LPShanet

Sadly, it looks like they're going to close Urena (and reopen as a basque style bistro called Pamplona). While the appeal of the food itself at Urena was a matter of debate (see previous posts in this thread), it's sad to lose any place that tries to do something interesting culinarily. Personally, I agree with previous posters that at its best, the food was very well conceived if sometimes a bit roughly executed. While I wish Alex the best, the new venture sounds mostly like another watering down of an unsuccessful but costly venture (see Nish, Cote Basque, etc.) by trying to make it into a more casual, less ambitious place. Personally, I think the location and look of the room at Urena were also major contributors to its downfall so it'll be tough to make this new incarnation work. With any luck, Alex will eventually open a spot that gets all the notes right, so he can showcase his most conceptual cooking in a part of town where people are interested in serious food, with an attractive room that matches his style (and presumably with a kitchen line that hits their marks better). Here's the link to the post on Eaterwire announcing the closing: http://eater.com/archives/2007/08/eaterwire_urena.php#more

Actually, the example of Laurent Tourondel makes a pretty good case AGAINST supporting celebrity chefdom. It's a classic example of what people complain about when they look at the phenomenon: absenteeism by the name in question, institutionalized food, and hype over quality. His original place, Cello, was a real restaurant, with interesting and delicious cooking. I had one of the best meals I've ever had, anywhere in the world, there once. Since then, he closed Cello, and opened a series of places that he doesn't do the cooking in, and which vary from quite good (BLT Fish) to surprisingly ordinary but solid (BLT Prime) to completely Emperor's New Clothes (BLT Burger, which can't even compare to a JG Melon, Odeon or other standard decent burger). I'd certainly take having Cello back over the pile of varied stuff we got in return. As for Sirio, he isn't a chef and never was...he's a restaurateur. He's better compared with Danny Meyer or the like. And it seems his "style" of place isn't really resonating with NYers anymore. P.S. Let's bow our heads for a moment to the loss of Rocco. Those who ate an Union Pacific in its prime know that the boy can actually cook. The fall was a bit hard to watch. ← By the way, sorry for the rant. It was certainly a bit off-topic. I just get sad when we lose the good ones. Back to the point at hand...in terms of layperson recognizability, I think the original list is pretty close, and has to be kept short. Flay, Batali, etc. There was a brief time, 15 or more years ago, where people could have made a real stretch and might have included Roy Yamaguchi on the list. I'm not sure if he's ever even seen the inside of his NY outpost, though.

Actually, the example of Laurent Tourondel makes a pretty good case AGAINST supporting celebrity chefdom. It's a classic example of what people complain about when they look at the phenomenon: absenteeism by the name in question, institutionalized food, and hype over quality. His original place, Cello, was a real restaurant, with interesting and delicious cooking. I had one of the best meals I've ever had, anywhere in the world, there once. Since then, he closed Cello, and opened a series of places that he doesn't do the cooking in, and which vary from quite good (BLT Fish) to surprisingly ordinary but solid (BLT Prime) to completely Emperor's New Clothes (BLT Burger, which can't even compare to a JG Melon, Odeon or other standard decent burger). I'd certainly take having Cello back over the pile of varied stuff we got in return. As for Sirio, he isn't a chef and never was...he's a restaurateur. He's better compared with Danny Meyer or the like. And it seems his "style" of place isn't really resonating with NYers anymore. P.S. Let's bow our heads for a moment to the loss of Rocco. Those who ate an Union Pacific in its prime know that the boy can actually cook. The fall was a bit hard to watch.

Actually, it seems that it has been updated fairly recently (just not thoroughly), since places like 15 East (which opened only months ago) are on it. By the way, 15 East is quite good, if you sit at the bar, and do things right. As for you doing a much better spreadsheet, I think it's pretty obvious that you could do a much better spreadsheet than that one...even without additional time, budget or desire! If you post yours, I know I'll use it

If you're craving gelato, I highly recommend Otto's gelato (available at the restaurant and their cart in WS Park). For the record, I don't particularly recommend Otto on other counts...Lupa is way better. But go just for the gelato at some point...the olive oil is especially good.

