Jon Tseng

I sort of agree with Steve and Andy. The way I put it is French, Chinese and Japanese are the only three cultures which have systemised they approach to cuisine. Yes sounds poncy I know; basically they have a system which tells them not only what things are put together but /why/ things are put together. They are based around principles and techniques rather than recipes. It is these which allow these cuisines to do more and embrace more complicated dishes, techniques, combinations - because they have this conceptual framework which binds it all together. Examples would be: i) Escoffier, careme, codification et al ii) chinese ideas of 'hot' foods and 'cold' foods and their approach to different types of cooking methods, cutting techniques etc (see the Fuschia Dunlop Sichuan book for more examples) or the Japanes iii) Japanese kaiseiki; also the rigorous approach to sushi preparation Of course this is all a gross generalisation - french provincial cuisine is as much based around simple recipes as anyone else; english obsession with meat-and-two-veg could be a rudimentary systemisation. However I do not see a comprehensive a system running through the backbone of any other cuisine apart from those mentioned above. yours pensively jon

ok, maybe not absolute but if use a relative standard and say "the best 1%" of restaurants from each cuisine get michelin stars the logic still applies. The best 1% of chinese restaurants are still in hong kong; the best 1% of japs are in Tokyo. re the "who appointed" question that is neither here nor there. michelin go out, assess restaurants and put their opinion in the public domain. it is up to the individual reader to decide whether i) they believe this is a fair assessment and therefore ii) whether they give it any credence. oh the old michelin-debate-chestnut on a fri afternoon is /soooo/ amusing.... ;-)

Playing devils advocate slightly, you could argue that Michelin is working to an absolute standard, and its judgements simply recognise the quality on offer. sort of inspired by a quote off the michelin man that they /could/ give three stars to a chinese restaurant, but it would have be bloody good (or words to that effect) The logic is fairly simple: i) If we assume Michelin publishes by an absolute criteria, the best french restaurants in the world will get three stars. It follows that the best chinese japanese thai indian &tc would likewise ii) Generally for the best chinese food you go to hong kong, for the best japanese you go to tokyo etc. Bottom line: the ethnic restaurants in the UK are good, but not the best in the world. iii) Therefore there probably are three-star standard chinese japanese, indian places in the world. The only thing is they are probably in china, japan or india where Michelin doesn't publish, so they don't get stars. Any thoughts folks? J

oooh, also how easy was it to get table at ivy? did your contact pull strings or can you actually get lunch at this sort of notice?

sounds good was it the set menu or a la carte? did you get other freebies apart from the pumpkin soup? how busy was it? j

I remembe reading (rick stein i think) the comment that if crab came out in nice easy-to-present chunks it would cost at least as much as lobster - i think there is some mileage in the argument that part of lobsters premium is that is a whole tail is a #### sight more presentable than a scruffy pile of crabmeat... personally its as down to the quality of the beast as much as its genus - a top-quality crab is going to taste better than a lobster thats been sitting around in a tank for a weak digesting its own flesh... not that have had much chance to mess with either given the extortionate prices in the uk. still wanna go on holiday to boston and eat cheap lobster for a week. dungeness crab was Ū.99 a pound in san fran. live. luck b*stards. j

went to twenty four - the restaurant halfway up - last year (is this the same one? know there is also a bar on top floor) fairly decent posh food ie well cooked, fancily stacked etc. convenient if you need to find somewhere 'destinationy' at short notice in the evening - as its a City place evenings should be fairly easy to book. but as its a city place pricy - for that money you could do city rhodes (if you wanna forgo the view)

simon what about the city rhodes lobster thermidor? how does it compare?

