slkinsey

I think it just happens to be a coincidence that the BABBP happened in NYC. It could have happened anywhere, and I have no doubts that plenty of people would have attended (although there may have been more enthusiasm for the diversity of styles in NYC than there might have been in a region with strong stylistic biases). Well, I think there is a pretty easy explanation for this. The population of New York City is around 8 million. The BABBP probably drew attendees from a much larger population area, but let's go conservative and call it 8 million. Assuming that there were 50,000 attendees, that's 0.6% of the population of NYC who checked it out. Greenville, SC has a population of 56,000. 50,000 attendees at a bagel festival would represent 90% of the population. 0.6% would represent around 335 people. Do you think it would be impossible to drum up 335 people for a bagel festival or something similarly "foreign" in Greenville? I don't. In fact, I would argue that bagel appreciation has permeated the zeitgeist of Greenville, SC far more deeply than barbecue appreciation has permeated the zeitgeist of New York City. The fact is that the average New Yorker doesn't really give a rat's ass about barbecue, but there are so damn many of us that even a small minority can make something look like a big deal based only on numbers. I don't quite understand where you get the idea that New York has a "fixation on [traditional American] barbecue." I think you'll find, as I say above, that most New Yorkers really don't care about it all that much more than they do, say, hotdogs. As one of the panelists in the "barbeculture" talk said, "barbecue" has become an identifiable flavor throughout most of America. Additionally, much the same way that the Black migration from the South to the North brought barbecue to cities like Chicago, so has the migration of Southerners to New York City brought an increased interest in barbecue (and other Southern foods) to the City. Also additionally, the immigration of other cultures with similar meat cooking traditions (notably Caribbean and African) have tended to reinforce an interest in barbecue-like foods. So it stands to reason that barbecue would find some interest in the City. I'm not sure it's accurate to suggest, however, that New York City is trying to establish itself as a "barbecue capital" by virtue of having some restaurants that are trying to make good barbecue any more than Raleigh, NC is trying to establish itself as a "pizza capital" by virtue of having some restaurants that are trying to make good pizza (assuming that they are). What I think we have here with the BABBP is nothing more complicated than a dense population center (NYC) combined with some people (Danny Meyer, et al.) with an interest in barbecue and the financial and organizational wherewithal to pull something like this off.

Or my personal favorite: vialone nano. There really aren't any places in NYC that have what I would call such an outstanding risotto that it was substantially better than I could do myself at home, although some feature luxury ingredients I probably wouldn't use. Risotto is one of the few dishes that are more difficult to execute well in a restaurant setting than in one's own home. My favorite restaurant risotto in NYC thus far has been the escargot and black truffle risotto starter at Town. I don't know if it's still on the menu, though.

Pavarotti hasn't been one of opera's greats?! It's hard to take someone seriously when they say something like that. It sounds to me like Bonilli is looking at Italian restaurant culture through a French lens.

I beat you to it. Without taking away anything from vodka, which I use with some frequency, I would suggest that the above statement is true largely because vodka doesn't have much taste (a.k.a., flavor).

Dude... what is up with that? You totally have to take from the deckle. Well, the best is a carefully crafted mix of deckle and flat for just the right amount of fat. Absent a skilled counterman, though, I'd rather have all deckle than all flat.

Some interesting points made, and worth making. I will suggest, however, that Megu's and Bruni's use of "kobe beef" to describe waygu beef from America is not particularly relevant to a discussiuon of Megu as a restaurant or of this review as it relates to Megu as a restaurant. So, if there is significant sentiment to continue this fork of the discussion, please start a new thread in General Food Topics.

Franny's was reviewed in today's NY Times: Brooklyn Pizza With a Résumé I found it kind of odd that the write up of what is in essence a pizzeria only devoted a quarter of the review to their pizza and doesn't have much illuminating to say about them: This is Dana Bowen's second or third $25 and Under, afaik, and it seems like she's still feeling her way around a bit. It was a positive review, I thought, but didn't really say as much as the New York Magazine review (although NY Magazine had 70% more words to say it in). Interesting that Bowen doesn't like the pasta, though, as other reviews have been very positive.

Oh? Should it say "cheddar style cheese" unless the cheese comes from Cheddar, England?

Steven, those new pictures are certainly a lot closer to what I would think of as a Neapolitan style than the first one. Still, they don't show the signs of the explosive action on the crust that one gets in a hot Neapolitan oven, and there is something artificial-looking about them to my eye. This is probably due to their "griddled then broiled" technology. Given the unusual, quirky system in use at Otto, that's probably as close as they can come to the real thing. I still don't understand why they chose to reinvent the wheel and go that route instead of going with proven methods, but I bet it has something to do with cutting costs.

