slkinsey

Oh? Should it say "cheddar style cheese" unless the cheese comes from Cheddar, England?

Steven, those new pictures are certainly a lot closer to what I would think of as a Neapolitan style than the first one. Still, they don't show the signs of the explosive action on the crust that one gets in a hot Neapolitan oven, and there is something artificial-looking about them to my eye. This is probably due to their "griddled then broiled" technology. Given the unusual, quirky system in use at Otto, that's probably as close as they can come to the real thing. I still don't understand why they chose to reinvent the wheel and go that route instead of going with proven methods, but I bet it has something to do with cutting costs.

There are certainly elements of Otto's style that are closely related to the Neapolitan style. These elements have mostly to do with the toppings and the size, however, and not much to do with the crust. So I suppose the pizza might be reminiscent of the Neapolitan stule with respect to these elements. The thing is... the crust is the game. If the crust isn't right, the pizza isn't right. Re Otto, I think the pizza there is much thinner and crisper, without of the pliable puffyness that can be seen in Neapolitan pizza. Really, Otto pizza is a thing unto itself. A good comparison is to look at it like this: As you can see, the edge of the Otto crust is thin and cracker-like without any discernable effects of leavening whereas the Trianon crust has blistered puffyness at the cornicione, and overall looks much softer and more pliable. The Otto crust looks like it's barely leavened. Have you, by any chance, been to Napoli? "Alleged" is a good word to use, because I don't think a pizza can satisfy the DOC requirements unless it is baked in a wood-fired "beehive" oven. Then again, the DOC regulations don't cary any legal weight over here, so Mario can call it a "DOC" pizza and no one will do anything about it.

Dryden, I think you'll find that just about everything on average is substantially more expensive here than it is in the South and Midwest. We are able to pay those prices because people here tend to earn substantially more than people in the South and Midwest on average. It all balances out in the end. The nice thing for us is that when we travel our of town it seems like everything is on sale.

There is a neo-Neapolitan Italian style that is found almost everywhere (e.g., thin crusted individual sized pizza, but without so much blistering and puffing up at the cornicione), but I've even seen what struck me as more or less American pizza in a few places. The variation of toppings on baked flat-ish bread is infinite, I suppose.

Pomodorino a piennolo. Also here. Good information and pictures here. Pomodorino del Piennolo del Vesuvio are DOP.

GREAT thread, Moby! I hardly know what to add except jealousy, of course. I think a lot of the soft, pliable texture and fairly pale color (contrasting with the crisp, brown, blistered cornicione and great oven spring) has to do with their use of soft, hyper-refined 00 flour. Most pizzerie in America use a much stronger flour and consequently have to cut the dough with fat in order to make it tender enough to eat. Even Franny's uses high gluten flour. This use of strong flour (which makes sense for an American pizzeria, what with America being the world's leading supplier of strong flour and all) works more towards an overall crispness, "snap" and chewyness rather than tender pliability. Oh, and I am naturallt honored to have a pizza crust evaluation scale named after me.

I have a hard time believing that 20 wood-burning barbecue pits produce an appreciable amount of air pollution in a city of that size. That said, barbecue smoke is particularly troublesome because it is a grease-laden smoke, and this is the worst kind of particulate. There should be some relatively measures that can be implemented that will cut down the particulates considerably -- especially when compared to the current measures which are, well, nothing.

Okay guys... we've had fun playing around, but let's get back on topic. We have a real question before us.

Dude, it predates the 1770s.

Given the source I found above, I think it seems fairly clear that "having a barbeque" is something that goes back several hundred years in the US. I think it's probably a regional thing. I think they've been writing "BBQ" in Texas for a long, long time. Since it is fairly easy to understand how "BBQ" came from "barbecue" (with the "Q" representing the last syllable") my guess is that "barbeque" came from "BBQ."

Very interesting information here on the etymology of "barbecue." Most interesting and most pertinent to this discussion was the following:

Oh, I agree it's come into the vernacular to mean grilling over charcoal briquettes -- most likely everywhere, including Boston. I just wonder when this started happening. Do many of us remember "barbeque" having the meaning "backyard grilling" back in the 70s?

