Suvir Saran

I think again, I find myself in agreement with you. And now I need to demystify RKS.

Oh. I thought Chaat was the Hindi word for snack food and appetizer like things. Its specific to a region? Jason, therein lies your answer. Yes Chaat is a hindi word. Hindi is spoken mostly in Northern India. I am sure many in the Southern part of India know it.. it has been a sore spot in Indian politics (Hindi being the national language of India that is). Chaat is usually not easily found in Southern India. I am sure just as Southern foods have found a hungry audience in the North, maybe many Southerners are also fond of chaats... But no, Chaat is not Southern Indian.

Having never tried Dalda products, I was wondering what you found deficient about them. Is it (1) their lack of overall quality, (2) opposition in principle to the use of ghee substitutes, (3) swadeshi opposition to using "Indian" products made by foreign-owned Unilever, or (4) something else? Skchai, we learn from each other. Thanks for your posts. Dalda is a key player in the Indian pantry. I am grateful to you for having started this thread. Firstly, Dalda is bad for the body. That is something I am always acutely attentive about in my cooking. Indian food is deeply imbedded in the ayurvedic traditions and this makes most Indian cookery largely healthful and good for mind, body and soul if cooked in true sincerity to the countries ancient traditions. I have done so many things that go against the Swadeshi movement, that I hardly feel I should worry about Dalda and multinationals from outside of India. In fact, I have many things that I love dearly, that I would have to sadly give up if I were that fanatic about all things Indian. And to some extent, I do enjoy the flavor that ghee lends to dishes. And actually, if used with care, sesame, peanut and mustard oil can elevate tastes in dishes to levels one would never reach using Dalda. I shall add to this thread as I think of more reasons. But these are what come to mind immediately. I shall address some of the other points you raise after eating dinner. It is wonderful to have be a part of this community. And again, thanks for making a grand effort in continuing your passion for foods from India even as you find it challenging to find ingredients locally. You shall inspire many and you have given me comfort in knowing that there are those that will go through great effort to create what they enjoy.

Another great post on this thread. Thanks Pan! I love your suggestion about treating Indian food in similar ways to how the Chinese treated their own regional cuisines in the US. I would say it could be one of those pointers from this thread that could be a new tend in the offing. It may take decades to represent all the many regional variations one finds in India, but I guess it could be a fun challenge and a worthy one. Pan, I worry about losing real food in a fine dining setting, but I also firmly believe that one can give REAL food and in REAL and SINCERE settings if you can invest in creating an ambience that really pulls together all that can make a dining experience stellar. And to do that, one has to invest a lot, time, monies and gray cells. I would be happy paying any amount if I can be promised great food in a great setting. Certainly I would not go to that restaurant very regularly, but I would go there for all special events I must celebrate in style and lavishly. And certainly I would never want to hurt those many restaurants that sate my hunger for tasty food at affordable prices and without my having to make great effort or fuss about showing up there. I think time is ripe for Indian food in the US to have every kind of restaurant available to its lovers. We should have Indian restaurants that fit into every category of the reviewing scale. Is that wrong to hope for? And yes it is always fun to go to Queens or Brooklyn to find honest and remarkable restaurants where ethnic foods are served in a more authentic style. These are the places that I have cravings for more often. And will enjoy on a more regular basis.

What a great post! Thanks for taking time to write down your thoughts. I must say I agree with you about so many of the things you mention. Have you been to Cafe Spice on University Place? What do you think of that? They attract a very large clientele and many if not perhaps 90% are the very very young crowd... between 18 and 30... and very hip. In fact several of the Bolly/Hollywood stars and their friends hang out at this hip Indian bistro. What do you think a restaurant like that offers the world of Indian food in the US? Is that a concept that would be more successful to replicate around the country more so than a high-end fine dining concept?