PS noticed the altnaharrie inn on the list of deletions. anyone know whats happened to it? PPS matt, i agree the bib gourmand list looks a bit arbitrary (read random)

Head for the Mandarin Kitchen on Queensway the lobster + noodle base is legendary - prices hangs around twenty five quid (which works out at about twelve quid for a lobster lunch - decent value). pls cos every other table orders it they get through loads - so you know the crustaceans haven't been sitting around in a tank for weeks. rest of the food okay but nothing to write home about. cheerio j

release on the website www.michelin.co.uk - click news then red guides

that actually sounds like quite a lot of newbies! anyone got the net change in starred this yr? would be interesting to see if we are seeing more one stars this yr (viz french model where they have about twenty three stars and five billion ones) j

how fascinating i guess in retrospect club gascon was long overdue. v. pleased for cheznico. hope heston doesn't hike his prices though - can barely afford the carte as it is! cheers for that jay j PS wuz very impressed with the OFM piece last wk - although not sure if Caines can be both a newcomer and a *** contender. i always thought we was pretty much part of the establishment... but yet, maybe less known to londoners

Thanks for that one Seb and welcome to the boards (excuse me for nicking Andy's job here :-) ) - always good to see a new face! Good to know Mr. Blunos is still in business - I managed to get to the (new) Lettonie in 2000 and had an excellent lunch. So what is the new place like? Is he basically cooking the same stuff as before? How many covers are there compared to the old place? And, of course, can we still get the scrambled duck egg? cheerio Jon

Is Thierry still there? I remember him from Aubergine (his mugshot also popped up in Passion for Flavour, as far as I recall) but was under the impression he had left (which was a shame because he really know his stuff). Whever have been to RHR there was an English guy there - sort of squat with a shaven head. cheerio J

Definitely second the chesire cheese pound eighty a pint in the heart of the city, and looks of nooks to huddle in too! can't be beat! J

Anyhow very nice meeting everyone finally, Andy, Simon, Robin. Simon we must do dim sum at Hakkasan at some point - and I did manage to hunt down Howler (or, rather, he hunted me down). i) re one note I would disgree. The dishes (from the menu grazing i invariably do outside on the way home from work) seem to be two note - always two well-matched ingredients on a plate (possibly a third if fergus is feeling like doing something a bit complex...). A perfect example are the chitterlings. When i had then it was hot chitterlings, some cold chicory and a mustard sauce. perfect combination of two ingredients/temperature contrast etc. with just the mustard to tie them together. ii) I was amused that out of seven foodie three ordered the signature dish (marrow) and three the terrine (viz 'the true test of any restaurant is its terrine and its lemon tart') iii) Woodcock very pleasant, gamy. Would agree with descriptions of the dish mentioned elsewhere. Brains a bit small but noticeably there. The best bit undoubtedly the crouton - a thick slice of fried crusty bread with the gut-puree (don't worry - not recogniseably gutty) on top. Dear for twenty three quid I guess, but I daresay there are many places in town where they will charge you more for less. iv) hmmm. maybe less a bit slopped. But if you reverse engineer it it goes a) things are slopped because b) there are only two or three elements to each dish so they can't really be arranged in any other way so c) there are no fiddly garnishes and things crowding the plate so d) the chefs have more time to get the important bits - the two or three bits which are there - done to perfection so e) what you do get to elegently slopped tastes all the better for it! overanalysis? moi? anyhow, off to san fran to ski and graze. seey'll in Y2K2! cheerio J

I think shes been with Gordon for quite a while. I seem to remember her popping up in the original Passion for Flavour book too... (spend far too much time flicking through that volume in the late nineties. tomato confit; can't be beat...) j

tis korean - its in the time out guide j

young bin, up on the barbican highwalk does and quite a nice lunchtime buffet. now i know the words "nice" and "buffet" do not usually co-exist in the same sentance, but it is actually quite yummy. about a tenner, though prices may have gone up. also check out the "sushi and sozai" booth by the station entrance (on the west side of the road). it does great japanese lunchboxes at rock bottom (well, cheaper than moshi moshi) prices. theres a nice wagamama-alike in the arcade opposite liverpool st station. have to get there early though. cheerio j

