[Dollars for donuts]

A lot of sticker shock has to do with location. If you compare NYC to, say, Raleigh-Durham... employers in Raleigh-Durham make around 17% less than they do in NYC, and the cost of living is around 42% lower in Raleigh-Durham. This means that NYers are used to paying higher prices and are used to spending more money in general.

I think another part of it was touched on by Seth when he said, "A perfect croissant, for example, is a thing of beauty, and I'll pay whatever it costs. . . . I just questioned whether the lowly donut was really worth such devotion or cost." I've noticed that a lot of people have a similar attitude about pizza. At some point, one has to experience a paradigm shift with respect to foods that are generally regarded as "cheap."

NB. Salary and cost of living information from the salary.com cost of living wizard.

[Is 2004 the year the NYC pizza world changed?]

But as far as the crust goes for instance, its basically flour, water and yeast. What can be gourmet there?

I don't necessarily think it's a matter of being "gourmet" -- I just think it's a matter of being consistently superior in execution. There can certainly be some minor differences in recipe: Una Pizza Napolitana maintains a natural leaven, I think, and other places may use hard flour and oil while others may use soft flour and no oil, etc. But of course much of it comes down to technical execution. How well trained is the pizzaiolo? How well does he know the oven? Are they keeping the oven hot enough? Do the dough, ingredients, deployment of ingredients and pizzaiolo's expertise combine to consistently produce an exceptional and distinctive pizza?

For example, let's take Totonno's... Now, I'm not saying that the pizza isn't good. But it also strikes me that it could be a lot better. Our main quibble when the Survey visited Totonno's was that the pizze were too wet. Too many wet ingredients had a clear and negative effect on the quality of the crust, which didn't particularly display the "coal oven effect" one would like to see. I also have concerns that they are not maintaining the oven at a sufficiently high temperature. The pizze we had at Totonno's took over ten minutes to cook, whereas pizza in Patsy's consistently high-temperature oven take 2-3 minutes at most. This is a case, in my opinion, where the quality ingredients are there but the execution is lacking. Is Totonno's slipping? Well, I didn't go there back in the "glory days," but among those who did the general consensus seems to be that it is.

Fundamentally making pizza shouldn't be rocket science. But the skill of the pizziaolo makes a big difference. This is why Di Fara turns out such a quality product despite the fact that his equipment is nothing special. And this brings up a good point: in most of the new places, the pizzaioli are the owners. At Franny's Andrew Feinberg is back there making your pizza and keeping the oven stoked; at Fornino Michael Ayoub is right there making sure everything is right; at Una Pizza Napoletana it's Anthony Mangieri making your pizza. This means that the person most directly responsible for making your pizza is not only highly trained and dedicated, but is also the person most personally invested in turning out an outstanding product. I recall reading (I think in Reinhardt's "American Pie") about a conversation with Alice Waters in which she says that the single biggest challenge in making quality pizza at her place is retaining someone with experience and training at the pizzaiolo station. Not for nothing did the reports of a decline at Totonno's start happening right around the time the younger generation took over.

I think it boils down to recipe, technique, and procedure (oven, rising, etc) - and those things shouldn't be making the price of the pizza so much higher.

Of course theres the supply-demand thing, rent/location, etc to consider as well.

Cost is definitely a legitimate quibble. A plain mozzarella/tomato pizza at Totonno will run you $16.50, as will a pizza with fresh mozzarella at Patsy's. Grimaldi's is $14. Currently Franny's has a pizza with buffalo mozzarella and tomato for $13, and the pizze at Una Pizza Napoletana run around $17. Given the smaller size of the artisinal pizze, the old school places clearly offer more bang for the buck. That said, the difference in cost between, say, Patsy's and Franny's isn't all that much, considering the thin lightness of Patsy's product and the fact that Franny's is using buffalo mozzarella.

It's also fair, I think, to consider the other costs and how the different places are handling those costs. All the old-school places, with the exception of Patsy's East Harlem, are in my opinion skimping on the oven fuel to the clear detriment of the oven temperature. This may be due to a lack of knowledge and technique on the part of the oven man and pizzaiolo, or it may be a cost-saving measure to maintain a certain price point. Patsy's, the only old school place with a consistently hot oven, has the advantage of owning their building, and their tax assessment is probably not that high given the East Harlem location. Coincidence? Maybe.

Fundamentally, I suppose, it comes down to whether one has the mindset that pizza is a cheap food or whether there are certain circumstances where it can be worth the money to pay more. Certainly we seem to accept that some places charge a lot more for a burger than others, based to a certain extend on better execution and the use of higher quality ingredients. But for someone who views pizza or burgers as fundamentally an inexpensive food, the price can represent a barrier.

