Wilfrid

Voice of reason, Macrosan. For once, it would be interesting to have a poll, because I am convinced Fat Bloke and Cabrales are no more than a vocal minority on this one.

Technical quibble.

And Escoffier at the Ritz had worldwide and enduring significance. Easy winner. And I hazard a guess he might have pulled three stars too.

Might I proffer the following modest proposition? It's the first restaurant ever to be opened in London by a chef with a three star restaurant elsewhere. I think that's right. The Roux brothers, Marco, Nico, and I believe Koffman too, all earnt three stars at some point, but none of them entered the London restaurant scene as a three star chef. The slight downside to that is, of course, that Gagnaire's main restaurant isn't Sketch. But it's clearly a very important opening. Shall we pass the hat around and send someone to report?

Correct, Liza, which is why it doesn't make sense. The conversation has advanced one step since my strictures of yesterday. We now know that Fat Bloke's position is as follows: "What we're talking about are accepted good manners among people who bother to focus on issues of etiquette (agreed). And among those people I would say that it is entirely acceptable, indeed required, to eat hot food when it is served. Not eating hot food when it is served places the person on whose account everybody else is waiting in an awkward position, and that's just plain bad manners." Comment and emphasis added. In my view that's just incorrect. We aren't talking about a situation where someone is absent for a long period - we are talking, frankly, about a quick comfort break. I do not know anyone - now with the sole exception of Fat Bloke - who thinks it is good manners to start eating in those circumstances. And I don't see any of the promised research or citations either. Is there anyone out there who thinks Shaw is right? (Cabby's still talking about France; I am talking about the United States).

Gordon Bennett (a British exposutlaion indicative of frustration) it is like herding cats, sometimes. Set aside what it makes sense to do, because that is only indirectly relevant. A huge amount of everyday etiquette doesn't make sense - shaking hands? Set aside the inconclusive response from Fat Bloke's expert: ("Why would you wait? Do you think the missing person will be more comfortable because everybody waited and let their food get cold?" Possible answer: "Maybe not, but I think they'd be surprised and disappointed to find we had finished our food and they had to sit and eat while we stared at them over our empty plates.") My question is really very simple. Does anyone think, that it is generally accepted good manners, in the States (not France) today, to start eating a course while a diner is briefly absent from the table? I do not know anyone who does, and I haven't seen anyone on eGullet claim that it is. Cabby says they do it differently in France, Bux says it would be a good idea to re-think etiquette along rational lines, and Fat Bloke says it makes sense not to let the food get cold. Now, come along, I have a busy evening, but when I get back on line I expect everyone to have concentrated very hard and answered the actual question. Humph.

First laugh aloud of the day. Thank you.

Page one was just clearing our throats and clarifying the question. Off you go.

I think, unfortunately, he inadvertently posted an uncontentious answer to a question which was not the one which arose on the Lespinasse thread.

Okay, say it's absolutely not the restaurant's fault in any way whatsoever. The diners are entirely to blame. Now, the question is: is it generally considered good etiquette in the States to wait for the absent diner to return or not? I wish Fat Bloke would look in again, since he raised the subject, because I am no longer sure whether his first post addressed this situation, or the situation where all diners are present, but the food arrives non-simultaneously.

But as Tommy says, what's blame got to do with it? The question is, once in that situation, what is the polite thing to do?

I recall the shit storm when Ducasse entered the pre-recession, pre-9/11 New York market with a $162 prix fixe. I boggle at Sketch entering the London market, apparently a scale above that - especially as it doesn't seem to be in line with Paris prices either. I just wonder what the thinking is?

That's all true, but I'm interested in what is correct etiquette in the States if the food shows up when a diner is absent. Fat Bloke surprises me, if he was indeed addressing that situation.

If so, Gavin, that makes Pierre Gagnaire (Sketch) about 40% more expensive than Alain Ducasse at the Essex House, which charges $145 for three courses. Worth a quizzical look, I would say.

Well-spotted, Thomas. I now think Fat Bloke was addressing 1) - and I agree that one expects the un-served person to say "Go ahead and start". The situation at Lespinasse was 2).

Pedantically, we are talking about the food being served in a simultaneous manner, but with someone absent. Since your conclusion bears no resemblance to the way most people on the other thread, English and American, seemed to have been brought up, a citation would be interesting. I think even Bux was proposing something new rather than claiming that etiquette is already as you state. Does one infer that no excuse, explanation or apology is required when the absent diner returns to find the rest of the table wiping their plates?

Another angle. This week's Time Out New York describes how signature dishes are the bane of a chef's life, condemned to keep the same damn thing on the menu months or years after they're tired of it. Capretto at L'Impero, suckling pig at Pico, warm vanilla cake at Citarella. Interview with the chefs. Like most TONY food pieces, one has the impression it was written before it was researched, but it's another view (no it's not online).

I would not dare describe her as well-ripened!

Ah, the little gougere filled with sauce Mornay - fortunately, the waiter told us to eat it in one bite!

Were you away when we had the bad time at Lespinasse? I'd be interested to know your reaction - probably best on the other thread, though.

No, it wasn't just for us Nick. It's posted in the window outside. 'Menu Plume d'Ecosse', as I recall. And I suspect Fat Bloke's basic point is right, in that it was a special price tasting menu.

It was a Scottish game bird menu.

I'm glad this thread directed me to Jan Moir's review, which I would otherwise have missed. My reaction was that the restaurant sounds seriously exciting from an eating point-of-view. And I agree that the prissy twittering about the prices was designed to pander to a certain readership. At the same time, there's nothing to stop us making sensible comparisons and asking a few questions. I have been translating into dollars (very roughly), and I am seeing entrees on the carte at over $90, and a tasting menu (how many courses?) at $240. Now, you can spend $280 on a seafood tasting menu at Alain Ducasse in New York, and you can probably spend the equivalent on white truffle menus at more than one Manhattan restaurant. But it's worth saying that standard tasting menus, even at the costliest Manhattan restaurants, are significantly les expensive. As for the carte prices, they do raise an eyebrow. Others here are more up-to-date on French three star prices than me, although I don't recall Taillevent being anywhere near that expensive. While it's right to say that Sketch's target audience - if it exists - are people who don't care about the price, I think we're entitled to wonder why a London restaurant is so significantly more expensive than any restaurant in New York - which is hardly a cheap city.

Indeed. And according to my post on the Lespinasse thread, we paid $360 per head, including everything. ADNY came to the same price, almost to the cent. Lespinasse featured a seven course tasting - was there a forgettable amuse bouche? ADNY featured amuse, appetizer, fish, meat, cheese, two desserts, chocolates and macarons, and the candy cart. I was stuffed. Last time I went to ADNY, it was about a hundred bucks more, but we ordered an extra round of wine and weren't comped the champagne. Ergo, no wonder Lespinasse was half empty. Edit: And let's not forget the gift bag you pick up when you leave, which included a quite excellent bitter orange pannetone.

It's a while since I've been to Daniel, and I'd like to compare with it Alain Ducasse as a special occasion restuarant. Just need to shake some change out of my turn ups.