021.jpg

    gallery_8505_276_36599.jpg

    Seriously, though... I haven't found that there's much you can do unless you have something more custom-designed. My solution is to have one "working" cocktail spirits cabinet with maybe 50 bottles in it -- then keep any duplicate bottles in the tool cabinet, any "mostly for sipping" spirits like single malt scotch, absinthe, Red Hook Rye, etc. in the bottom of the china cabinet, and any vermouth-type things in the refrigerator. Other than that, I try to keep the gin together, all the pisco together, and that sort of thing. Not very good at that, as you can see... and the annoyance of some bottles being extra tall and skinny with others being extra short and fat screws up the "system" a bit.

    One thing that I do find useful for home is that I put my "mixing kit" on a tray that I can slide out of the cabinet. This has my mixing tins, strainers, muddler, jiggers, bitters and that sort of thing. That way, when I'm ready to make drinks, I need only slide out the tray and put it on the countertop.

  5. The site says that mixing water to whiskey generates dilution heat, causing it to rise to about 3 C in temperature.  By cooking the glass and the whisky well enough, you can make mizuwari where the whisky is hard to dilute, keeping the balance of flavors.

    I am not aware of anything known as "dilution heat." In order for combining whiskey with water to cause the resultant solution to rise in temperature from, there would have to be an exothermic reaction. In consideration of the fact that the whiskey is already at least 50% water, I would say that this is impossible on a chemical basis.

    Well, it's been a long time since I took physical chemistry but I assure you it is possible.

    Because the weak bonds/interactions between highly polar water and less polar ethanol are different, you get changes in physical properties that are not strictly additive when the two are mixed. So you get a delta-H of mixing that is, um, I think positive and the temperature increases. The effect is really noticeable when you dilute nitric acid with water - it can get really hot. On the other hand if you mix acetic acid and water it gets cold because of the opposite effect on the bonding.

    I don't know the magnitude of the temperature effect in mixing alcohol and water or if it really has any effect on the resulting drink. It seems to me that the heat taken up by melting the ice is the same whether it occurs before or after the mixing. But as I pointed out thermodynamics is not always intuitive...

    Okay, maybe if you are mixing pure ethanol with pure water. But the point is that <100 proof whiskey is already mostly water!

  6. If you want to get rid of all the fine particles, what you want to do is clarify your stock, not strain it. This is better, I find, if you do it before the reduction stage. To clarify, stir plenty of egg whites into cold stock, stir constantly as you bring it up to temperature, then stop stirring and allow the coagulated "raft" of egg whites to float to the top while you lightly simmer for 10 minutes or so. After that, gently strain through cheesecloth and you will have a crystal-clear stock.

  7. I've always heard that a little bit of water added to the whiskey causes a chemical reaction that is supposed to raise its temperature a bit and that you can observe this by noting a stronger aroma off of the scotch after the volatility of the drink is increased by this process.

    Think about it... considering that 100 proof whiskey is 50% water by volume, how could this possibly be true?

  8. The site says that mixing water to whiskey generates dilution heat, causing it to rise to about 3 C in temperature.  By cooking the glass and the whisky well enough, you can make mizuwari where the whisky is hard to dilute, keeping the balance of flavors.

    I am not aware of anything known as "dilution heat." In order for combining whiskey with water to cause the resultant solution to rise in temperature from, there would have to be an exothermic reaction. In consideration of the fact that the whiskey is already at least 50% water, I would say that this is impossible on a chemical basis.

    Oh, I realize you're just translating, Hiroyuki! But these directions don't really resemble any cocktail recipe I've ever seen.

    It's not a cocktail. It's "Whiskey and Water."

    A ratio of 1:2 or 2:5 doesn't strike me as all that unusual for whiskey and water. It just won't have that much alcoholic potency, is all. But plenty of highballs have a much larger ratio of spirit to (fizzy) water than what Suntory recommends.

    There are definitely certain flavors and nuances that will become apparent when the spirit is diluted like this that are obscured when the spirit is taken at full intensity

  9. Bemelman's was a hoot in the old days, before we knew about Quality Cocktails.  . . . But are you saying it's equally great under the new guy from Per Se?  I haven't been -- but I also haven't heard that.

    Bemelmans Bar (no apostrophe), even back in Audrey's day, was never a place where you could go "off menu" with the Union bartenders. They knew how to make Martinis and Vodka Tonics and that sort of thing, and they were trained to make Audrey's specialty drinks (some of which may have been batched for them), and that's it. I remember one of the first times I went there, I asked a bartender for an Aviation, and he politely but firmly replied that he'd be happy to make me anything on the menu.