I'm not saying, by the way, that the new school places are intrinsically better than the old school places. Just that they seem to be achieving on a higher level right now and seem to have taken some of the shine off the old school places that have largely been coasting of late.

I just saw this Gothamist article that I thought added some interesting points:

Grimaldi's vs. Una Pizza Napoletana: Old-School New York Pizza Goes Up Against the New Kid In Town

First we heard rumblings on eGullet. Then we got the first review from our favorite pizza blog, Slice NY. Next things got official when The New York Times, New York magazine, and the Village Voice weighed in, too.

They were all speaking of the East Village's newest pizzeria, Una Pizza Napoletana, a place whose owner, Anthony Mangieri, claimed, "n my opinion, there's no good pizza" in New York. Given the hallowed history of New York pizza . . . them's fightin' words, for sure.

+ + +

If forced to choose a winner, Gothamist would go with Una Pizza Napoletana. Those added touches of flavor were subtle but distinct in such a way that made the pizza transcend greatness and achieve some sort of Platonic Ideal.

Cool to see that we got our props.

[Cutting Boards]

One of the benefits to using woods like maple is the natural antibacterial nature of wood.  Bacteria will be absorbed in the wood fibers where they will perish.

that's what i was told here on egullet, but:

http://www.securityworld.com/library/healt...oardsafety.html

not that i think it's that important. follow the basic rule of different boards for different stuff, and you're about as safe as you can be.

To be honest, I think a lot of that is hooey. When I was growing up my mother used one wooden cutting board for everything, and she didn't go to any great lengths to sanitize it after it was used to cut meat. Salmonella and other meat-related sicknesses in our family over the course of 20 years? Zero. Similarly, I use end grain cutting boards exclusively in my kitchen, although I do go to greaster lengths to prevent cross-contamination. While preparing any given meal I do not use the same cutting surface for meat and any ingredients that will be consumed raw, I wash/dry any cutting board used for meat with soap and water, and I often spray the board down with a mild bleach solution before I put it away. But I certainly wouldn't avoid using the same cutting board for salad vegetables today that I used for chicken yesterday. Salmonella and other meat-related sicknesses arising from my kitchen over 10+ years of this practice? Zero.

If one maintains a reasonably clean kitchen and buys good quality meat, I just don't think this is a problem worth worrying about.

[Cutting Boards]

slkinsey, sorry if I caused offense there.  The point I was trying to make (not very well) was that it's possible to get a functional cutting board for less money.  There's nothing about eG that precludes recommending inexpensive solutions.

No offense taken here. Mostly what I disagree with is Jack's assertion that, "if your knife dulls chopping on wood, then there is a problem with your knife." This is simply not true, as some wood cutting boards are better for a knife's edge than others.

I agree with you about inexpensive solutions. I have a bunch of end grain cutting boards I picked up for around 25 bucks each at Ikea (unfortunately, the end grain cutting boards they sell now do not seem to be as good as they were 4-5 years ago). But there does come a point in the search for top quality where the price goes North of "inexpensive."

[Cutting Boards]

Jackel10 speaks the truth.  Most of the world somehow manages to chop veg without $65 boards. 

For home use, almost any of the boards suggested in this thread will work fine and last for years.

Most of the world has crappy dull knives, too. But really this is not a valid argument -- especially for a place like the eGS. It's like saying, "most of the world manages to cook food without a fancy sauté pan."

Anyway, it seems clear to me that end grain is demonstrably better.

[Bourbon and Milk]

Milk punch (milk, bourbon and sugar over ice with nutmeg) was once a very well known drink. For example, in Act I of Puccini's Madama Butterfly (written and set in 1904) Sharpless offers Pinkerton a drink by asking, "milk-punch o wisky?" Puccini would never have used this text were milk punch not something with which his audiences would have been familiar.

[Bianca]

Cathy-Ann,

One thing I'l say about Bianca that IMO goes against "romantic" is that it is almost always crowded and noisy.

[Patsy's Pizzeria]

. . . Patsy's, which is probably too busy dealing with its bloating reputation, isn't mentioned.

Bloating is how I would describe what I do to myself every time I go to Patsy's.

[Is 2004 the year the NYC pizza world changed?]

There really is no old school pizzeria in NYC that has the combination of a consistently outstanding crust and high quality ingredients the way the new places do.

I've never had a bad pie at Totonnos in Bklyn.

Really? I suppose it depends on what features of a pizza one assigns the most importance. In my world, it's 80% about the crust and 20% about the other stuff. When the NY Pizza Survey went there I think we all had the impression that the pizza was a little soupy and as a result the crust was not everything it could have been. I wouldn't say that I've had a bad pizza at Totonno's, but I've certainly had pizza there that didn't strike me as exceptional in their class. It is also worthy of note that there were substantial variations in quality even among the dozen or so pizze we ordered in that one trip. More to the point, I wouldn't say that Totonno's is offering top quality ingredients in any category the way they are at places like Fornino, Una Pizza Napoletana, Franny's, et al.

