slkinsey

I would say that is not a correct assumption under most circumstances. If, for example, you are roasting something on a rack, the thermal properties of the roasting pan are nearly irrelevant. Roasting is not about the pan cooking the food; it's about the air in the oven cooking the food and the pan is there mostly to secure whatever is roasting and to catch drippings. I agree with this for the most part. It's true that the thermal properties of the roasting pan make very little difference when one is roasting. It's not quite accurate to say that it makes no difference, because tests (and my own personal experience) have shown that dark colored anodized aluminum roasting pans provide more browning than light colored stainless roasting pans. But it's a minute difference. Mostly what you want is something reasonably sturdy and heavy. I wouldn't worry too much about whether it is clad aluminum or anything like that. All-Clad no doubt stopped using fully clad aluminum for its roasting pans because they realized they could charge the same for just stainless and it didn't affect the performance at all. The reason you want something reasonably heavy and sturdy is simply so it doesn't bend or warp when you lift the roast our of the oven. It also helps the pan's versatility, because you can use the pan as a bain marie while cooking a bunch of miniature soufflés, you can use it as a pan for lasagne al forno, and so on. As others have pointed out upthread, you're really better off using a copiously preheated heavy frypan for those instances when you are roasting a fairly small food item (say, 3-4 pound spatchcocked chicken) and you want to take advantage of convection heat from the pan as well as radiant heat from the oven.

Sounds great. If only I knew someplace in NYC or Houston to find Torani Amer...

Right. The one with calvados is called Fallen Leaves, and is credited to Charles Schumann in 1982. The one with reisling is called Falling Leaves, and was created by Audrey Saunders not long ago. This thread is cross-polinated into Drinkboy's forums in this thread by Myers.

Funny. The thread on Drinkboy's (very good) forums references this very thread for info on the Falling Leaves Cocktail.

More specifically, it is an article by someone who sells gas pizza ovens for a living, and has a vested interest in making it seem like gas can compete with wood and coal. It is also worthy of note that he is not talking about regular gas deck pizza ovens. These are special (and very expensive) ovens specifically designed to mimic wood burning pizza ovens. The one argument he makes for gas with which I completely agree is that "you don’t have to be a rocket scientist to master a wood-burning oven, but getting things right does require a bit of training and labor, which many employers are reluctant to provide." A lack of training does go a long way to explain the mediocre pizza some of the wood and coal places serve. But the bulk of his argument seems to be that wood fired ovens are the best, but these special gas fired "faux wood" ovens are almost as good and a lot simpler to use. The bottom line is this: standard gas-fired pizza ovens go up to a maximum of 550F, whereas a properly fired coal- or wood-fired masonry pizza oven will be between 750F and 840F. This is a huge and significant difference, and as a result there are things that are possible with a coal- or wood-fired masonry pizza oven that are simply not possible with a gas-fired oven. This fact alone suggests that that the assertion "ovens are basically ovens" cannot possibly be true unless one believes that there is no difference between 550F and 750F when it comes to making pizza. Now... different does not necessarily mean better, depending on one's tastes. A medium thick, "Ray's style" pizza cannot be made well in a hot coal- or wood-fired oven. So, for someone for whom pizza is mostly about the toppings and lots of them, the oven makes much less difference since they're all going to be using standard gas-fired deck pizza ovens at right around the same temperature.

Cool. What copper pieces did you get? The Calphalon, btw, is not "real" copper. It's a thin outer layer of copper, an internal core of aluminum, and an inner layer of stainless.

Hmmm... I was almost sure you had a regular NYC recirculating hood. Anyway, if you put it next to an open window when you roast, it makes a big difference in terms of smoke,

aliénor, E. Dehillerin can provide great deals but for people in the US it's only really worth it if they are able to bring it back to the US themselves. For example, Falk's eleven inch sauté pan sells in the US for $235. E. Dehillerin sells one for €113.88, which comes out to about $155 with today's credit card exchange rate. So far, so good. It's a savings of 80 dollars. But, you have to ship it over to the US and you have to pay tax. The cost of shipping a 4.08 kg pan from Paris to New York, plus tax, is more than 80 dollars.

This is not true, despite what he may have said. While it is true that a coal or wood burning oven doesn't necessarily produce a better result than a regular gas oven, it is also a fact that there are some things one can do with a superhot coal or wood oven that is impossible with gas. Think about it: in order to produce that crisp crust, places like Di Fara have to bake the pizza for around ten times longer than places like Patsy's East Harlem. That means that the toppings will be much more cooked and substantially more water will have evaporated from the crust of the gas oven pizza. This is one reason why the crust of a gas oven pizza can never have that ethereal, soft, extensible light inner layer between the crisp bottom and the toppings, and also why the gat oven pizza can never compete with coal or wood on oven spring. That some places are able to produce crusts that compete with some of the coal oven pizza in NYC speaks more of the skills of the pizzaioli in the respective pizzerie than it does the potential of the respective technologies they employ. Without a doubt this is the single most important variable.