    What made Bemelmans so much fun for me was that I made friends with Audrey there, and when we would visit the bar, Audrey would hang out with us at a table and also go back to make all the drinks for us. Sometimes she'd make up some new drinks based on the conversations we were having at the table. One that I still have in my book is the "Eric Malson Manhattan" that she made for Eric, who is especially fond of Booker's bourbon (2 1/2 Booker's, 3/4 sweet vermouth, 1/2 Punt e Mes, 1 dash Angostura). This sort of thing was possible because her responsibilities at Bemelmans were nowhere near what they are at Pegu today, and it's the one thing I really miss about the "old Bemelmans days."

    Anyway... I would assume that Bemelmans Bar works more or less the same way today, with the Union Bartenders making the usual hotel bar-type stuff, plus whatever specialty cocktails Brian Van Flandern has put on the menu. If the specialty cocktails are any good, it should be similar to the way the experience was in Audrey's day for people who didn't get Audrey herself. I don't know anything about his work, but haven't been too terribly excited about the Per Se cocktails I've tried -- although I don't know if those are his or not. From the looks of things he does a lot of consulting.

  10. I love Pegu a lot but the menu seems a bit stale and not as balanced (use of ginger beer and mint)[.]

    What do you mean?

    The list isn't that long. Maybe 15+ cocktails, and I'm guessing that 4-5 drinks have mint in them. I happen to like mint a whole lot but I recognize that not everyone does.

    Compare the menu now with back in 2005:

    http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...dpost&p=1001104

    A lot of those drinks are still on the menu, whereas the newer places (Tailor, PDT, etc.) revamp their menus on a more regular basis. The last PDT changeover jettisoned all but one or two drinks, IIRC, which is more interesting to me.

    Anyway, I agree with Sneakeater. As usual. On most things.

    Part of the reason for this is because a lot of those cocktails are signature Audrey Saunders drinks that have, by now, entered into the canon of "modern classics." I speak of things like the Gin Gin Mule, Tantris Sidecar, etc. With all due respect to my talented bartender friends at PTD, etc. -- and I don't think they would disagree with me on this point -- this is something they simply haven't done as yet. Audrey is someone who is in the running for "most important mixologist of her generation." When customers go to Pegu Club, they expect to be see Audrey's famous classics on the menu. It's also a lot easier to completely tear down and rebuild a menu several times a year when you've got two to three bartenders serving a capacity of 35 than it is when the capacity is 150.

    That said, I do think the Pegu menu is due for some expansion and, now that Audrey and Philip Kirschen-Clark have revamped Pegu's food offerings into what the NY Times called "the most elaborate and successful in the city" I think she may look into revamping the cocktails menu.

    I wonder if we'll ever see anything like the early days of Pegu Club again.

    It's doubtful. Just about every top mixologist in NYC worked at Pegu during the early days.

    And if we really want to start an argument, how about the five best bartenders in New York City?

    That's a difficult evaluation to make. There is a distinction to be made between "bartender" and "mixologist." There are some excellent mixologists that are so-so bartenders, and many of the city's most acclaimed and influential mixologists rarely if ever tend bar anymore.

    The new White Star on "lower" Essex St. (that is, below Grand St.) is definitely serious about its drinks.  They won't be shaking any cocktails, there's no citrus, but anything else that can be built in a glass (e.g. an old fashioned, a negroni) is fair game, and it appears for now, at least, to be staffed by experts.

    They're really focused more on "sipping spirits" and absinthe than cocktails, per se, aren't they?

  11. But they're not like D&C or PDT, where you can walk in anytime and assume you won't have to worry who's on board to get an excellent cocktail

    Would you make the same claim about every place on your short list?

    With the possible exceptions of Clover Club and Flat Iron,* yes.**

    __________________________________________

    * I hate to say anything bad about Julie, whom I adore, but I don't find she's as much of a maniac about staffing as the others.

    ** I haven't had the bad times at Pegu that others claim to have had.

    All cocktail bars eventually go through a lull as talent matures to the point where it moves on and new talent has to be developed. This hit both Flatiron Lounge when a lot of talent moved to Pegu, and it hit Pegu when a lot of their talent moved on to D&C and a few other places. The problem, more or less, was that there simply wasn't enough talent on that level in the city to go around. New talent had to be made. It hasn't happened to places like D&C or PDT yet, but don't think it won't. Eventually, for example, Brian and Joaquin (and maybe even Phil) are going to move on to their own places.

    By now, both Pegu and Flatiron have bounced back very well and have a good mix of experienced bartenders and young up-and comers. Clover Club, for example, has Giuseppe Gonzalez, Pegu Club has Kenta Goto, and the last time I was at Flatiron Lounge, Damon Dyer was behind the bar.