There are certainly elements of Otto's style that are closely related to the Neapolitan style. These elements have mostly to do with the toppings and the size, however, and not much to do with the crust. So I suppose the pizza might be reminiscent of the Neapolitan stule with respect to these elements. The thing is... the crust is the game. If the crust isn't right, the pizza isn't right. Re Otto, I think the pizza there is much thinner and crisper, without of the pliable puffyness that can be seen in Neapolitan pizza. Really, Otto pizza is a thing unto itself. A good comparison is to look at it like this: As you can see, the edge of the Otto crust is thin and cracker-like without any discernable effects of leavening whereas the Trianon crust has blistered puffyness at the cornicione, and overall looks much softer and more pliable. The Otto crust looks like it's barely leavened. Have you, by any chance, been to Napoli? "Alleged" is a good word to use, because I don't think a pizza can satisfy the DOC requirements unless it is baked in a wood-fired "beehive" oven. Then again, the DOC regulations don't cary any legal weight over here, so Mario can call it a "DOC" pizza and no one will do anything about it.

Dryden, I think you'll find that just about everything on average is substantially more expensive here than it is in the South and Midwest. We are able to pay those prices because people here tend to earn substantially more than people in the South and Midwest on average. It all balances out in the end. The nice thing for us is that when we travel our of town it seems like everything is on sale.

There is a neo-Neapolitan Italian style that is found almost everywhere (e.g., thin crusted individual sized pizza, but without so much blistering and puffing up at the cornicione), but I've even seen what struck me as more or less American pizza in a few places. The variation of toppings on baked flat-ish bread is infinite, I suppose.

Pomodorino a piennolo. Also here. Good information and pictures here. Pomodorino del Piennolo del Vesuvio are DOP.

GREAT thread, Moby! I hardly know what to add except jealousy, of course. I think a lot of the soft, pliable texture and fairly pale color (contrasting with the crisp, brown, blistered cornicione and great oven spring) has to do with their use of soft, hyper-refined 00 flour. Most pizzerie in America use a much stronger flour and consequently have to cut the dough with fat in order to make it tender enough to eat. Even Franny's uses high gluten flour. This use of strong flour (which makes sense for an American pizzeria, what with America being the world's leading supplier of strong flour and all) works more towards an overall crispness, "snap" and chewyness rather than tender pliability. Oh, and I am naturallt honored to have a pizza crust evaluation scale named after me.

I have a hard time believing that 20 wood-burning barbecue pits produce an appreciable amount of air pollution in a city of that size. That said, barbecue smoke is particularly troublesome because it is a grease-laden smoke, and this is the worst kind of particulate. There should be some relatively measures that can be implemented that will cut down the particulates considerably -- especially when compared to the current measures which are, well, nothing.

Okay guys... we've had fun playing around, but let's get back on topic. We have a real question before us.

Dude, it predates the 1770s.

Given the source I found above, I think it seems fairly clear that "having a barbeque" is something that goes back several hundred years in the US. I think it's probably a regional thing. I think they've been writing "BBQ" in Texas for a long, long time. Since it is fairly easy to understand how "BBQ" came from "barbecue" (with the "Q" representing the last syllable") my guess is that "barbeque" came from "BBQ."

Very interesting information here on the etymology of "barbecue." Most interesting and most pertinent to this discussion was the following:

Oh, I agree it's come into the vernacular to mean grilling over charcoal briquettes -- most likely everywhere, including Boston. I just wonder when this started happening. Do many of us remember "barbeque" having the meaning "backyard grilling" back in the 70s?

I grew up in the Northeast (Boston) but have roots and spent much time in two major barbeque epicenters (Texas and NC). According to my childhood memories (the 70s), whenever I heard the word "barbeque" in TX or NC, it meant the real thing. In Boston, when someone was grilling in the back yard it was called a "cook out." I never heard the word "barbeque" in Boston.

One substantial style that was missing -- and without which I thought the BABBP was incomplete as a survey of American BBQ -- was mutton, which I believe is an Owensboro specialty. I'd love to see some of that next year.

Watching Fat Guy pick a whole hog was definitely the highlight of the event.

What are the advantages of using infused simple syrup as opposed to using infused alcohol? For example, how would these two drinks taste different: 2.0 oz : white rum 1.0 oz : lime juice 0.5 oz : mint-infused simple syrup 2.0 oz : mint-infused white rum 1.0 oz : lime juice 0.5 oz : simple syrup Obviously, in a bar situation it makes sense to just do they syrup, because you're not tying up an entire bottle of booze with the infusion. I'm just wondering whether there are any flavor differences.

Interesting to see such a diversity of opinions. I thought Mitchell's Whole Hog was operating at a level head and shoulders above what anyone else there was doing. Then again, I've spent a lot of time in North Carolina over the years and I understand the style very well. It's definitately not what most NYers would expect as "barbeque." Second to Mitchell's, I thought, was the brisket from K.C. Baron. Big Bob's I liked -- and certainly it is a more familiar style to most around here -- but I thought it was nowhere near Mitchell's.