Will be checking out OTTO keeping South Indian in mind. Great idea. yeah, imagine a Indian "enoteca" type place. I mean if you think about it, a dosa/breads menu (like Otto does with pizzas), with indian "antipasto" (chaat and chutneys) and perhaps a sophisticated Indian tea selection and pastries to do along with the indian ice creams/ice milks. Sounds attractive to me. Sounds Fabulous! Can we have an eGullet Southern Indian Enoteca Jason?? Please

That would be great.. A South Indian Otto would be amazing. What would you like to see on the Menu Jason?? Chaats are not Southern Indian. Or are we considering Bombay and Gujarat the South of India? I am happy either way. But I think of many great curries, stews, dosas, utthappams, idlis, vadas and vegetable preparations before I think Chaat in terms of Southern India.

Last several months, it has been 3 Indian meals a day. Has been actually great fun eating so much of it. Back in NYC, I have it far less regularly. We eat out a lot.. and eat not that often at Indian restaurants.

First it was Nirvana (Shamsher Wadud as owner and Julie Sahni as consultant, recieved more stars than any Indian restaurant ever. Opened in 1972 I believe.. could be 1971 or 1973) then Dawat (Sushil Malhotra as owner and Madhur Jaffrey as consulting chef), then came Pondicherry (first of the "Fusion-Confusion" types, Chakor Doshi as owner, Jean Luc and Vijay Bhargava as chefs, and Ismail Merchant as consultant) then came Tabla (Danny Meyer as owner and Floyd Cardoz as chef and Michael Romano as some believe to be as its soul) and then Tamarind (Awatar Walia, formerly a partner at Dawat as owner, Raji Jalepillai Reiss, Hemant Mathur and Peter Beck as chefs) and then Diwan (Bobby Chikara as owner and Hemant Mathur as chef).......... These are some of the more famous names in the Indian restaurant scenes... several others have come and gone... many have stayed and served numerous good and some great meals... not always with great applause or media attention, but with continuity. What is it that one should expect next? What do you think is the next logical step in the world of Indian restaurants in NYC? Are there trends we ought to be ready to embrace? Is the so called, and mostly scoffed at "fusion-confusion" cuisine a thing of the past? Will it be able to find a new meaning or direction? Will it inspire some new chefs and new trends that could come alive in the future? Any idea what these might be? Are we in for a new and serious focus into the world of inspired and largely authentic but Indian food of the 21st century? What defines such food? Who are the players we ought to look for? What dishes do you think would find place at the tables of these restaurants? What are some critical points (at least in your mind) you feel you would like to share with those owning and cooking at restaurants and the future restaurateurs. What are some things you feel you want to see in the new defining restaurant serving Indian food in a NYC that is poised to be a key city in the US where Indian food will play a pivotal role. Are there things you feel should be an absolute for this Indian restaurant of the new millennium? Are there things the restaurant should absolutely not touch?? Are there recipes, trends, regional biases and influences that this restaurant should really embrace and champion? What role would you find yourself playing in the life of this new millennium Indian restaurant? What parts of Manhattan do you feel this restaurant ought to be situated in? Do you think a restaurant such as this could be one that could be taken around the country? Could it travel the country and still be fine dining? How difficult do you think it would be for a fine dining cutting edge Indian restaurant to clone itself? Would it be remotely possible? Can it still maintain its integrity and original focus as it reinvents itself in different cities? Or do you think it is not something a fine dining establishment ought to do?

Thanks for the link Fat Guy.

