SFJoe

Well, it certainly saves time ordering all the wines in the world from best to worst if you first sort them by grape.

I was kidding. I've liked their wines going back to the '89. They even made a decent '92.

Oh, well. Gallet finally makes a good wine....

Two separate dinners. The '47 shared the altar of Portugese sacrifice with a 1997 Dom. Pepiere Muscadet Cuvee Buster. Sadly, both of these were visible behind the TCA as great wines. Fortunately the '85 Dom. Pepiere showed very well with the Belons, and the '46 Marques de Riscal, while clearly not the wine that the '47 was, was still quite nice. Your sympathy is much appreciated.

You want desolation? I'll give you desolation. The 1947 Marques de Riscal that was to pair with the wild Scottish partridges at dinner for the visiting Spanish wine geek was corked.

Ohmygod. Did someone make me slog through a Steve P. on Robert Parker thread again looking for the gold? Anyhow, the problem with RP and his ilk is that wine isn't a scalar, it's a vector. It doesn't just do one thing in one way. Mark Ollivier's Clos des Briords 2000 is a brilliant, stony, cristalline Muscadet. Most people don't give Muscadet much respect, which is generally appropriate since most of it is industrial swill. But a magnificent wine like Ollivier's is on another plane. So what do you do with something like that? By itself maybe you slap an 89 label on it (it's only Muscadet, after all). Tasted with a steak, it's a 76. Tasted with Kumamoto oysters, a 93. Tasted with Belon oysters, a 97. Tasted with Belon oysters on John Gilman's birthday in great company, a 101. Does any of that particular amazing utility of the wine come through with a single number from RP or anyone else? Of course not. The real world is too complicated for those who are busy putting all the bottles in the world in a line from superior to inferior. In reality they are scattered about in space. The great Muscadets from granite terroir are out in the max end of the shellfish axis, perhaps with a few Chavignol rose's. They are in the dirt when plotted on the sweetbread axis, or the braised beef cheek axis, however. They also score poorly on the "wines to have with my aunt from Sioux City" axis--way too lean and rocky. Anyhow, all of these arguments about who assigns the best "points" strike me as simply silly. But that's me, you figure it out for yourself.

Frankly, I've always preferred: Flashing Sabers

Your point about temperature is very correct. Cork ideally should not be oxygen permeable. If it is, it shortens the life of the wine. Cigar smoke in ordinary quantities should not get into a wine. Of course, if you have to drink it in a place with plenty of ambient smoke, the result may be similar.

It shouldn't be too hard to find good wines from Perrieres, Baumard and Closel. I'm less fond of Kermit Lynch's Epire, but it's not bad. Chambers St. Wines has representatives from each of the first 3 producers on their website currently (all for 1/3 the price of CdS). Very interesting wine, often delicious. Unlikely ever to be a popular favorite, I'm afraid.

Hey, jaybee, I hope the wines are everything you were looking for. marcus, Coulee de serrant has the best terroir in the appellation (one of the most impressive vineyard sites in the world, frankly), but they do not always have the best vines nor the best cellar work. The wines do not always do credit to the spectacular hillside where the grapes grow, which is very sad. There are a number of good winemakers doing good work in Savenierres, beyond Joly. Most of them sell at a significant discount to Joly, too. All of which is not to say that I wouldn't or don't buy CdS, but in Savenierres it pays to branch out.

Coulee de Serrant has had problems with their importers, and are rather badly distributed in the US. I'm not sure of the current situation, but the wine comes and goes in the market. I'd call the usual Loire suspects and ask them: Chambers St. Wines, Astor, or Garnet in NYC. It *is* an interesting wine, although perhaps not all it could be.

Jaybee, Steve has steered you well. Chambers St. Wines and Astor are the two places that leap to mind in NYC and probably the US. David Lillie at CSW and Jeff Connell at Astor are good guys who travel every year to the Loire and really know their stuff. As you probably know, Romorantin is most commonly available as Cour-Cheverny, but also in some more general appellations. In the theme of this thread, no one that I'm aware of has well-aged Romorantin to sell. The stuff is much, much better with some time on it. Marionnet (famous Loire winemaker) has some extremely old Romorantin vines planted in sandy soil on their own roots. The vines actually predate the introduction of phylloxera to Europe. He makes one barrel of wine each year from this small plot, called "Provignage." Steve somewhat underestimated the cost, however. I have a few bottles of this put away from the current release (2000), but I don't expect to try one for 10 years. I had a glass a few months ago and it is a complete monolith. I hope you find some things that you'll enjoy. Joe

Steve, you just have to start drinking 5th growths--they're ready younger! The other reason to cellar the wine yourself is that you know how it's been kept. If you have good storage (Scottish castle dungeon, professional storage, etc.), you know the wine's OK. Much of the aged wine you pay up for now has been badly stored, and is a shadow of the same wine well kept. It is very difficult to tell that something has been subject to so-so storage without opening a bottle, or sometimes comparing with a good bottle. Utter incineration usually leaves traces, but indifference along the line will deprive you of a good bit of what you pay for in older wine.

