Craig Camp

I like the interviews on Grape Radio. Their Santa Rita Hills round table (5 parts) was fantastic and the Jadot/Alan Meadows show was incredible two hours.

Dover Canyon

Yes!!

Please, please no Sicilian cab. Not now, not ever. You would want a natural flow from the starting wine to the finish, so serving a NZ sauvignon at the end would be jarring. Start with a Prosecco with and then go to a flight of several Tuscan reds to go with both the Salami and Rabbit. Nothing spoils a good red like blue cheese, so go to something sweet - a Vin Santo if you want to keep the Tuscan theme. I would enjoy the sorbetti on their own merits sans wine.

You'd be hard pressed to find a tomato sauce in Piemonte.

No, but partly an act of traders, seeing as the ragu includes tomatoes, and tomatoes were brought to Italy directly or indirectly from the Americas. ← How many centuries is the rule before a product becomes local?

Well, generally, you don't really have a choice about drinking locally or non-locally. For the most part, in Europe, local wines are the only ones on the list. Paris and Rome are exceptions. But I've been to a good 30 restaurants in the Cote d'Or, and I can't recall a single one other than Lameloise that had wines from outside the region. Even places like Naples, cities built on trade, offer only local wines (for the most part). ← There are wine regions outside of Europe.

The main reason I follow the drink local rule is not because the local wines and foods automatically go better together than similar wines from outside the region, but because I want to taste wines that may not be readily available outside the region. When I eat in Alba I am unlikely to order a Vietti or Giacosa simply because I can easily buy those wines at home. I'm looking for small hard to get producers or to find new discoveries by trying producers I'm not familiar with. In the later regard I usually rely on the proprietor and/or sommelier. I also drink local just because it's fun.

them's fightn' words. It's les Crots hands down.

Don't most people who have expensive wines keep them for special occasions? ← Yes, for example last night I had leftovers from New Years Eve. New Year's Eve is a special occasion, so as these leftovers were from a special occasion, dinner last night became another special occasion. Therefore I absolutely had to open a nice bottle of wine. I seem to be able to find special occasions almost every day. However, on days I don't, I like to open a really special bottle as just opening such a bottle is a special occasion. By the way, great bottles do not have to be expensive and often expensive bottles are not great.

Been there. Done that.

