Ryan Imgrund
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Posts posted by Ryan Imgrund
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Cold water in the fridge is the fastest of the proven safe methods. Of course cold water can't defrost faster than warm water or hot water. But they haven't been proven safe so I excluded them.Ryan, with respect, I think you're overstating your case. I say this not as an expert - that would be you - but rather as a well-informed consumer of scientific information. Is thawing in the fridge best? Of course. One can even hasten the process by using a cold water bath, as you mentioned in Post #229. But it's not faster (as you originally claimed) than using warm or hot water. The issues are whether whether speed thawing is safe and whether it adversely affects texture. The funny thing is that I don't actually have a dog in this fight, as I rarely cook from frozen and never by speed thawing.
Still, whenever I hear an expert criticizing something as outside best practice, I'm inclined to ask how serious the risk of second best. Bear in mind, as I'm sure you know, there are plenty of food scientists (used to be more) who won't have anything to do with sous vide because it isn't best practice. In particular, they fret over the fact that doing it safely requires careful attention and accurate instruments. Speed thawing is the same, as far as I can tell. The multiple "ifs" you mention in Post #248 aren't all that daunting. Not best method doesn't equal unsafe. As for texture. a very different issue, I tend to agree (which is why I rarely cook from frozen and never by speed thawing), but surely that's a matter as to which individual cooks may draw their own conclusions.
By the way, beating up on McGee because his degree is in English (just a bachelor's, as I recall, not a Ph.D) rather misses the point. He's been reading and writing on food science for over thirty years now. That's no different from how you keep your knowledge up to date. Not saying he's infallible, but he's not just some schlob who somehow got a gig writing articles for the NYT. And, in my observation, McGee tends to be somewhat conservative on food safety issues (e.g., he's the one who called out Ruhlman for claiming reheating stock stored at room temp is sufficient to make it safe).
Like you, I never defrost as I don't buy my meat frozen. I was just putting it out there that cold water in the fridge is one of the fastest of proven safe methods.
I agree with your take on food scientists and sous vide. I myself was hesitant until I found the Sous Vide app and the Baldwin tables. But with rapid thawing in hot water, time is unknown. There IS a risk of over-defrosting which leaves the meat unsafe. With sous vide, you can't over cook - just over-tenderize (which I tested last night with my Anova - chicken breast cooked for 2 hours at 141F is much more palatable than when done for 4.5 hours).
As for McGee, I just know from what I read. And from what I read he took a good study about rapid thawing beef loin and formed conclusions that the authors of the paper wouldn't support. My issue with him is he is sung his expertise in writing to convince others that he is an expert in analyzing scientific studies.
And he IS using his writing to confuse the public. He's done it here by oversimplifying rapid thawing and convincing everyone, without solid evidence, that it's safe for all meats and has no impact on palatability. Proper rapid thawing, as I've described before, MAY be safe if multiple factors are followed and more research was done.
But honestly, you think it's right that he's basing his conclusion on food safety off of just ONE microbiological study? This is enough to completely discredit him to me.
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The defrosting via circulating water immersion is an Anova issue.
1) your soapboxing has nothing to do with the anova, and very little with sous vide in general.Please understand: I come at this from the perspective of a foodborne pathogen expert. McGee is not one, despite how he tries to convey otherwise. I wouldn't even call him a science writer. He is a writer dabbling in interpreting scientific research papers. And doing a poor job at that.
2) you apparently won't be happy until everybody is prepping food in a walkin and the food never spends any time between 9c and 55c for safety reasons, though how you're going to get it past that terrible pathogen divide, I don't know.
3) you say you're coming from the perspective of an expert, what is your PhD in?
4) please explain how taking something from frozen to workable temp in 20 minutes in any way violates acceptable safe food handling practices?
As for pathogens, I eat my salmon at 113F, order my steak rare and sous vide my chicken to 135F. I encourage safe scientifically-proven practices. A food safety article by an English afficianado with an English Lit PhD wrongly interpreting one scientific study is not sound advice.
Bringing frozen food to a workable temp in 20 minutes is okay DEPENDING on what that temp is, what the meat is, what is done with the meat afterwards, etc. You're making the same simplifications as McGee and falsely extrapolating what is safe for beef is safe for other cuts of meat. I'm not saying he's incorrect. I'm saying I encourage further research into the area.
And my expertise? PubMed my name and you'll see it's in Campylobacter with the Public Health Agency of Canada, in the Laboratory for Foodborne Zoonoses.
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I disagree.Overall, too many ifs for it to be the best method.
and apparently so does McGee
anything I WOULD freeze can be brought to temp Sous Vide and finished on another heat method if necessary... plus it's quick enough that there is no REASON to defrost before ready to cook.
McGee's background is English Lit. His formal training is in writing not interpreting scientific results.
McGee is basing his opinion off of ONE research study that has never been replicated. I say one, because the second study he referred to looked only at taste and a mathematical model saying that the chicken would hypothetically have less bacteria when thawed this way compared to being left on a counter for four hours.
