vserna

Certainly not what I understood. What's a "formerly classical" cuisine? L'Ambroisie's? Senderens'? There is no classical cuisine left, hasn't been for a long time. Is there still a haute cuisine? - that is the question to me.

¡Hola, Ferran! Here's a question inspired by some thoughts that my colleague Rafael García Santos was expressing a couple of years ago: He then said that he thought your next frontier, your next challenge, would be 'to work with large pieces'; to accept an animal's shape and texture as created by nature (say, a whole sea bream, a whole lamb's shoulder, a whole game bird) and turn it, without deconstructing and reinterpreting it as something radically different, into an inmistakeably 'Adrià dish' - i.e., incorporating textural, temperature, aromatic and flavor contributions that would change these ingredients decisively, without first having to (shazzam!!!!) making them disappear. Many participants on eGullet tend to believe that such a development would run counter to the direction you have been on. I, personally, don't see it as too likely either! But what do you say? Victor de la Serna

I wouldn't make too much of Paris. France's genius, admittedly a bit dormant, rather lies elsewhere - Bras, Veyrat, Roellinger... Heck, we (meaning: we foodies without too heavy blinkers) all know, in Spain, which two chefs have been most influential and decisive in Spain's surprising jump into the world league of gastronomy: Ferran Adrià and Michel Bras. In that order? I'm not so sure!

Trust García Santos on baby lamb and other traditional dishes: his tastebuds are always well-placed. It's in the field of modernity that he sometimes goes slightly wacko (as when he extols "twice-peeled green peas"...). Mannix (how do you like that name! Spanish villages are full of places called Lennon, Copacabana, Monte-Carlo, Nebraska... That's the way we are!) is indeed a great address for churra breed baby lamb. It's some distance from the San Sebastián-Burgos-Madrid motorway, but quite manageable. Slightly closer to that road, and a bit further south, is the other great lamb conservatory, Figón de Zute el Mayor, a.k.a. (simply) 'Tinín' in Sepúlveda. Their styles are rather different, but it's pristine tender-as-a-kiss lamb in both places all right. One weak point of these places: non-existent diversity (it's lamb and a tomato-onion-and-lettuce salad, usually; sometimes some chorizo as an appetizer) and weak wine offerings, most often jug rosé with inadequate thick, small glasses. That always makes me mad. Particularly in such a wine-rich region. Last time at Mannix was a catastrophe; maybe Tinín has now added some decent Ribera del Duero.

There's even more to it, Judith. There is another wonderful art museum in Bilbao, just a stone's throw from the Guggenheim: the Museo de Bellas Artes, recently remodelled and one of the finest painting galleries in Spain: from Van Dyck and El Greco to Bacon and Chillida, with Gauguin and Cézanne in between. It seems that the fixation with Gehry's wonderful shiny structure sort of leaves the Bellas Artes in the dark, and that's pretty unfair IMHO. In addition, the Bellas Artes also has its own fine restaurant now! And the Bilbaínos are divided on which of the two museum restaurants is better: the Guggenheim's or the Museo de Bellas Artes' Arbola Gaña, with Aitor Basabe at the stoves. Two great museum restaurants, now that's a rare offering in any city!

Brilliant report, vmilor. Couldn't agree more with you. Etxeberri has a plus of creativity and execution over Fagollaga. (I'm just a bit surprised that Arguinzoniz would be using fresh instead of salt cod, BTW. Not the Basque thing at all!) A bit disquieting about Zuberoa - let's hope it's a temporary lapse. They shouldn't betray what they do best. BTW, one tiny suggestion: next time, how about extending your wings a bit beyond the borders of the Basque Country! Not far away, in Rioja and Navarre, there's some seriously good food these days...