I grew up in the Northeast (Boston) but have roots and spent much time in two major barbeque epicenters (Texas and NC). According to my childhood memories (the 70s), whenever I heard the word "barbeque" in TX or NC, it meant the real thing. In Boston, when someone was grilling in the back yard it was called a "cook out." I never heard the word "barbeque" in Boston.

One substantial style that was missing -- and without which I thought the BABBP was incomplete as a survey of American BBQ -- was mutton, which I believe is an Owensboro specialty. I'd love to see some of that next year.

Watching Fat Guy pick a whole hog was definitely the highlight of the event.

What are the advantages of using infused simple syrup as opposed to using infused alcohol? For example, how would these two drinks taste different: 2.0 oz : white rum 1.0 oz : lime juice 0.5 oz : mint-infused simple syrup 2.0 oz : mint-infused white rum 1.0 oz : lime juice 0.5 oz : simple syrup Obviously, in a bar situation it makes sense to just do they syrup, because you're not tying up an entire bottle of booze with the infusion. I'm just wondering whether there are any flavor differences.

Interesting to see such a diversity of opinions. I thought Mitchell's Whole Hog was operating at a level head and shoulders above what anyone else there was doing. Then again, I've spent a lot of time in North Carolina over the years and I understand the style very well. It's definitately not what most NYers would expect as "barbeque." Second to Mitchell's, I thought, was the brisket from K.C. Baron. Big Bob's I liked -- and certainly it is a more familiar style to most around here -- but I thought it was nowhere near Mitchell's.

FYI, from The Villager:

Suzanne, are you looking for the spelling of general names (e.g., "triple sec") or the spelling of brand names (e.g., "Cointreau")?

I think star ratings are useful as a shorthand way of describing a kind of restaurant in terms of the whole package. If one says, "I ate at Cafe Pierre the other day... it's a three star seafood place" people can immediately begin to form some idea about the style of cooking, the setting and the price.

We might not know because the NY Times system is flawed and most of the reviews don't explain the reason for the stars as Bruni did. Didn't Bruni say Babbo has four-star food? So there's one. Well... his review implied that Babbo might have four star food. Although I have been playing Devil's Advocate a bit to stir up the pot, I don't really think the food at Babbo is entirely in keeping with the current model for four star food. Henry's End, Chanterelle, Blue Hill, Nobu, Grocery, Aquavit and if continues it impress I would consider Landmarc. Sparks deserves a thought and I'm sure a lot of people (not me however) would include Luger. And I'm sure there a quite a few more. This may be where the disconnect lies. You are describing places that serve good food, but what is "four star" about their food? Look... I love Landmarc, really love it. But by no stretch of the imagination are they serving four star food. It's ridiculous to even suggest that "mussels or steak with your choice of 5 different sauces" and "sweetbreads with crunchy green beans" are in the same category as what comes out of the kitchen at ADNY.

It's an interesting question. I can't think of any.

Exactly. The fourth star includes ambiance, among a whole host of other prerequisites. If four stars simply stood for "really good food" we'd have a lot more of them.

But it isn't only about the food. It never has been and never will be. I think there is a valid point to be made that there is a qualitative difference between having the same dish in different surroundings. Part of the four star experience certainly has to do not only with the attractiveness of the space, but the sound level, how comfortable and spacious the settings are, the style and pace of service, the quality of the flatware and glassware, etc. There is no doubt in my mind that one would have an entirely different experience eating a tuna and fiddlehead dish in a crowded, noisy, less than optimally comfortable restaurant in 1 hour as opposed to having the same dish as part of a 5 course meal in a spacious, quiet, comfortable restaurant where the table is yours for the night, real linen on the table and in your lap, eating off of fine china, using silver flatware and sipping a wine the expert sommelier helped you match to your food out of a Riedel glass. Not only would the meal itself be a radically different experience, but perceptual and social psychology strongly suggest that your subjective perception of the exact same dish would be rather different as well.