Duh.
If you read the main article he is referring to, not just the abstract or his unscientific interpretation, the authors only concluded that rapid thawing is safe for small cuts of intact beef loin. Where did he get all these other meats from???
For him to extrapolate the results of a rapid beef thaw study to other meats is irresponsible. E. coli, Capylobacter, etc., do NOT act the same way when exposed to different temperatures. The fact McGee thinks so exudes scientific negligence.
In terms of taste, more than one study has shown that rapid thawing by >9C water immersion DOES impact quality. One such study found pork refrigerator thawing was superior to 9C water thawing and 14C water thawing when it comes to quality of the meat. Another study found the same thing in carp.
McGee apparently tried this rapid thawing technique with salmon, but made no mention of the temperature or water circulating speed. Did you know that according to UN's FAO, fish should only be rapidly thawed if they are whole? It should never be done on fillets. Also, fish should be thawed at a temperature not exceeding 18C with water travelling at least 5 mm/s.
And isn't it funny how he fails to mention the biggest flaw of rapid thawing? Uneven temperature distribution in the 'defrosted' meat. Not a cook's best friend. Guess it didn't fit his paradigm.
At the end of his article, McGee makes reference to five factors that affect thawing time and thus could lead to premature cooking or unsafe bacteria levels.
How many factors do you have to consider in fridge water immersion thawing? None. Just put a little planning into your meals.
Please understand: I come at this from the perspective of a foodborne pathogen expert. McGee is not one, despite how he tries to convey otherwise. I wouldn't even call him a science writer. He is a writer dabbling in interpreting scientific research papers. And doing a poor job at that.
Anyway, I agree completely with your second point though - if you're cooking sous vide anyway, why defrost? It's truly an unnecessary step.
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It's a good method if you've run out of time, you're cooking your meat sous vide, you don't need your meal done by a specific time AND you intend on cooking the meat immediately upon defrosting.
Harold McGee seems to think otherwise:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/08/dining/a-hot-water-bath-for-thawing-meats-the-curious-cook.html?_r=1&Just to jump in on the defrosting conversation... It is NOT safe to use the Anova as a defrosting tool. The Anova can only heat water, not cool it.
The fastest and best way to defrost is to place the meat in an airtight bag and place it in an ice water bath inside the fridge. The ice ensures that the water begins at a temperature NOT in the danger zone. The fridge ensures that the water temperature moves to a temperature still out of the danger zone. Therefore, no portion of your meat will ever be at an unsafe temperature.
If you have time, the ice water in a fridge will ensure a relatively quick but even defrost - important if not cooking your meat sous vide.
Faster? Definitely.
Safe? Yes, if the water is at the right temperature, constantly circulating and the meat is cooked immediately upon defrosting (unless you're certain the meat is above 32F and less than 45F).
Overall, too many ifs for it to be the best method.
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Just to jump in on the defrosting conversation... It is NOT safe to use the Anova as a defrosting tool. The Anova can only heat water, not cool it.
The fastest and best way to defrost is to place the meat in an airtight bag and place it in an ice water bath inside the fridge. The ice ensures that the water begins at a temperature NOT in the danger zone. The fridge ensures that the water temperature moves to a temperature still out of the danger zone. Therefore, no portion of your meat will ever be at an unsafe temperature.
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Just an update on my unit.
I've done chicken breast and salmon so far. They both tasted excellent. The chicken breast was a thin cutlet and looked processed when it came out. A quick meeting with my MAP-Pro torch fixed that.
I have compared the temperature of the unit, while at 63.3 C, to two other digital thermometers. One read 63.3 and the other was 63.4. I also tried the infamous 63.3 C egg . The yolk was incredible. Resembled custard. Exactly what I expected.
As for my setup, I am using a Rubbermaid polycarbonate bin (style 3304) that is 18x12x9 inches tall. I've cut-out the top to fit the Anova, and placed an upside down storage shelf in the bottom to keep my bags in place.
Trying turkey breast, steak and chicken wings shortly.
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I pre-sear for the appearance and taste when I have a steak cooked medium-rare; when I'm cooking rare, I pre-sear for the added surface pasteurization.
If you like a 20 mm steak at 129 F, your steak will reach this core around 2 hours but it takes 3 hours to pasteurize E. coli. For the same size steak at 138 F, surface E. coli pasteurization will happen before the core reaches this temperature and it'll be done in about an hour.
Personally, I like to take my rare steak out close to when the core reaches the proper temperature.
In the end though, as weedy said, a long enough cook at any temperature above 129 F, will pastuerize the surface anyway.
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I've always pre-seared steaks after they had been frozen for 30 minutes. Not sure if it really reduces over-cooking that much compared to a pre-sear from the fridge.
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I've done the mac n' cheese with gruyere. As have many others, IIRC. So I'm pretty sure that's not the problem.