I am actually glad Dalda is not available in Hawaii.. It is not all that.... But maybe I am being very extreme. You should have the option to make your own decision. I hope soon you can find it in Hawaii and then decide if you would want it in your pantry or not. As must be clearly and amply evident, I am no fan of Dalda. I am sure the recipe book must be great to have. I would be confident myself if I were cooking with it and simply using Canola, ghee or even butter in place of Dalda. IN fact, you may really have a much better end product. So, do not let the lack of availability of Dalda hamper your forays into the world of Indian cooking. You seem already to be someone with great experience. Amazing that you can cook parathas, believe me when I tell you that not many Indians either know or make the effort to prepare these in their homes today. Kudos to you. Did you get the sequel cookbook yet? Have you cooked with it? What do you think? If ever you need any particular recipe or have any specific question, you should feel free to post here, we have a great set of eGulleteers that make this forum one where people can find quick and reliable information related to Indian cookery. Thanks for your posts in the Indian forum. A formal (late) welcome to eGullet and to the Indian forum. How difficult do you find it to purchase Indian ingredients in Hawaii? What kind of sources are available to you? How long have you cooked Indian food?

Pan, thanks for sharing your experience. I wish more restaurants (Indian and otherwise) would be more accomodating of their clientele. I find it terrible when an ethnic restaurant feels they ought to change their cuisine to meet the tastes of the community where they operate. It is one thing to learn about the service standards, familiarize oneself with the culture and the social set up of that area, but I hardly feel there is need to change the cuisine to sell ones own. I think a smart restaurant would do exactly what you say has been good in your experiences. And actually, a smart restaurant would alter very little, but make an effort to educate as they share something new. It is possible to do that, but it takes much effort. Unfortunately, not many Indian restaurants are run by owners that have lasting vision. Far too many of them have grand ideas, great vision at first, but little if any interest to be in it for the long run. And yes this is a terrible generalization, but I am hoping I can be proven wrong many times over. It would make me the happiest man ever. I know of a restaurant in NYC that hired a great pastry chef from DC, hired a talented Indian chef and invested much money on their look and initial vision. But for some reason, it was unable to make a lasting effort to continue in the direction it created a buzz about. The chefs were doing a great job, but the support chefs and front of house management need from a smart owner was lacking. I have heard many versions of this particular restaurants failure, but through all of them, the one consistent thing has been lack of vision from the owners. So, now years after its initial opening, this restaurant is still open, but it has no soul, nothing noteworthy about its food and the chefs that began it are long gone. I can well imagine diners across races finding their meals mediocre and the management making little if any effort to serve their clients. An Indian restaurant hardly has any reason to not adjust the heat or spiciness in its food for its Indian patrons. It does not take much effort, the spices and exotic ingredients are all in their kitchen already, or should be, and so, it would take barely a minute or two extra to go the extra mile in making your guest happy. Perhaps those that have little self esteem and are self hating, may find it not important to spoil those of their own race. Unfortunate. I agree with you that many working the tables and most managers would want to help. It is human nature to help, but often, lack of correct staffing and disgruntled empoyees can ruin what can otherwise be an experience such as what you mention at the Quality Inn. You are a kind man Pan, to share this example. I hope more such restaurant (In this case hotel/motel) owners provide similar service and can learn from feedback like yours that a little effort can go a very long way.

Thanks Soba! I have never gone to Pearl Palace. Sounds like a fun place to go to. What you describe, would be something actually hard to find in India. Reverse of this thread.... amazing how the world changes as people travel. What you describe certainly sounds tasty..... When back in NY, I will have to make a trip to PP. Thanks!

Soba, it really is not a dish most Indians will go looking for. Maybe that could have something to do with it not being over exposed? I am guessing... not sure.. will do some detective work... and post back in a few days. I have enjoyed eating samosa chaat every now and then.. and actually have craved for it at times. But the only times I have samosa chat (and that happens to be true for the most part in the US) is when I am eating badly made samosas, where the filling is not really what it ought to be, and in those cases, I am far happier eating the more funky (fun) and overwhelmingly complex and mutilayered Samosa Chaat. In that rendering the poor spicing of the samosa hardly matters. Indians are used to eating amazing samosas at just about any street corners in most Northern Indian cities and towns. But here, for some, few chefs care about how the samosa filling is made. And the pastry? That is terrible at best. Maybe this lack of interest from the Indian customers, and also from the staff at the restaurant for this fun dish, could be one reason for not finding it in many menus. I think of Samosa Chaat as a dish invented by the calamity of poor or indifferent cooking, but a dish that more than compensates for what may be poor in each of its many different elements. Where do you eat your favorite rendering of Samosa Chaat? What do you like about it? What makes or breaks a good samosa chaat in your book?