Whether one prefers the "new NYC school" over the "old NYC school" or even over more or less traditional pizzerie operating at a high level (e.g., Di Fara) is going to be a matter of preference and taste. Some people cannot abide paying the prices that go along with the more expensive ingredients and process of the new NYC school. Some people prefer the more doughy crust and copious toppings of the mainstream American places. And some people prefer certain venues simply because of personal fondness and loyalty.

It seems to me an obvious conclusion that most of the old NYC school places are either slipping or stagnating. Are John's and Lombardi's now even good, never mind great? By far the most consistently good old NYC school place is the East Harlem Patsy's, but one cannot help wondering what they could do with higher quality toppings like they use at Grimaldi's. Part of what NY Metro seems to be suggesting, and I wonder if they don't have a point, is whether the new NYC school places are going to supplant the old NYC school places as the leading lights in NYC pizza cookery.

Patsy's is excellent.  Could it it add better, fresher toppings?  Sure, it would be nice.  But to the pizza cognoscenti, do toppings really matter?

I agree that Patsy's is excellent. I go there as often as I can. But I do think they could be a lot more excelent if so many of their toppings didn't suck. And I think they could be even more excellent than that if they offered more interesting toppings like, for example, prosciutto or fresh (actually probably frozen) artichokes like they do at Di Fara.

I don't think good toppings will elevate what is at base a mediocre pizza. But I do think that good toppings can elevate what is at base an excellent pizza, and for sure I think that bad topings can drag down what started off as an excellent pizza.

I for one, would hate to see Patsy's close its coal fired oven, because I think the quality of their pies is excellent, even amongst the new "upper crust."

Thankfully, I don't think we have to worry about that. Patsy's is always going to be miles better than Ray's, Famous Ray's, Original Ray's, Famous Original Ray's, Original Famous Ray's, etc. where most of NYC buys its pizza.

[Cutting Boards]

End grain is fine, but unnecessary for a cutting board.  The reason they make them out of end grain is because it's an easy way to use up scraps so it's cheap.  For a heavy duty industrial floor that will have iron wheeled carts running over it, end grain is great.  For a cutting board, it's overkill.  But if that's what she wants that's fine with me.

I have to say that I disagree with you 100% on this one. End grain is very important for a cutting board, and this is why: with an end grain cutting board, the wood fibers part and provide a relatively soft surface for the edge of the knife. This means less wear and tear on the edge, which ultimately means longer life and better performance out of the knife.

Here is a "closeup" graphic illustrating a knife on an end grain cutting board. Note how the fibers part for the edge of the knife.

Here is a graphic of a knive on a "cross grain" cutting board. This is a much harder cutting surface. Note how there is nowhere for the edge to go unless it cuts through the wod fibers. Note how the very end of the edge bends against the board.

I would never want to use a cutting board that wasn't end grain.

[The Eighteenth Century Cocktail]

How do you think it would work with Gosling's?

Great, I bet. They're both rich dark heavy rums.

[Franny's]

Franny's is mentioned in a very interesting NY Metro article on the current trend towards Italian-style wood oven "artisinal" pizza in NYC (eG discussion thread here).

A good brick oven and expert technique help, too, and chef Andrew Feinberg has it down. Witness his super-crisp, deeply charred, almost medieval crust, masterfully topped. . .

I'm going there this evening.

[Is 2004 the year the NYC pizza world changed?]

There is a very interesting article in the recent NY Magazine. The jist of the article is this: The old school NYC coal-oven places have been resting on their laurels for too long, and quality is in the decline. Into this vacuum have come a number of "new NYC school" wood-burning pizzerie, serving individual pizze in the Italian style, with "artisinal" ingredients and approach.

Here are some relevant quotes:

It Happened This Year: A Guide to 2004

Pizza Got a New Upper Crust.

A new generation of pie-makers is righting the wrongs perpetrated by coal-oven complacency.

Like just about every other edible thing in New York, pizza has gone artisanal. A feisty new flock of pizzaiuoli are making their own cheese (or importing mozzarella di bufala from Italy), growing their own herbs and greens, curing their own pepperoni. Pizza is suddenly serious business. And just in time: . . . the great old New York pizza places . . . have increasingly been caught coasting on their bloated reputations and gone-haywire Zagat ratings.

The pizzaiuoli of 2004 consider themselves traditionalists, and, with the exception of Di Fara’s Manhattan spinoff, De Marco’s, look more to Naples than to New York for inspiration.

Featured are small writeups of Franny's, Fornino, De Marco’s, Peperoncino, and Una Pizza Napoletana.