How about one company? If you made a wine list of only Louis Latour's wines, you'd have a significant wine list with quite a few matching opportunities and challenges. Louis Latour offers: Aloxe-Corton 1er Cru « Les Chaillots » Aloxe-Corton Vin du Bicentenaire Aloxe-Corton « Domaine Latour » Auxey-Duresses Blanc Bâtard-Montrachet Grand Cru Beaujolais-Lancié Beaujolais-Villages Beaujolais-Villages «Chameroy» Beaune 1er Cru "Aux Cras" Beaune 1er Cru "Cent Vignes" Beaune 1er Cru "Grèves" rouge Beaune 1er Cru 'Les Aigrots' Beaune 1er Cru Blanc Beaune 1er Cru Perrières Beaune 1er Cru « Domaine Latour » Beaune 1er Cru «Grèves» blanc Beaune 1er Cru «Vignes Franches» Beaune Blanc Beaune Rouge Bienvenues-Bâtard-Montrachet Grand Cru Bonnes Mares Grand Cru Bourgogne Aligoté Bourgogne Blanc « Anniversaire » Bourgogne Blanc « Cuvée Latour » Bourgogne Passetoutgrain Bourgogne Rouge « Anniversaire » Bourgogne Rouge « Cuvée Latour » Bouzeron Brouilly « Les Saburins » Chablis Chablis 1er Cru Chablis 1er Cru 'Beauroy' Chablis 1er Cru « Fourchaume » Chablis 1er Cru « Montmains » Chablis Grand Cru 'Bougros' Chablis Grand Cru « Blanchots » Chablis Grand Cru « Vaudésir » Chablis «La Chanfleure» Chambertin 'Clos de Bèze' Grand Cru Chambertin Grand Cru « Cuvée Héritiers Latour » Chambolle Musigny 1er Cru "Les Charmes" Chambolle-Musigny Chambolle-Musigny 1er Cru Chardonnay d'Ardèche Chardonnay « Bourgogne » Charmes-Chambertin Grand Cru Chassagne Montrachet 1er Cru "Morgeot" rouge Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru 'Les Caillerets' Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru blanc Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru « Les Chenevottes » Chassagne-Montrachet 1er Cru « Morgeot » blanc Chassagne-Montrachet blanc Chassagne-Montrachet Rouge Château Corton Grancey Grand Cru Chénas Chevalier-Montrachet Grand cru « Les Demoiselles » Clos de la Roche Grand Cru Clos Vougeot Grand Cru Corton Grand Cru « Clos de la Vigne au Saint » Corton Grand Cru « Domaine Latour » Corton-Charlemagne Grand Cru Côte de Beaune-Villages Côte-de-Nuits Villages Criots-Bâtard-Montrachet Grand Cru Domaine de Valmoissine Duet Echézeaux Grand Cru Fixin Fleurie « Les Garans » Gevrey-Chambertin Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru « Cazetiers » Gevrey-Chambertin 1er Cru "Les Corbeaux" Givry Blanc Givry Rouge Grand Ardèche Grands Echézeaux Grand Cru Juliénas Latricières-Chambertin « Grand Cru » Le Bourgogne de Louis Latour Blanc Le Bourgogne de Louis Latour rouge Mâcon-Lugny Mâcon-Lugny « Les Genièvres » Mâcon-Villages Mâcon-Villages « Chameroy » Maranges Maranges 1er Cru "La Fussière" Marsannay Marsannay Blanc Mazis-Chambertin Grand Cru Mercurey Blanc Mercurey Rouge Meursault 1er Cru « Goutte d’Or » Meursault 1er Cru Blanc Meursault 1er Cru Château de Blagny Meursault 1er Cru « Charmes » Meursault 1er Cru « Genevrières » Meursault 1er Cru « Perrières » Meursault 1er Cru « Poruzots » Meursault Blanc Meursault Rouge Montagny Montagny 1er Cru « La Grande Roche » Monthélie Monthélie "Clos des Toisières" blanc Monthelie 'Clos des Toisières' rouge Montrachet Grand Cru Morey-Saint-Denis Morey-Saint-Denis 1er Cru Morgon « Les Charmes » Morgon « Les Corcelettes » Moulin-à-Vent « Les Michelons » Nuits-Saint-Georges Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Cru Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Cru "Les Crots" Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Cru « Clos des Argillières » Pernand-Vergelesses 1er Cru « Ile des Vergelesses » Pernand-Vergelesses Blanc Pernand-Vergelesses Rouge Pinot Noir Pommard Pommard 1er Cru« Les Epenots » Pommard 1er Cru Pommard 1er Cru 'Les Rugiens' Pouilly-Fuissé Pouilly-Vinzelles 'En Paradis' Puligny-Montrachet Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru 'Hameau de Blagny' Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « Les Truffières » Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « Sous le Puits » Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « La Garenne » Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « Les Champgains » Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « Les Folatières » Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru « Les Referts » Regnié « La Roche Thulon » Romanée-Saint-Vivant Grand Cru ' Les Quatre Journaux ' Rully Blanc Rully Rouge Saint-Aubin Saint-Romain Saint-Véran Saint-Véran « Les Deux Moulins » Santenay 1er Cru "La Comme" Santenay Blanc Santenay Rouge Santenay Rouge 1er Cru Savigny-lès-Beaune 1er Cru Savigny-lès-Beaune Blanc Savigny-lès-Beaune Rouge Volnay Volnay 1er Cru 'Clos des Chênes' Volnay 1er Cru 'En Chevret' Volnay 1er Cru 'Les Mitans' Volnay 1er Cru Rouge Volnay 1er Cru « Santenots » Vosne-Romanée Vosne-Romanée 1er Cru Vosne-Romanée 1er Cru « Beaumonts » Vosne-Romanée 1er Cru « Les Suchots » ← Count me in! When and where?