Totally different experience, atmosphere and price point. Bianca is very good, but it's not really a "destination" restaurant. It's a very good neighborhood restaurant.

Definitely the best place in town. I'll be going back again this xmas.

Southside Place (just South of Rice University). I've been to Rice Epicurean and Whole Foods. No dice (although Whole Foods did have Kaffir limes).

Any ideas where I might find bergamot oranges or Seville oranges in Houston? I'm here for the next 8 days and would like to try some things with bergamots.

What's the zest like? Would "bergamotcello" be interesting?

FWIW, I think the food is better at Bianca. A real telltale is the chicken liver dish, which is always perfect at Bianca and always just a little overcooked at Celeste.

I don't get why anyone would want to drink one of these curdled drinks. A dare? They sound like horrible college-kid fare.

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "pie" here, but am assuming it is the crust. I agree with those who suppose that most of the game is in the crust, and that the ingredients should complement but not detract from the full expression of the crust. I also agree with you that Patsy's East Harlem (and only in East Harlem) is operating at a very high level, and doesn't really deserve to be lumped together with places like Lombardi's that are in serious decline. Patsy's is clearly head and shoulders over the other old school places, although Grimaldi's can come close on the rare occasions when they are 100% on top of their game. That said, while one cannot say that Patsy's is in decline, it's not growing and improving either. It's holding steady. Unfortunately (to me) it's holding steady at in the pizza world of the 1980s, when things like black olives that taste like the can were de rigeur. I can't imagine that Patsy Lancieri used ingredients like this back in the day. The crust at Patsy's is definitely still excellent, but the fact is that there are really only two or three pizze they make that are truly excellent, while the others are not nearly on the same level, being brought down by the toppings. All this is to say that I think Patsy's is great and the crust is amazing, but I think they could be even better if they offered better toppings. But, then again, ingredients like better olives, better sausage, maybe something like prosciutto, etc... those things also cost more money, and that might actually cut into their business. As with all ovens, a lot depends on oven management and whether the oven is kept sufficiently hot. That said, a well fired Neapolitan style wood burning "beehive" oven should get up to somewhere between 400C/750F to 450C/840F.

Bizarre. It's not coding properly. Try this: http://www.gothamist.com/archives/2004/12/08/grimaldis_vs_una_pizza_napoletana_oldschool_new_york_pizza_goes_up_against_the_new_kid_in_town.php

A lot of sticker shock has to do with location. If you compare NYC to, say, Raleigh-Durham... employers in Raleigh-Durham make around 17% less than they do in NYC, and the cost of living is around 42% lower in Raleigh-Durham. This means that NYers are used to paying higher prices and are used to spending more money in general. I think another part of it was touched on by Seth when he said, "A perfect croissant, for example, is a thing of beauty, and I'll pay whatever it costs. . . . I just questioned whether the lowly donut was really worth such devotion or cost." I've noticed that a lot of people have a similar attitude about pizza. At some point, one has to experience a paradigm shift with respect to foods that are generally regarded as "cheap." NB. Salary and cost of living information from the salary.com cost of living wizard.