A classic may of cooking milky agarics on the Spanish high plateau is níscalos con patatas. One of many recipes goes like this: 500 grams soft potatoes (apt for stewing), 500 grams níscalos, one 'pimiento choricero' (dried soft red pepper), half a small onion, a teaspoon of minced 'guindilla' (dried hot red chile), olive oil and salt. Soak and scald the 'choriceros' in order to extract their re-hydrated pulp. Mince onion finely. Clean níscalos carefully (not under a jet of water!), cut into thin but large slices. Dice the potatoes, not too finely. Heat some olive oil in a casserole, add onion and let it just become slightly golden. Add the mushrooms, which will immediately shed their water. Cook for a few minutes, then add potatoes and cook a couple more minuted. Add 'guindilla' and cover with water, adding the pulp from the 'choriceros and salt. Cook over very slow heat until the potatoes are tender. Correct salt. Serve in soup bowls and eat with a spoon.

Not to worry, Butterfly. Many members of the Lactarius (meaning: milky) family, particularly but not only the deliciosus, have this property that the slightest erosion of their (in tyhis case) bright but brittle orange surface (not even a cut - a simple bruise) immediately turns a threatening dark green. It's just a chemical reaction with not the slightest danger to the consumer or the slightest change in taste or properties. And $25 was a great price! (El Corte Inglés is always outrageously expensive anyhow.) That said, in the wet autumn of 2002 we were paying 4 euros a kilo...

Boy oh boy oh boy, you really don't get it, do you, Miguel? This is not about quantum mathematics or nuclear physics, about whether it's exactly 50% or perhaps 60% or maybe even 61%. No, I confess I didn't look into these statistics with a pocket calculator in hand before I casually remarked - in a context that had nothing to do with the relative dependence on fish in the Portuguese and the Spanish diets - that Spain ate a lot of fish. That was the only relevant point at the time. We were talking about comparing cheap everyday food in Spain and Italy, remember? And on that subject I wrote that, all things considered, it was pretty good in both places, each with its strong points, with better vegetables in Italy and better fish in Spain. And when Alberto expressed surprise about this fish thing, I came back, right off the top of my head, with this statement about Spain being No. 2 in fish consumption in Europe behind Portugal, with the proviso that salt cod played a large role in Portuguese consumption, as it was half of it. I knew this was the gist of it, because I've read a lot about fish consumption patterns, but I didn't go back to the official figures to measure things to the last gram. I was trying to make a general, but still valid point. OK up to this point? Let's see the rest. In didactic, civilized, European fashion. ...... Good morning, class. This is European Seafood Consumption 101. Portugal again today. Big subject. They're number one. Let's take it one step at a time, class. Are you following, class? Please be attentive now, because there may be a test at the end... As you'll remember from yesterday, Miguel came into this thread like a bull in a china shop, proclaiming Portuguese gastronomic supremacy (so what else is new?), and in addition he went ballistic and said that - hah hah hah I gotcha - he'd like to see where Victor de la Serna had got those ridiculous figures, because there was no way the Portuguese ate that much codfish. OK, class? Then the Dutch study that explained it was brought up. And then, ever since, Miguel has been rehashing the data in that study in unfathomable ways, to the point that I wonder if anyone else following this discussion has the slightest inkling of what we're talking about anymore. Well, we should get to the real story, class. In simple, summarized, easy to understand terms. Please, class, turn again to the infamous table 9.2 of the Vrije Universiteit study. What does it tell us? It breaks down total fish and shellfish consumption in Portugal for the year 2000 (yes, the Universiteit complains, Portuguese stats ain't nothin' to write home about, but they've still managed to get this stuff). Sardines this much, horse mackerel that much... And, leading the pack, codfish, with a bit more than 8 kilos per capita. But then table 9.2 (plop! goes the asterisk) brings in the FAO criteria (that's the Food and Agriculture Organization, class – the UN food agency – headquartered in Rome, where else!) and transforms these modest 8 kilos into... 30 kilos! Hey, what's going on here? Is this the multiplication of the loaves and the fishes saint Mark wrote about in his gospel? What's this sleight-of-hand? Calm down, class, please. No whispering in the back, please. We'll explain. See, the Portuguese eat a lot of salt cod. This "unappealing rigid piece of rag which, by adding just a little olive oil and turning and turning with their hand, the Bilbao women manage to make into a work of culinary art..." (So wrote the Spanish food writer Punto y Coma to describe the making of one of the greatest cod dishes, bacalao al pil pil). Salt cod is not usable as it comes. It must be re-moisturized in the time-honored de-salting process, and the wonderful final result is that you wind up with a lot more fish to eat. That's where the FAO's experts come in: in practical, real fresh fish consumption terms, they say that 8 kilos of salt cod is the equivalent of 30 kilos of fresh cod. Hey, they're the FAO. They should know. OK, class, let's go back to the figures. Add up the quantities. If you stick to the original 8 kilos of cod, each Portuguese citizen, in 2000, ate... about 28 kilos of fish and shellfish, right? Obviously, 8 kilos is indeed a lot less than 50% of that figure! This Victor de la Serna character had it all wrong. Hah hah hah, sneer sneer sneer! Hey, what's all that mumbling in the third row! Yeah, you, Fernando Point, the usual troublemaker, the wise guy. Take that stick of bubble gum out of your mouth and speak clearly. What's that piece of paper you are holding? The fish statistics by the Spanish Agriculture and Fisheries Ministry? Showing that total seafood consumption in Spain has been above 30 kilos per person every year since 2000, and rising? That salt cod is only ninth among the most eaten species in Spain? That the list is headed by whiting, squid, sole, sardine and anchovy? That, in 2003, Spanish seafood consumption was about 38 kilos per person? Yeah, yeah. I'm hearing you. So what, Fernando? Oh. You mean that 38 kilos is more than 28 kilos. Yeah, you've got a point there. And you say that unless we count those 8 kilos of salt cod as 30 kilos of fresh cod, the Portuguese total doesn't climb back up above 50 total kilos, and Portugal doesn't recover its rightful first place in Europe? That would be real unpleasant – those damn' Castilians might even brag they're numero uno, and they're not. Then, of course, you point out that 30 kilos of cod is more than half the total Portuguese seafood consumption. So this despicable Victor de la Serna character didn't overstate the relative importance of cod consumption in Portugal. It turns out he even understated it a little. Oh oh... Well... What can I say... Rrrrriiiiingggggggggg! Pphew... There's the bell, class. Nothing more for today. Hey, tomorrow it's fresh water fish consumption in Hungary! I want everyone to get those data right from the start, no fooling around with rehydrated salt perch or some other gobbledygook jive dumb stuff! And have a nice recipe for Lake Balaton fogás ready! And hold the butter and the bacon! These Hungarians have got to learn to use healthier unsaturated fats like olive oil now that they're in the EU! Tastes better too! So - let's do some decent homework, for a change! And no running, shoving or shouting in the hallways, please! Pleeeeaaase!