All very valid and good points Jaymes. And the above points are really very good ones. I wish more restaurants would hire one with your mind before implementing such poorly thought out policies.

Not sure how to react to this. In the US, I have never had that freedom (caution: I have never been told it does not exist). Not that I have been denied to ask.. but friends have made me believe all I can ask for is a vegetarian special (which is always a very badly prepard vegetarian assortment, and no self-respecting Indian could eat that). I have learned to accept that as my only alternative in certain fine dining establishment.. or I order a few sides like French Fried potatoes... and eat those and smile and remain as good company for friends that are enjoying the dishes in front of them. I have been to maybe 3-4 restaurants where the chef really made an effort. And those have been 3-4 experiences in 11 years of dining out several times a week and in many cities around the US. These restaurants and chefs have gained my loyalty and admiration. And I feel they are a very rare breed. One chef went all out to create something special for me. A multiple course (over 4 for sure) savory tasting menu. And one of the dishes was the tastiest vegetable vindaloo I have ever eaten. And I am not kidding you when I say it was the tastiest vegetable vindaloo. The chef had ordered veggies from the local grocer in that area.. and also the missing spices, and made me one course that he knew I would reach to favorably. IN this case, all the courses for me were spectacular. The vindaloo came out second from last. And that was the icing on the cake. I will never forget that evening. Did I ask for Indian spicing from the reservationist? Nope. All I told them is that I am vegetarian and not a fan of the usual mixed vegetable (grilled or pan fried) platters that I am served at most establishments. I did say that if the chef can do something more thoughtful for me, I would be overwhelmed, if he cannot, I understand. But please make sure my fellow diners have a wonderful experience no matter what food you serve me. I was amazed at how brilliantly the entire meal was orchestrated. And how carefully they had planned my several courses. The chef had made a gallant and successful effort. I have been in the management part of a restaurant in NYC.. and also in the cooking end. I am not sure chefs here would be happy about altering their menus to every customers own needs. I guess the thinking here, that I have encountered is that the diner can go to an Indian restaurant if that is what they want... or eat with them and enjoy their take on cuisine. Certainly many chefs will accomodate the dietary needs of their clients (which in my case is always giving me grilled veggies for the most part, most of which I do not like or would eat in my own home), but I am not sure that means giving them food cooked as the customer would be happy eating. Is that really the responsibility of the chef or staff of a restaurant? I am not sure what most people think of in regards to this....I feel chefs must do what they can to make the guest leave happy. But not every kitchen would have a pantry that could sate the spice cravings of one used to the very complex flavorings of Indian cooking. Should an effort be made? Yes... Can that effort be really sating to one like me? Rarely, but if it is more than just average or poor for the most part, the chef will see me very happy, the wait staff will be tipped extra by me.. and for life, I will thank them for that very rare dining experience they have afforded me. I have worked with chefs that had little if any frantic cooking happening on their line, but found no interest to work with the servers to give the diner a nice experience. I have been on the recieving end of the largesse bestowed upon me by a very busy chef, cooking in a very busy and full restaurant, at the peak hour of the night, and still making time and extra effort to satisfy just one peculiar customer, "me". I think a majority hardly care if one out of the scores of customers in any shift go underwhelmed. Maybe I am wrong in thinking this way, but that is what I have come to accept. But do I go to restaurants wanting food that is spiced up and made to standards that my Indian psyche is craving? Not really. Is my not wanting this the way every one should be? Not for me to decide or judge. But I wish I had the guts.... I am for the most part a meek diner. I accept what I see.. and I make the most of it. I have dined with friends and enjoyed the meal for I fill my stomach looking at the smiles and happiness in my dining companions faces. I have enough fat in my system to keep me alive even though I end up eating little if much at all for most meals I have with friends during any given week. I am not sure how I would react to this story. I am not sure I would have even asked for any special attention given me. But I am curious about how others look at this.

skchai, have you cooked from the Dalda Cookbook? Did you use Dalda? What did you think? What recipe did you try? What do you think of Dalda?