When considering the total wine consumption in Italy, I would not use the size of the population as a reliable indicator. They pop a few more corks than the average American. Only 8,000,000 bottles of Barolo are produced a year. That leaves 1,600,000 bottles of Barolo for 60,000,000 Italians. Subtract out the bottles consumed in Piemonte and Lombardia and you'll see there are few bottles left for the rest of Italy. ← As Hathor pointed out, Italians tend to support the wines of their region. Is there something you find objectionable about that? And if there is, do you also object to their tending to eat local-style food the great majority of the time? Because when you're talking about matching wine with food, isn't there something to the idea that the wines grown in a region match the traditional food of the region, both redolent of terroir in some sense? I found that Chianti and Montepulciano wines went very well with Tuscan cuisine. ← I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Obviously I love the regional foods and wines of Italy. What does this have to do with this argument? Please clarify. ← It seemed to me that you were criticizing both the lack of variety in wines on sale in shops in Europe and the fact that certain European wines are largely exported, rather than drunk in other regions of Italy, for example. And my counterargument is that if you want to match a regional cuisine with a wine, the intuitive thing to do is to select a local wine, not one from outside the region or country. Does that clarify the context of this discussion I'm having with you? ← I am certainly not criticizing them. Just relating the facts. Frankly, they seem quite satisfied with the situation. The point I was trying to make is that most of the top wines of the world are consumed outside their country of production and therefore out of the local cultural and culinary context of the people that made them. As far as drinking regional when I'm in Barolo I drink Barolo, when I'm in Burgundy I drink Burgundy. However, here in Oregon where I make wine, I not only drink local wines, but wines from around the world. Portland has a fantastic selection of small producer wines from everywhere in the world. Bordeaux and Alba don't. This makes the wine choices easily available to me far more extensive and diverse than someone in Alba.

When considering the total wine consumption in Italy, I would not use the size of the population as a reliable indicator. They pop a few more corks than the average American. Only 8,000,000 bottles of Barolo are produced a year. That leaves 1,600,000 bottles of Barolo for 60,000,000 Italians. Subtract out the bottles consumed in Piemonte and Lombardia and you'll see there are few bottles left for the rest of Italy. ← As Hathor pointed out, Italians tend to support the wines of their region. Is there something you find objectionable about that? And if there is, do you also object to their tending to eat local-style food the great majority of the time? Because when you're talking about matching wine with food, isn't there something to the idea that the wines grown in a region match the traditional food of the region, both redolent of terroir in some sense? I found that Chianti and Montepulciano wines went very well with Tuscan cuisine. ← I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Obviously I love the regional foods and wines of Italy. What does this have to do with this argument? Please clarify.

When considering the total wine consumption in Italy, I would not use the size of the population as a reliable indicator. They pop a few more corks than the average American. Only 8,000,000 bottles of Barolo are produced a year. That leaves 1,600,000 bottles of Barolo for 60,000,000 Italians. Subtract out the bottles consumed in Piemonte and Lombardia and you'll see there are few bottles left for the rest of Italy.

You may be on to something here

Which means that almost 20% of it is consumed in Italy, and considering what the population of the rest of the world is vs. the population of Italy, that is a pretty substantial percentage. But getting back to the main topic: I've really enjoyed pairings on a few occasions but don't do them much. One occasion was a trip to the New York branch of Chanto, an upscale Japanese chain, where Sethro was the Pastry Chef at the time. I had sake pairings that were listed in their menu. Another occasion was a trip to Al Di La in Brooklyn, where my friend and I had the bartender/sommelier select half glasses to pair with our appetizer, primo, and secondo. I was getting tipsy and didn't order wine with dessert, but he gave us more pours, anyway, and I had a hangover the next day, but it was worth it. But when I drink wine, I usually either have a glass or two with a meal (not necessarily paired to courses as such) or share a bottle. I always consult with the sommelier, or failing that, the waiter, regarding what will go well with what I've ordered. But I digress. My main point would be that on the one hand, pairings can be very pleasurable, but on the other, a bottle can itself pair brilliantly with all the savory courses in a meal (one memorable such occasion was when I had a meal with a friend at Union Pacific, not the most conventional food). Craig, you seem militant about this, in a way that I don't understand. Then again, you're a wine-producer and I'm only an occasional wine-drinker. ← Craig can certainly speak for himself, but my sense of his "militancy" comes from the impression given in this topic that pairing different courses with specific wines over a dinner is inherently nonsensical, something that both he and I feel is ridiculous. If we have reached the point when every corner diner or mom and pop restaurant start getting into the act or it becomes de rigeur that everyone does it all the time then I would agree that we have become "too matchy." In the meantime, I applaud those who are making a concerted and honest effort to make wine service and dining as pleasurable as they can. For me a dinner with well-matched interesting wines increases my pleasure with that meal considerably. Sometimes that occurs with a couple of well chosen bottles. In other instances it occurs with a paired flight of wine. What is the big deal? ← John - I'll happily let you talk for me. That's it exactly.

I'm arguing that if anybody says avant-garde cuisine can only be enjoyed with micro pairings, we can just point to the counter-example of El Bulli and laugh that person out of the room. ← No one is saying that (here anyway), so I guess no one has to leave the room in humiliation. It would seem to me that by going to a restaurant like El Bulli, you are going for an extreme culinary experience that has little to do with dining in general. If you're going for a peak experience why not go all the way and include the wine in that experience? The only reason I can think of is that you don't drink or just aren't that interested in the wines. If you're just looking for background music from your wines no problem, but if you're looking for something special, which I would be while dining at El Bulli, I would want to reach for something more meaningful.