  12. Two people I trust immensely in matters of cocktails have suggested Bobo (and Angel's Share gets mentioned all the time even if it doesn't actually deserve the accolades). In all I have a list of 10 (sneaketer's list of seven plus Little Branch, Bobo and Angel's Share) places that reasonable (albeit possibly ill informed) people have suggested could be top 5, so I think it's useful to look for a top 5 out of that universe.

    No cocktailian I know has ever mentioned Bobo, which is a restaurant. Just on a cursory review, the cocktail list is not worthy of a top five list for NYC. Neither would Angel's Share be worthy of inclusion on such a list.

    My read on the situation is that nearly every person who has made a study of it puts Pegu, PDT and Death on the top 5 list but that there's a real debate as to the other 2 slots (I'm still personally trying to understand Death but hope to get there). Even if we made it a top 10 list, though, there would be people arguing about whether to include Elettaria or whatever.

    I think you will find that the vast majority of NYC cocktalians would agree with the list of five I first proposed, and I don't think there would be any debate about leaving any of them off of the "top five" list. If anything, you may find people arguing for making it a "top seven" list -- but I don't think you'll find significant argument that any of the five I proposed should be striken from the list in favor of any other bar. Certainly, there is no leaving off Milk & Honey. And I don't see how one can leave off at least one Julie Reiner bar. The only real contender not on my list is Tailor, which is kind of a special case. So, perhaps one might suggest a "top six" list consisting of:

    Pegu Club

    Death & Company

    PDT

    Tailor

    Milk & Honey/Little Branch

    Clover Club/Flatiron Lounge

    The only real debate is whether to choose Milk & Honey over Little Branch or Clover Club over Flatiron Lounge. Both "couples" draw from one pool of bartenders and are overseen by one person (Sasha for M&H and LB, Julie for CC and FL), so while they may feature different drinks it is hard to definitively say that one is "better" or even remarkably "different" in terms of the quality of the cocktails or mixology. My preference is for Milk & Honey over Little Branch because Little Branch is more or less Milk & Honey minus the exclusivity and special attention; and for Clover Club over Flatiron Lounge because it's newer and has a more expansive menu at the present time.

    At what Sam calls the next level down, I'd also probably argue for just about any Union Square Hospitality Group bar operation. They tend to be quite serious about their cocktail programs. (Jim Meehan is ex-Gramercy, I believe.)

    No, the USHG restaurants and places like that can aspire to the third tier. They have a nice program, but serious cocktailians aren't going to Tabla for cocktails. Even when Jim was a Gramercy, it wasn't considered a destination cocktail spot so much as a place where you knew you could get some great cocktails along with your meal -- nothing like he has going at PDT.

  13. The thing is, NYC's cocktail culture has matured, but even now I think you could pretty much do it ALL in a list of seven:

    Death & Co.

    PDT

    Tailor

    Pegu

    Clover Club

    Milk & Honey

    Flat Iron

    I personally just don't think there are enough contenders yet to merit a "Top 5", since it would be the top 5 out of at best 10 possibilities.

    I think you could add Little Branch to this list.

    There are plenty of places on the next level down. Places with good bartenders and good drinks that are good enough to be far and away the best cocktail joint in most American cities, but are second-tier in NYC. These are places like Freeman's, Rayulela, Brandy Library (although cocktails really aren't their best thing), Employee's Only, B Flat, Elettaria, East Side Company, etc.

    Angel's Share, I don't get. That place has been cruising on a no-longer-valid reputation for at least 5 years.

  14. In New York City, and in no particular order:

    Pegu Club

    Death & Company

    PDT

    Clover Club (or Flatiron Lounge if you're restricting to Manhattan)

    Milk & Honey

    I don't think there will be too much argument among NYC cocktailians on this list.

    One of the things you will find is that 95% of the top cocktail spots are closely related, all sprouting from the Audrey Saunders/Julie Reiner/Sasha Petraske tree in one way or another. Tailor would be the major exception to that -- and, needless to say, Eban is doing his own unique thing there.

  15. The demise of the corner bar in America is linked directly to suburban sprawl and the proliferation of car culture. In order to have a viable corner bar, there needs to be a sufficient number of people within walking distance. This is why there are plenty of corner bars in communities with sufficient population density (which also tend to have pretty good public transportation) and also why the cocktail revival has largely grown out of dense, older cities.

  16. As slkinsey says, "purity" does get horribly confused between chemical purity and purity of tradition or origin.

    The French "Sel Gris" is very 'pure' in the sense that, er, its just ordinary seawater with the water taken away, but chemically its terribly impure - which is why it is actually grey, not white.