Thank you!

Thanks for reminding me Pan. I am afraid I am not familiar with Dowel Is it a famous store? Indian store? Thanks for mentioning this place... Since I live on the west side of the village, I am happy learning about places on the East side of the village where I can get these veggies and spices. I usually trek to Little India to Foods Of India for all my shopping, but on occasion, I have bicycled or taken a taxi to a store in East Village that I know of.

Anil, I have never eaten it any Indian restaurant since I served it at Pondicherry whilst it was on its last leg. I had shared Panditjis recipe for Kathal kee Biryaani with chef Vijay Bhargava. He would prepare it dum pukht and it became a huge hit. You will be surprised to know that customers would order it because it was exotic and once they ate it, they would come back for it. The first few times I made a trip to the 179th Street (I think that is the name of the last stop in Queens on the F train) subway stop in Queens. There were West Indian and Trinidadian stores that carried Kathal fresh. I would come back with it. But later, we found that the end result using the canned Kathal was just as good with minor tweaking in the recipe. The dish you describe sounds wonderful Anil. I have never eaten Kathal prepared that way. We make it in several ways in our home in Delhi. But that is new. Would you be able to describe it in more detail? Where did you eat it? Do you know what part of the country the recipe is from? Have you had Kathal in homes in the US? I make it a few times a year.. but not too often. I have only ever made it at home using fresh Kathal. And because of that, I end up making it infrequently.

Parwal are very small in size. The larger ridged things are the Indian bitter melon (karela). Not sure which one you are referring to. Where have you seen these? Would you be able to ask the vendor what they are?

Do you mostly make it at home? How many items would you have at any given meal made at home for your daily meal? Go out to restaurants? Any particular items you like to eat more often? If you own an Indian restaurant, can you share with us what your meal pattern is? If you are non-Indian, could you tell us how often you prepare an Indian meal or even inspired by India meal? Do you have or know kids that follow a similar pattern to yours in regards to Indian food? What Indian foods do these kids find most appealing to them? Have they grown up outside of India and eating Indian food?

Great post.. says it all... No Molasses.. brown sugar is just fine. You can use any other oil.. Mustard oil is used in India for culturtal reasons I guess. Also it has an amazing aroma once burned. Maybe that is why it is commonly used. The lamb chop recipe on my site is the same as what Hemant uses. We both learned it whilst we trained at Bukhara in New Delhi. You can email me at chef@suvir.com I can send you other recipes. Ranjit Rais book on Tandoori cooking is revered by many Indian chefs. If you have found it, enjoy it. Let us know what you think. Maybe your local Indian restaurant can help you as well with some recipes. At least you can try... Hope they are not too proprietary. Let them know you are only doing this for pleasure. Enjoy your tandoor. Keep us posted on your indulgences with it. Please.

If you email me at chef@suvir.com, I can send you several recipes. Rasams are a favorite in my friend and family circle. MTR is a great brand. I can even email you a recipe for a rasam powder I make at home. Easy to make and even better than MTR.

You could use a litre of Mustard oil, 2-3 lbs of spinach greens, 250 grams of jaggery and cook this till the jaggery is melted and the juice of the greens is out. Cool and paint the insides of the tandoor with this. Burn wood to create low heat and burn for several hours, overnight is preferable. In India they use "kandi" (maybe I have the name wrong) these are cow chips. I am sure the chefs and restaurant owners here would have more current information for you.