I don't necessarily think it's a matter of being "gourmet" -- I just think it's a matter of being consistently superior in execution. There can certainly be some minor differences in recipe: Una Pizza Napolitana maintains a natural leaven, I think, and other places may use hard flour and oil while others may use soft flour and no oil, etc. But of course much of it comes down to technical execution. How well trained is the pizzaiolo? How well does he know the oven? Are they keeping the oven hot enough? Do the dough, ingredients, deployment of ingredients and pizzaiolo's expertise combine to consistently produce an exceptional and distinctive pizza? For example, let's take Totonno's... Now, I'm not saying that the pizza isn't good. But it also strikes me that it could be a lot better. Our main quibble when the Survey visited Totonno's was that the pizze were too wet. Too many wet ingredients had a clear and negative effect on the quality of the crust, which didn't particularly display the "coal oven effect" one would like to see. I also have concerns that they are not maintaining the oven at a sufficiently high temperature. The pizze we had at Totonno's took over ten minutes to cook, whereas pizza in Patsy's consistently high-temperature oven take 2-3 minutes at most. This is a case, in my opinion, where the quality ingredients are there but the execution is lacking. Is Totonno's slipping? Well, I didn't go there back in the "glory days," but among those who did the general consensus seems to be that it is. Fundamentally making pizza shouldn't be rocket science. But the skill of the pizziaolo makes a big difference. This is why Di Fara turns out such a quality product despite the fact that his equipment is nothing special. And this brings up a good point: in most of the new places, the pizzaioli are the owners. At Franny's Andrew Feinberg is back there making your pizza and keeping the oven stoked; at Fornino Michael Ayoub is right there making sure everything is right; at Una Pizza Napoletana it's Anthony Mangieri making your pizza. This means that the person most directly responsible for making your pizza is not only highly trained and dedicated, but is also the person most personally invested in turning out an outstanding product. I recall reading (I think in Reinhardt's "American Pie") about a conversation with Alice Waters in which she says that the single biggest challenge in making quality pizza at her place is retaining someone with experience and training at the pizzaiolo station. Not for nothing did the reports of a decline at Totonno's start happening right around the time the younger generation took over. Cost is definitely a legitimate quibble. A plain mozzarella/tomato pizza at Totonno will run you $16.50, as will a pizza with fresh mozzarella at Patsy's. Grimaldi's is $14. Currently Franny's has a pizza with buffalo mozzarella and tomato for $13, and the pizze at Una Pizza Napoletana run around $17. Given the smaller size of the artisinal pizze, the old school places clearly offer more bang for the buck. That said, the difference in cost between, say, Patsy's and Franny's isn't all that much, considering the thin lightness of Patsy's product and the fact that Franny's is using buffalo mozzarella. It's also fair, I think, to consider the other costs and how the different places are handling those costs. All the old-school places, with the exception of Patsy's East Harlem, are in my opinion skimping on the oven fuel to the clear detriment of the oven temperature. This may be due to a lack of knowledge and technique on the part of the oven man and pizzaiolo, or it may be a cost-saving measure to maintain a certain price point. Patsy's, the only old school place with a consistently hot oven, has the advantage of owning their building, and their tax assessment is probably not that high given the East Harlem location. Coincidence? Maybe. Fundamentally, I suppose, it comes down to whether one has the mindset that pizza is a cheap food or whether there are certain circumstances where it can be worth the money to pay more. Certainly we seem to accept that some places charge a lot more for a burger than others, based to a certain extend on better execution and the use of higher quality ingredients. But for someone who views pizza or burgers as fundamentally an inexpensive food, the price can represent a barrier. I'm not saying, by the way, that the new school places are intrinsically better than the old school places. Just that they seem to be achieving on a higher level right now and seem to have taken some of the shine off the old school places that have largely been coasting of late. I just saw this Gothamist article that I thought added some interesting points: Cool to see that we got our props.

that's what i was told here on egullet, but: http://www.securityworld.com/library/healt...oardsafety.html not that i think it's that important. follow the basic rule of different boards for different stuff, and you're about as safe as you can be. To be honest, I think a lot of that is hooey. When I was growing up my mother used one wooden cutting board for everything, and she didn't go to any great lengths to sanitize it after it was used to cut meat. Salmonella and other meat-related sicknesses in our family over the course of 20 years? Zero. Similarly, I use end grain cutting boards exclusively in my kitchen, although I do go to greaster lengths to prevent cross-contamination. While preparing any given meal I do not use the same cutting surface for meat and any ingredients that will be consumed raw, I wash/dry any cutting board used for meat with soap and water, and I often spray the board down with a mild bleach solution before I put it away. But I certainly wouldn't avoid using the same cutting board for salad vegetables today that I used for chicken yesterday. Salmonella and other meat-related sicknesses arising from my kitchen over 10+ years of this practice? Zero. If one maintains a reasonably clean kitchen and buys good quality meat, I just don't think this is a problem worth worrying about.

No offense taken here. Mostly what I disagree with is Jack's assertion that, "if your knife dulls chopping on wood, then there is a problem with your knife." This is simply not true, as some wood cutting boards are better for a knife's edge than others. I agree with you about inexpensive solutions. I have a bunch of end grain cutting boards I picked up for around 25 bucks each at Ikea (unfortunately, the end grain cutting boards they sell now do not seem to be as good as they were 4-5 years ago). But there does come a point in the search for top quality where the price goes North of "inexpensive."

Most of the world has crappy dull knives, too. But really this is not a valid argument -- especially for a place like the eGS. It's like saying, "most of the world manages to cook food without a fancy sauté pan." Anyway, it seems clear to me that end grain is demonstrably better.

Milk punch (milk, bourbon and sugar over ice with nutmeg) was once a very well known drink. For example, in Act I of Puccini's Madama Butterfly (written and set in 1904) Sharpless offers Pinkerton a drink by asking, "milk-punch o wisky?" Puccini would never have used this text were milk punch not something with which his audiences would have been familiar.

Cathy-Ann, One thing I'l say about Bianca that IMO goes against "romantic" is that it is almost always crowded and noisy.