    Actually, no sea salt is "seawater with the water taken away." As I said before, all edible salt is at least 99% sodium chloride. Sea water contains 7.68% sulphate, 3.69% magnesium, 1.16% calcium, 1.10% potassium and around 0.72% other stuff. Sea salt is refined using fractional crystallization via solar evaporation, and sometimes by "washing" of the resulting crystallized sodium chloride with a saturated solution of sodium chloride. The color comes from a minute percentage of "other stuff" that remains in the salt.

  17. There are several different kinds of "supertasters." Some of them do seem to have a greater concentration of fungiform papillae, which would account for the greater taste sensitivity. But it's also true that while most so-called "supertasters" have some increased sensations of non-bitter tastes, they are often not "super-sensitive" to other tastes the way they are to bitterness. For example, supertasters rarely complain that something is too sweet (more on which later). So there is something about supertasters that makes them especially sensitive to bitter tastes, and this has been linked to the genetically-mediated ability to taste phenylthiocarbamide and other bitter-tasting compounds that not everyone can taste.

    Supertasters tend to dislike things like cruciferous vegetables, asparagus, spinach, grapefruit, coffee and tea, and alcohol (!). Quinine and all bittering substances (aka, bitters) have an increased bitterness for supertasters. For most people, however, the effect of bitterness can be tamed with sweetness. In other words, if you have a cup of coffee that is too bitter to drink straight, most people can balance the bitterness with sugar to the point that they are able to drink and enjoy it. The amount of sugar will depend on the person, and perhaps on that person's genetic sensitivity to bitter compounds. We are already a bit behing the 8-ball in America, because the American palate is trained to enjoy sweet tastes and avoid bitter tastes. Italians, for example, don't have this problem. Anyway, it's interesting that you mention a particular sensitivity to bitterness, because when I have made your cocktails, they have often seemed sweet to my palate.

    As for bitter lemon, it seems probable that there is a small enough amount of quinine and a large enough amount of sugar and acid to counterbalance for whatever your level of sensitivity might be.

  18. Bols has long been a favored genever. Indeed, the first post in this thread (dating to 2005) laments the fact that Bols had recently decided to stop distribution to the States. We'll be very happy to see it back here! I ran in to the US brand guy at Pegu Club some months ago, so I was aware that there were plans to bring it back. Any ideas as to when it will hit the states? And which versions? A Jonge and Oude are expected, but a Korenwijn would be great.

  19. There is also a "Savoy Corpse Reviver" dating to 1954 from Joe Gilmore at the Savoy, consisting of equal parts brandy, Fernet Branca and white crème de menthe.

    As for the naming convention, I think it is quite old. There were all kinds of drink categories back in the 18C -- although I think that most of them "defined" a feeling and perhaps a style, time,situation or manner of imbibing rather than more well-defined categories such as a Julep. This we have from Notes and Sketches of the Paris Exhibition, by George Augustus Sala (Tinsley Brothers, 1868) on page 374:

    While thirst is my theme, let me mention, with gratification, a great establishment for the slaking of human lime which was in the exterior zone. Messrs. Dows and Guild, and nother and kindred firm, who added to their raison commercial the familiar name of "Van Winkel," started a grand American bar, and a grander American restaurant. At the bar, and from syphon tubes decorated with silvery figures of the American eagle, were dispensed the delicious "cream soda" so highly recommended by the faculty. "Cobblers, "noggs," smashes," "cocktails," "eye openers," "moustache twisters," and "corpse revivers" were also on hand; and I dare say you might have obtained the mystic "tip and tic," the exhilarating "morning glory," the mild but health-giving sarsaparilla punch, to say nothing of " one of them things," which is a recondite and almost inscrutable drink. I remember being treated to " one of them things" at Boston, by a young gentleman who was a "Sophomore" of Harvard College; indeed, I think we took two of "them things." The effect produced on me was an impression that I had set fire to the Temple of Diana at Ephesus, combined with an ardent desire to slay Professor Agassiz, and take refuge from justice at the top of the Bunker-hill monument. In fact, "I felt bad." The kindly Sophomore at once suggested a curative whose action was instantaneous and efficacious. I may not mention its components; but it is called, "one of them other things."

    I think of "Corpse Reviver" as being more or less along the same lines as drinks like the "Moustache Twister."

    • Like 1
  20. I think it's cool to have some extremely-limited-edition bottlings. I have several bottles of Red Hook Rye of various issue, for example.

    Needless to say, with a $200 initiation fee, $35 yearly dues and average prices in the $85 to $140 range, one would need to have a goodly amount of money allocated to "special sipping spirits" on a yearly basis to make this worth it. I wouldn't think it makes sense to join if one were to purchase only one <$140 bottle a year.

×
×
  • Create New...