Free speech is one thing, Miguel. Free blah blah is another. Please, look up Table 9.2 of this very serious Dutch study. (Dutch, not Spanish. Spain left the Netherlands centuries ago.) Anyone else on the board can verify if this is correct, BTW. Thanks! In it, one can clearly see yearly consumption of fish per capita in 2000 by the Portuguese, summarized, species by species. Topping vthe list: 8.3 kilos of dried cod, but with a note pointing out that due to the "value of consumption of cod using the equivalent live weight for 1999, following the methodology used by FAO", that figure must be changed, into the equivalent of 30.1 kilos of live codfish. All other categories of (fresh) fish and shellfish total 20.06 kilos per capita per year. So, total consumption, about 50 kilos. A lot. So, yes, I was wrong - codfish isn't half of the Portuguese fish consumption. It's two thirds of it. Sorry to have erred on the safe side. Yet, you accuse me of having overstated the percentage of cod fish. (Is it offensive to eat so much cod? I can't really fathom why you took offense in such a heartfelt way.) BTW, Spain's fresh fish consumption in 2003 was 38 kilos per person, according to EU figures. What I had said in my original post is that Spain's seafood consumption was second in Europe behind Portugal, with the proviso that half of the Portuguese consumption was codfish. You took exception to those data. I still can't see why. Except for somewhat underestimating the role of dried cod in your country, they were correct.