Dropped in there for supper last nite - only one start and main though, so shall leave it to simon for the full blag. Nice smart generic clerkenwell-posh. But attentive, welcoming staff nonetheless - felt like posh resto attentiveness but in a local restaurant setting, which was nice. Bar and restaurant area. Both fairly quiet - resto only four or five tables taken max. Next door was a couple back for the second meal - probably a good sign at this stage in a restaurant's lifecycle. When you sit down posh restaurantly rather than neighbourhood cal-tal ambience - nice linen, heavy cutlery Nice bread - warm - white and brown. Butter a bit soft. Starter panfried foie gras with lentils and pancetta. Slice of FG very browned both sides - a bit overcooked? (not as melty inside as have had it) on a gorgeous lentil broth laced with slivers of pancetta. Nice. Main crispy red mullet with chorizo and pastini. Three fillets er, crispy pan fried. Nice crispy skin - tasted kind of like chinesey dried shrimp in places. Came on top of green salad and generic chargrilled veg (red peppers, courgettes, aubergines) tm. Surrounded by diced chorizo and what looked like tiny orecchione (presume these were the pastini). Again well-executed. Felt a bit like generic brasserice faux-italien mediterranean though. skipped pud and only a glass of water (quelle horreur) - will leave more for simon. Bill came to about 23 quid overall food a cut above the clerkenwell-alike brasseries (but a cut below the haute places - as should be expected I guess). ambience again leaning more towards the haute - but was quite a quiet evening. An above-average neighbourhood restaurant. Good first date territory. Only problem is the mighty St Johns is just opposite which, in contrast, is horrific first date territory but superb eating... J

Review of this place has just popped up on the evening standard http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic....=431431

erm, seem to remember kathryn flett did some stuff on the guardian before Jay. And there is her highness Fay Maschler of the Evening Standard.. so I don't think the male/female thing is that bad. can't add more. have to get to party. ttfn j

Right. Getting a bit bored of talking about the skeletons in hestons garde-manger. lets get this long-await restaurant review thread off to a start (Jay, are you out there). A somewhat random brain dump, in no particular order: i) National newspaper resto reviews are overwhelming in London. I would say over 95% (three cheers for Fay in Sainsbury Magazine). Does this mean that a) 95% of the best new rest. are in London? b) 95% of the most noteworthy new restos are in london? c) 95% of the critics are based in london? d) 95% of the restaurants with the best prs are in london. You may ask the audience, go 50:50 phone a restauarant pr. HINT I suspect answer a) is total bollox... ii) Having recently read the dornenberg-page book on restaurant critics it is clear there is a remarkable disparity between the depth of the reviews in the UK. things like actually visiting a restaurant more than once, or ruth reichl making notes about 'go back and recheck xx sauce next time' marks out the striking gap between the depth of reviewing on this side of the atlantic. This saddens me, not only for the simple reasons that people could do so much more, but for the more important reason that given the influence rest. review have over whether a new rest. is successful or not, it seems particularly unfair that all the hard work the staff put in (not to mention investment) can come to rest on Anton writing two lines about the food and wittering on for another four paragraphs of densely-spaced palatino about his shooting trip that weekend. I see a couple of reasons for this state of affairs: a) as Jay has said, people don't wanna read it; newspapers have to print what they vox populi want. unfortunately completely true. arse. but i would also note the US market (esp. new york) has shown it is possible to cultivate a commercial audience for in-depth reviews. b) more importantly, there is an attitude that restaurant reviews should be a creative piece more akin to a column (ie main point is its fun to read) rather than a critical review a la arts reviews (main point to engage in serious criticism, but also be fun to read). therefore aa gill is far more interested in writing ostensibly readible waffle (to be polite) than (somewhat perversely) actually writing about the food on the plate. The fact that rest. reviews are seen as column rather than serious criticism is, IMHO, the main thing holding them back. I haven't got a clue how to change this, I can only note that the US model i) shows it is possible to write in-depth, but commercial reviews ii) highlights how much more could be done with a restaurant review than is at the moment. have waffled too long too late. anyone else have comments? J

Mikey boy; chill dude. no need to start name-calling! strikes me that debating whether a chef copies another chef is like wondering whether it was michel or albert who ate all the pies (answers on a postcard) . ie sort of amusing but ultimately several omelettes rothschild wide of the point. hestons cooks stuff. hestons stuff tastes really nice. as a true foodie, that's actually all need to know (apart from what the number is, is there parking and do they do set lunches on the weekend). personally i couldn't care less if he was cooking from the ready steady cook party funbook. go fig. right, i'm off to start a decent thread on restaurant reviews. anyone coming? J PS anyone seem Restaurant magazine. (published by the guys behind restaurantgame.com) a great cross between caterer and [insert name of fairly credible glossy magazine here]. go buy.