So, have the "new NYC school" places come to the fore as the leaders in NY pizza? As a charter member of the NY Pizza Survey, I have to say that I think there is something to this. There really is no old school pizzeria in NYC that has the combination of a consistently outstanding crust and high quality ingredients the way the new places do. I love Patsy's and Grimaldi's (the best of the old-school places, in my opinion) but . . . Many of Patsy's toppings are old school in a bad way, such as their tasteless watery canned olives. And Grimaldi's crust is maddeningly inconsistent, being almost-as-good-as-Patsy's one visit and just-better-than-Ray's the next. Both these places have maybe 3 pizza configurations that can be truly outstanding. Franny's, on the other hand, hits the bull's eye every time, and with the manu changing on a weekly basis, there is no chance of getting bored.

[Patsy's Pizzeria]

Both Mr. Schwartz and New York Magazine are clearly only referring to the Patsy's in East Harlem, because both make mention of the imposters and discredit them.

This is a shame, then, because it implies either shoddy editing or reportage. Since when has Patsy's East Harlem not served slices?

The online version of the NY magazine article:

. . . Wth notable exceptions, like the Coney Island Totonno’s and relative newcomer Nick’s, the great old New York pizza places—Lombardi’s, John’s, and Patsy’s—have increasingly been caught coasting on their bloated reputations and gone-haywire Zagat ratings.

That they would say that the Coney Island Totonno's is still going strong while Patsy's East Harlem is coasting into decline is, in my opinion, patently ridiculous. Or, if it is true, then Patsy's East Harlem must have really been a lot better than Totonno's back in the day to be in decline and yet still so much better today.

No argument from me with respect to Lombardi's and John's.

[Eating New York]

Great start, Justin. I'm looking forward to seeing what happens through this journey. What are your expectations in terms of personal/professional growth through this series of meals?

[rm (Closed)]

rm has a nice web site that features, among other things, a page with pfds of all their major reviews.

[Patsy's Pizzeria]

This might depend on which Patsy's one is talking about. As eGS members in the know are aware, there is a big difference between the real Patsy's in East Harlem and the imposters using the same name. At one point I was told that the other Patsy's restaurants aren't even "branches" in the sense of being under the same ownership and management as the original -- they only licensed the name.

Anyway... the East Harlem Patsy's does serve slices. As far as I know, the imposters do not.

[THE BEST: Chinatown Dim Sum]

Across from Big Wong, you say?

Now that I think about it, it might be on the same side as Big Wong. I know I'm not being very helpful. But I also imagine there are better places for dim sum... and I want to hear about them.

[Monosodium Glutamate/MSG: The Topic]

Sam - is this not what I said? Maybe I didn't express it clearly.

More likely I didn't read carefully. We certainly seem to be on the same page.

[Bergamot oranges are in season]

I'll definitely be checking Fairway and Whole Foods here in NYC. How long does the season last?

[Bergamot oranges are in season]

Muuuuuuust fiiiiiiiind bergamooooooooooots.

[Is this real?]

Very interesting, Myers. And it makes a lot more sense when you see it as "rumfustian" rather than "rum fustian."

Some interesting information here, including the following:

. . . the word rum in this word and in rumbooze and in rumfustian did not mean rum; it meant the gypsy adjective powerful. Rumbooze or rambooze, distinctly a gypsy word, and an English university drink also, is made of eggs, ale, wine, and sugar. Rumfustian was made of a quart of strong beer, a bottle of white wine or sherry, half a pint of gin, the yolks of twelve eggs, orange peel, nutmeg, spices, and sugar. Rum-barge is another mixed drink of gypsy name. It will be noted that none of these contains any rum.

[Is this real?]

With the inclusion of copious amounts of dark rum, it sounds not all that different from egg nog. Back in the old days, it was relatively common to make alcoholic libations that included eggs. After being mixed, the drinks would then be warmed/thickened via the insersion of a hot loggerhead (an iron tool consisting of a long handle terminating in a ball or bulb that is heated and used to melt tar or to heat liquids).

[THE BEST: Chinatown Dim Sum]

Jo-Mel's post got me wondering about dim sum in Chinatown. What are the best places? Any favorites? Expensive? Cheap? Carts? No carts?

I've often ended up at a small, narrow place -- the name of which I've never known -- more or less across the street from Big Wong on Mott. There is a neon sign in the window that says "Dim Sum" and they come around with carts. On Saturday late mornings, it always seems to be about 2:1 Chinese:tourists/shoppers. Generally a little funkier and downscale than Dim Sum A Go Go, but feels more "authentic" to me.

What are your favorites?

[recipe/technique for lardo and nduja?]

At the macelleria, kidney = rognone

At the ospedale, kidney = rene

I am not aware of any cured sausage made with kidneys.