I believe so much in freedom of expression, Miguel, that I haven't suggested for one second that you cease expressing yourself here - even if it's to give out sets of incomprehensibly explained figures and to keep making unsubstantiated assertions on the relative state of gastronomy in two European countries. It takes a lot of love for freedom of speech, Miguel, I can assure you. I just wish you were able to back up your constant claims with something somewhat - authoritative? Is that the word? It would be useful. For instance: find a single, professionally recognized food writer who shares your views, and quote him or her. But do file away. Long live free speech!

The 'good' news is that three weeks ago the saffron-capped milky agarics (that's the English name of Lactarius deliciosus, Pedro), in El Corte Inglés, cost... exactly 60 euros/kilo! At least, they haven't gone up in price! Late fungal varieties in the drier parts of Spain, such as the níscalo, have been decimated this year due to the overwhelming September-October drought. That said, the chanterelles from the wet North have been much cheaper and excellent!

Note from the host: I splitted some posts from the thread Quality of regular restaurants compared to Italy to create this thread. The detail achieved in the debate regarding the specific figures of cod fish consumption in Portugal deserves its own thread. Miguel, Miguel, Miguel... I have always the impression you suffer from this nagging, resentful Spanish complex endured by old-time Portuguese nationalists: "De Espanha, nem bom vento, nem bom casamento"... Should I translate? Old-time Spanish nationalists have the same boogaboo vis-à-vis France, by the way. I'm happy to report that I don't. I'm getting a bit fed up with your supposed expertise. How long have you been writing about food and wine? Which Spanish restaurants do you really know? Where are you coming from, anyhow? I know Portugal. I visit Portugal constantly. I go to big-town restaurants and to small-town inns in Nelas or in Régua or in Valença do Minho or in Estremoz. Everyday food is better in Spain, and it has been better for a long time. Quite a bit better. But I have strenuously tried to avoid Spanish-Portuguese comparisons on this board because it isn't fair given the size, wealth and culinary diversity of the two countries. However, if you insist, I'll go into that in Technicolor. With the credibility, or lack thereof, inherent to the fact I've been a food and wine writer for major European and American publications for the past quarter century. Now on the codfish information. My father never was responsible for fisheries anywhere, but I'm a professional reporter and I like to deal in fact, not in fiction. So please do consult this Report on the seafood consumption data found in the European countries of the OT-SAFE project from the Vrije Universiteit in Amsterdam. Besides pointing out that "statistical data concerning seafood consumption is not available for Portugal", they do indicate this: "The Portuguese seafood consumption per capita (Kg/year) depends substantially on how cod is included in the statistical data. As an example, between 1992-1994 the Portuguese seafood consumption per capita (Kg/year) was 37.4 if cod was included as dried fish, however if it was converted to fresh codfish (which is the normal procedure in FAO) then the Portuguese seafood consumption per capita would be 61.6 Kg/year." Quod (not cod) erat demonstrandum.

Ah, Casa Teo, what great memories, Bux! Still doing OK, from what I've heard, and I'm glad about that. To me, this little tavern, which I first visited 26 years ago, epitomizes why even in those old, bleak times when Spain was a poor isolated country with no culinary sophistication and Ferran Adrià was a high school kid in Barcelona with no inkling he'd ever be cooking for a living, there was here a reservoir, a trove of culinary talent, tradition and excellence that was just waiting for this society to regain a bit of affluence and to start re-discovering the civilized pleasures of the table and even re-launching the evolution and growth of Spanish cuisine. Now we've done all that, but without all the little, unpretentious Casa Teos that held the fort of good cuisine while deprivation and isolation still gripped Spain, we wouldn't be where we are today. Casa d'a Troya in Madrid, Casa Leopoldo in Barcelona, Bodegón Alejandro in San Sebastián (where another teenager, Martín Berasategui, was learning the ropes!), El Mosquito in Vigo - I raise my glass to them with much admiration and gratitude!