I've only had Madeira back to 1900, not *really* old by Madeira standards. It was fresh, rather young wine that I wish had been decanted a week before. But fortified wine and wine made in oxidative styles (Port, Madeira) are different stories. I had an 1847 port in 1997 that was spectacular. I hadn't really expected it to be, but it surprised me at a tasting. Whites like GV or Chenin age if they have the stuffing and balance to do so. I've never had GV older than 25 years (hard to do in the US), but several people whose palates I respect have done so, and bring great reports. GVs from the '70s and '80s were delicious in my glass. There have been some 1990s on restaurant lists in NYC for the last year or so that were quite good despite being from second tier producers and sites. Old Chenin is one of the glories of the world. Some of my best experiences have been Vouvray going back to the 1924. I have a couple of 1919s that I am excited about as sensory experiences, not merely intellectual ones. If anyone gets ahold of well-stored 1921s, send me an email and I'll write you a check. Of course, you take your chances with old wines. Storage is paramount, and after all, the damn things *are* sealed with a hunk of tree bark. I've had sad bottles of 1947 Huet LHL, but I've had great ones, too. Most of the above wines were sweet. Sugar preserves these wines, and it also usually means that they had more acid than would be tolerable in a dry wine, which also slows oxidation. But even dry ones age well. I've had 1961 dry Vouvray that was great. I've heard of 1959 dry Romorantin (obscure Loire grape) that was delicious within the last couple of years. All of it eventually goes over the hill, I'm sure. I'm not advocating necrophilia, and you have to be very selective about what you buy, and willing to take a joke about some of what you end up with. You have much better odds of getting old, uncooked wine in Edinburgh than in Houston, for instance. But even a 1990 Muscadet I had last week was amazing. Shockingly old for most Muscadet. One of the best producer's best wines, well stored natch. Old wines from great sites and great producers give experiences that are unparalleled. As great as young wine can be, and I assure you that's most of what I drink, wine with the right amount of age on it develops flavors that aren't there in the young stuff.

I have heard that some chefs store them in water. I have not tried this personally, but am anxious to have someone else do the experiment for me! I usually don't keep them for more than a couple of days. Storing them in eggs or oil will extract considerable flavor from them, although of course you wind up with the flavored product. Really, though, I think your best shot is to enjoy them in season and remember them afterwards. The best way to remember them is to gorge on them in season, of course.

Really, Steve? When? I've never thought the list was up to the food. A real shame, since I've had occasional delightful meals there. It's been a while, though.

Does anyone know the history--what happened to Patang?

I like a dipping sauce of soy, ginger, garlic, roasted sesame oil, and a bit of white pepper. Perhaps another of butter, garlic, lemon juice, and black pepper? I'd serve with a good Gruner Veltliner, personally.

Do you mean the Angeli? Or the stuff he brought, which is from a new producer, was it Griottes? The Angeli last year was very ripe and a bit sweet, but I loved it. I thought the stuff he brought was pretty good, too. .sasha still has a bottle of the Angeli standing up in the cage, maybe you should ask him to bring it next time.

Although in truth, the rose' was not botrytized to my taste, but rather, concentrated by passerillage--drying on the vine by wind and weather, without noble rot. Can I still write a run-on, or what?

Go to Sparks and at least you will have a shot at a decent wine list.

Steve, thanks for the welcome. Hey, Robert, I've been SFJoe on the wine boards since I lived there years ago, and it seemed awkward to change names too often. I *am* out there quite a bit, so it's not completely misleading! Ah, it's true, the NWT department ain't what it used to be. Mostly a price/value/changing style/changing palate issue for me. Not that I wouldn' t want to try a W-S Rhone white, if only for the triple obscurity points. I'm now a slave to botrytized Loire rose'. Steve, the venison had a bit more character than Cervena stuff from New Zealand. I don't mind a bit of gaminess, as long as the preparation is compatible. I keep trying to get my sister to let me cook reindeer for Christmas dinner, but so far no go. We have gotten as far as rack of venison for this year, so I'm trying out different sources. Has anyone tried the Pennsylvania stuff that D'Artagnan sells?

Does anyone know who retails Millbrook Farms venison in NYC?