I reject your rejection. The difference is that the average American customer has a much, much broader selection available to them than the average European. My experience is that European sommeliers have a higher degree of knowledge about the wines from their own country/region than American sommeliers would about that same area, but the Americans have broader knowledge about wines available from throughout the world. If you go to a restaurant in Barolo, there is little thought as to which wine to have with which course as these matches have be well worked out. However if you go to a restaurant in Los Angeles with wines from everywhere and food influences from everywhere you have a different problem. Also, are you arguing that just because El Bulli does it one way that it's the right way and Grant has no right to try to make his own statement at Alinea? It seems to me that Adria does what he wants because he sees it as best for his food, while Grant does the same thing. These are statement restaurants and the owner can make whatever statement they want.

I think a lot of this has to do with the culinary diversity found at the typical American table. When eating a tasting menu here in the US, there often will be a wide diversity of culinary influenes which tend to make the one-wine-fits-all approach unsatisfying. If the pumpkin gnocchi is in a cardmom-black pepper cream sauce, you won't be drinking the same wine as you did with a classically minimalist venetian shrimp dish. Or, if you do, it really won't be a pleasant match one way or the other. OTOH, in Lyon, it's a pretty good bet that you can order Beaujolais with an everyday dinner dish, or order Cote Rotie or St Joseph with a special-occasion dish, and it will work. So I think there's a pretty good reason why Europeans are "less matchy" -- the traditional regional food goes well with the traditional regional wine, for the most part. They don't need to spend the mental energy on matching, because the whole package just works out-of-the-box, no assembly required. --------------------------- As for the issue of pacing: sure, enjoying one bottle over a period of several hours has its advantages. That's just one of the reasons I place little faith in the results of drive-by tastings. BUT you're not really going to enjoy a bottle at a relaxed pace if there are 6 or more diners at the table...the bottle won't outlast a single course anyway. In this situation, one-wine-per-course is just the natural thing to do. So I make sure to either bring bottles that will be ready to go, or decant the wine earlier. I think per-course wine pairings are a reasonable way to handle wine in a "tasting menu for 2" setting where the diversity of the plates precludes a good match with only one or two wines (although I might note that in many of these situations a bottle of Champagne would do nicely, but Americans don't think of Champagne as dinner wine). When I do a "tasting menu" dinner, there are usually 6 or more guests -- so this isn't really an issue for me. ← I agree with you. Its not only the diversity of the American table, but the diversity of the American wine market. Literally the best of everything from everywhere is available here. This is rarely the case in Europe.

What happens when you get a wine and food person? ← They become completely paralyzed, and starve because they can never eat. ← Funny, I've never had that trouble.

I agree with you totally that most of the time a casual approach to matching food and wine is the best. However, when you reach the level of certain wine and food experiences, like Alinea, it's another situation. Don't get crazy about getting it right, but also not everything is good with anything and following some broad, general guidelines will enhance your experience.

I dare you to find a wine shop in Europe, outside of England, that offers the range of wines offered by top wine shops the USA. When it comes to "food-and-wine knowledgeable subsets" of European consumers, I think you can find some in Northern Europe, but in producing countries like France, Italy and Spain you don't. It's not that they not interested, but you just can't buy the wines. I have a far better and more diverse range of wines available to me in Portland Oregon than I did in Milano. You live in NYC, the easiest place in the world to buy great wine, but your experience does not reflect the rest fo the world.

I think you've it right on the head and certainly you clearly understood everyone's comments on your Christmas dinner thread. We were just talking, not demanding that you drink what we recommended. It should be fun and enjoyable most of all, but going to restaurants like Alinea means that we are seeking a higher level of appreciation of both food and wine.

I guess I'm just surprised by this topic. Steven has dedicated much of his life to finding the best foods and the best ingredients to make those foods. He goes out of his way to analyze in minute detail the food at restaurants and from food vendors, but then finds the same intensity to match wine with food somehow too demanding. I think that just shows his personal interest is in food far more than wine. Not that there is anything wrong with that. For me, as someone who is dedicating my life to finding a way to make great pinot noir, I don't understand the difference. How is the quest of a chef different from that of a winemaker? Why should the results of a chefs efforts demand more respect than a winemaker?