Well, you're giving the answer yourself. Yes, it's right smack in the middle of the old road from Galicia to Madrid, on which the haevy carts pulled by oxen and led by the 'arrieros' from Astorga in nearby Maragatería once brought fish to Madrid. A little of it always stayed in Zamora, León and places in between...

OK - it's daring... in Zamora! The modern world just got thereabout 20 minutes ago, so this is indeed high jinks for zamoranos!

Goodness, Bux, you're right. Forgive me! I copied the 'English' translation of the dish and of course it was horrible and meaningless. Actually and simply it's veal sweetbreads with striped shrimp - a somewhat daring combination.

Any of the wines I've mentioned, from the great 2001 vintage, will be spectacular. I don't think I've ever tasted horsemeat cecina. The types I know are made with either beef or venison. It's not usually smoked, but air-dried in the same fashion as 'ibérico' ham. I didn't know this was much of a specialty in Zamora; as you mention, I also know the cecina from the León mountains to the north of Zamora well - higher altitude, lower temperatures make for better meat-drying conditions. Then again, since cattle is such an important activity in Sanabria and Aliste, it would not be illogical for some beef cecina to be made in the area.

I'm afraid it's exactly the opposite, Judith. My revered friend Peter Sisseck, of Pingus fame, became Clos d'Agon's consulting winemaker in 2000, after a change of ownership, and has overseen the viticulture (with some important replanting and vineyard reform) and the winemaking at this small estate in the Pyrenees ever since. His 2003 white hit the market last September. Total production: just 480 cases. It's a Rhône-style blend (46% viognier, 36% roussane, 18% marsanne) that was fermented in new and used French oak barrels and aged on its lees, in the same barrels, for six months.

Zamora. So far away, so isolated, so beautiful in its medieval splendor. (Cold too, this time of year...) Local stuff: Terrific beef and veal from the Sanabria Lake and Aliste region near the Portuguese border. Outstanding Zamorano cheese (like Manchego, this is well-aged 100% sheep's milk, preferably unpasteurized). Roast kid and roast suckling pig. Chick (garbanzo) peas from Fuentesaúco - the most delicate in Spain. Farinato sausage, frogs' legs, codfish 'ajo arriero'. The great wines of Toro (Numanthia, Viña San Román, Pago La Jara, Pintia, Quinta Quietud, Bienvenida). An outstanding modern restaurant 'with roots' in Zamora proper: El Rincón de Antonio, which has just been elevated to one-star category (miracle! miracle!) by Michelin. Some of the stuff they serve: Zamora-style beef gizzards with Huelva striped shrimp; lime-marinated goose barnacles; a casserole of veal cheeks, wild mushrooms and Toro wine; braised veal's sweetbreads; 'three-game' escabeche (roebuck filet, duck magret and pheasant breast); an orange cream with apple ice-cream; a warm pinenut-stuffed chocolate bonbon... (More here: El Rincón de Antonio).

"Imitation" is not a nice word... "Likeness" would be more like it. Remember that some of us have always mantained that the Rhône valley doesn't really stop at Avignon, but is prolonged by the hillside vineyards of the Languedoc, the Roussillon and Eastern Spain. We are much more southerly here, but we are also much higher up in altitude (I know a certain grenache vineyard 3,500 feet above sea level in my neck o' the woods), so one thing compensates the other... In that sense, you already know one of those spicy, blended, Rhône-styled whites in Spain: it's one of the very favorites you mention. Viñas del Vero's Clarión is an excellent example of that syle, showing that, even if we can do better in variety and quantity terms, there are already a few good ones. Others (not easy to find, I warn you!) in that same league: Venta d'Aubert (Vino de la Tierra del Bajo Aragón), Remélluri Blanco (DOC Rioja), Clos d'Agon (DO Catalunya), Mas d'en Compte and Mas Igneus FA 104 (DO Priorat). Your choice of Chivite 125 is also a sound one - Spain's best oak-fermented chardonnay. Close to Grand Cru quality. But pricey. The wine from 200 year-old pre-phylloxeric wines I once mentioned was my friend Gerardo Méndez's Do Ferreiro Cepas Vellas, an albariño from the Rías Baixas DO. Late-harvest, late-release wines are often the best and most complex these days in that region, led by Pazo de Señorans Selección de Añada, Albariño de Fefiñanes III Año, Fillaboa Selección Monte Alto. Also Lusco do Miño, which should be cellared for 1-2 years after release (they release it early) and then gains considerable weight. Best Rueda verdejos currently on the market (2003 vintage) are Naia, Viña Clavidor, Señorío de Garci Grande, Prius de Moraña and Palacio de Bornos.