What you might try is this. I use a different protocol than the published recipe. (Always have.) Rather than blending in the cheese gradually at the end, I combine the liquid and sodium citrate, stir in the cheese and heat everything at the same time, stirring constantly. When the cheese has mostly melted, generally about 150F, I hit it with the immersion blender. Works for me. Easier too, which is the main reason I do it. But I think it might also have the advantage of more gently transitioning the cheese into emulsion.
If you give this a try, do please report your results.
Tried your suggestion last night. Turned out perfect and much easier to do. I'd suggest others making Mac & Cheese to give this slight tweak a whirl.
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I think they are beginning to post wait times: http://anovaculinary.com/products/anova
It now says 15 business days to ship; last week it said 21, so at least some updating is taking place.
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When did you order? I placed my order on the 27th but haven't heard anything about shipping yet.
Ordered on December 30th. Received an email January 2nd saying Anova is experiencing a lead time on all units due to Christmas vacation, but that they'll email a FedEx tracking number when shipped.
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My top 5, in no particular order (except the first one):
1. Red Racer IPA from Vancouver
2. Rhyme and Reason from Burlington, ON
3. Sam Adams Cherry Wheat
4. Aecht Schlenkerla Rauchbier from Germany
5. Krombacher from Germany
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Have tried many recipes the past two weeks, having success with all but Gruyere Mac and Cheese. Had no issues when using White Cheddar and Swiss/Old Cheddar. I could only get the cheese to liquefy when I brought the temp above 70 Celsius.
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I'll take suggestions from people on here other Yelp or Urbanspoon any day.
Nothing worse than seeing food you love being trashed by someone who can't appreciate good food when they see it or taste it.
I'm a HUGE Indian buffet fan and have probably gone to 15-20 across North America before finding my favourite in Toronto. Yet looking at Urbanspoon, etc., there's nothing remarkable about this place.
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The shipping to Canada is all in - courier, broker fees, GST etc. It's worth it unless you have a US address to ship to then pick up.So I'm in Canada and I was ready to order the circulator for my birthday. However, shipping is more the 60$ so it killed my enthusiasm. I've tried to contact the company to see if it was possible to get a cheaper (slower) shipping option, but after sending 2 emails to 2 different adresses I've never received an answer. Now I'm a bit worried about customer service. Has anybody else ordered from Canada?
Unfortunately, I have to report that taxes and fees were not included in the shipping price. I had to pay an extra 41$ on taxes and fees. The actual shipping cost was around 51$ so that's disappointing. Hopefully the quality of the product will make up for it.
I ordered mine to Canada after reading this thread in its entirety. I've got a Cambro 18CW135 with lid coming too. Heard back from Anova - bit of a backlog but mine should be shipping next Friday. I'll update when I receive as to extra charges (i.e. duties, taxes, etc.).
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I agree with nickrey. Unless a steak is at least 1.5 inches thick, a 600 F 30-second post-cooking per-side sear in an iron pot will raise the core temperature at least 5.5 degrees. Even on a steak double the thickness of yours, a sear like described above will increase the core temperature by 7.5 degrees. Imagine what a blowtorch, which can heat up to 1500 F, could do!
One option on a steak this thin is to freeze it for 30 minutes and do a pre-cooking 60-second per-side sear in a neutral cooking oil. Clarified butter works well if you don't want to smoke your place up! Although it's not as crisp as a post-cooking sear, the appearance is somewhat similar...
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Here's a few tips:
1. To sanitize, create your own 200 ppm bleach solution. Remove organic residue from your countertop, spray on your bleach solution and allow it to air dry. If this leaves streaks, try wiping around after you spray on your bleach solution but still air dry. If this still leaves streaks, after you've sprayed on your bleach solution, wait two minutes and use a rubber squeegee like dcarch recommended. If you don't have time for it to air dry or can't wait two minutes, use a 500 ppm bleach solution. BY USING YOUR OWN HOMEMADE SOLUTION FROM CLOROX BLEACH AND FOLLOWING THE TIMES ABOVE, YOU ARE ENSURING SANITATION AND NOT INTRODUCING CHEMICALS ASIDE FROM WATER AND A BIT OF BLEACH.
2. If you continue to use bleach and the windex, ensure the bleach solution isn't too concentrated and that it has dried completely before spraying windex. Bleach and Windex produce harmful gases when combined.
3. When making your own bleach solution, ensure you note that modern bleach is now typically 8%; your instructions may follow the old concentration of 5.25%. Also, ensure you make a new bleach solution daily, especially for your type of use.
Anova Sous Vide Circulator (Part 2)
in Kitchen Consumer
Posted
Earlier, Jeff from Anova stated that water level is detected by their patented low water level electrode sensor. It is pulling charged particles from your water. A few suggestions:
1. You could try ionizing the water by placing a few drops of alkaline water concentrate in it.
2. Try a different container or pot (I don't think this will have an impact though).
3. Add a little bit of salt to the water, which will ionize into sodium and chlorine ions.
4. If all else above fails, try harder water just to see if the type of water really is having an impact on the sensor.
Did any of the above work?