GaultMillau, now on its umpteenth comeback trail and with very little credibility left, does include a few Spanish restaurants located a few miles from the French-Spanish border, basically all the obvious choices. They've done so for years. These contents add strictly nothing to locally produced guides or even to Michelin. Back in its long-gone heyday as the trendsetting promoter of 'nouvelle cuisine', when it was still run by Christian Millau and Henri Gault, the GaultMillau company did produce one small national guide to Spain. It was largely financed by Spanish tourism authorities and, frankly, didn't amount to much either. This was the only Gault-Millau guide to Spain ever. It was published... in 1976! Almost three decades ago.

It's a matter of looking at the map, Judith. Spain is where it is. The viticultural areas in this country enjoy, overall, the most hours of sunshine and the highest daytime temperature averages in the world - Australia included. This makes a large majority of those areas ill-equipped to produce top-notch white wines, which need a temperate or even cool environment to preserve delicacy and subtlety. Rheingau, Loire, Friuli or Côte-de-Beaune this ain't. And that is not going to change. Add global warming, and it may even get more pronounced. We do have some very interesting areas - the Galician northwest, the high plateau of Rueda, some cool high-altitude sites in Navarre and Catalonia. And we can probably do better in some other, warmer areas that are conducive to fat, garrigue-infused, spicy powerful whites in the mold of the Rhône valley. But these will never be market-dominating styles, but rather niche wines for a specific set of dishes - something like well-aged Hermitage Blanc or Châteauneuf-du-Pape Blanc. So if you love flinty, subtle riesling wines as I do, drink some serious dry Mosel, which many of the better Spanish restaurants carry nowadays. Don't try Spanish riesling, please. Then again, you wouldn't drink local riesling in Tuscany, would you? OTOH, I'll be glad to give you a few names of truly top level Spanish whites if you are interested in specific areas or food pairings. I don't want this post to be like a catalog... Finally, on Somontano reds. There is, in the wine tasting vernacular, a difference between "full bodied" and "robust". Right-bank Bordeaux is "full bodied", not "robust". Corbières, Basilicata, Sicily or Collioure reds are certrainly "robust". I would indeed compare the style of Somontano, including Blecua, with Pomerol or Saint-Emilion, thus "full bodied". Secastilla, which you mention, is a peculiar Somontano, away from the current mainstream wines in the region - it's a (single-vineyard) grenache varietal, whereas the rest of the region's reds are basically cabernet sauvignon/merlot blends. But in the world of Spanish grenache it still stands out as a high-altitude, fresher wine.

I would never put Bierzo or Somontano in the "robust" category myself - more in the "Atlantic-influenced" category. "Robust" would indeed apply to Toro - and to Jumilla, Yecla, Montsant, Terra Alta, Campo de Borja, Calatayud. Fortunately, I can assure you that there is no longer a single sommelier in a serious foodie restaurant in Spain today that would urge the diner to drink "traditional reds" only. There are fewer interesting whites than reds in Spain, yes - but still enough of them to accompany fish and fowl well. PS I've been prodded in a couple of cases to move wine-related discussions to the wine board, which is why I mentioned this here. But I must also confess that I'm not really up-to-date on that board's discussions.

Too bad GaultMillau no longer is anything like GaultMillau...