Back to the topic at hand...the ridiculous spreadsheet. I'd like to point out that it's missing Ushi Wakamaru, which automatically makes it questionable. While people may argue about which are the best four or five, I wouldn't trust anyone's sushi opinion who didn't put UW in at least the top 20. I think many on this board will agree. Also, I'd think Shimizu should be on there somewhere.

Papaya King is still worth a visit if you liked it before. Still largely the same, and still the best of that genre. However, I'd say only the East 86th Street iteration is worthwhile. The other franchises are not authentic.

The traditional crab eating season in Maryland (which is the home of the blue crab) is said to be "months without an "R"...in other words May-August...in other words summer. However, in reality, the season has shifted later and later and it's really more like June or July before any decent ones start coming in, and they tend to last until October or even November. The person who told you the season ends on December 15th was probably referring to the "legal" season, which is the date after which fishermen in the area are no longer allowed to catch them (so that the populations have time to replenish). However, for the last few decades, they've also been farmed in other parts of the US (mainly Texas, Louisiana and Florida), as well as around the world, which means they are theoretically available year round. So it's really a matter of who sources the crabs for the restaurant in question. MD's crab houses have them all year, but use the Louisiana, Texas and Florida sources for their winter supplies. Generally speaking, they should never be frozen, as they should be cooked live. Also, generally speaking if anyone tells you the crabs are from Maryland in mid-winter, they're lying. Good luck!

Stopped by Soto late on Saturday (11:30, which they said was their last reservation), and ate at the sushi bar. The room is very bright, but not in an unpleasant way...more in a clean, modern way. Everything looked spotless and pleasant. I was the last person there, and they were trying to shut things down, so I didn't get to try some of the dishes I'd like to go back for, but had a nice, brief omakase sushi sitting at the sushi bar. Since I had mostly standard sushi items (and not the more fusion-y items he's best known for), I'll have to go back before passing final judgement. Overall, everything was of very good quality, and the employees were very nice. The two itamaes were skilled and friendly, and the waiters seemed nice, if a bit green. I had pieces of chu toro, ika, aji, shima aji, uni, hirame, madai, sake (seared), saba, anago, and hotate, as well as a few pieces of sashimi. All was of excellent quality, and served edo style, with slightly warm rice and pre-sauced in most cases. The fish was sourced from a combination of places, including Japan, Spain (tuna) and Seattle (uni). Soto himself was very gracious and apologized repeatedly for not being able to serve many of the things he has on the menu due to the late hour. As a gesture he sent over a very nice aji tartare with fresh ginger, shiso and other seasonings. Very tasty. If it's any indication of the menu items I didn't get to try, it's definitely worth a trip. At the end of my meal, he also sent over a cod dish from the kitchen that would be best described as his iteration of the miso cod at Nobu (which it seems everyone and their grandmother has a version of these days). It was also very good. In the net, I'd say the sushi was of excellent quality, but probably slightly below the level of the top few best places in town (Ushi Wakamaru, Yasuda, Masa, etc.). However, with the focus being on the more "modern" dishes, Soto will probably be better compared to others that do that sort of thing (e.g. Le Miu, Bond Street, Nobu, etc.). That said, if he uses ingredients of this level, the results may well be better than any of those mentioned. I'll give a full report when I go back for a proper dinner. A couple of notes: Apparently, they are not yet serving the full "omakase" tasting dinner that they offered in Atlanta, which combines kitchen dishes with sushi bar items. However, they seem very willing to put together any combination of items you want in the interim, and should have an official omakase worked out soon. Also, as of Saturday, they didn't yet have a liquor license, so BYO if you're going before they have it in place (they said they've already been approved, but I'm not sure how long that sort of thing takes). (As for the price discussion that was started earlier on this thread, the individual nigiri prices seemed pretty much in line with the other high end sushi places in town, which is to say expensive, but not more so than some others. Most pieces were in the $4-$7 range. The prepared dishes were similarly priced to Nobu, Le Miu, etc. (i.e. $15 - $25). So overall, I'm guessing prices are higher than they were in Atlanta, but about right for this market. It's definitely not a bargain, though.)

I definitely second the vote for Doyers. Also worth checking out in Chinatown is New Pasteur. And if it's still there, Nam Phuong in Tribeca (though I heard it was closing). Nice screen name, Sucio.

Haven't been in months, but when I was there, I found it very good, though not nearly the value of L'impero, which had been better as well as cheaper. It's also a bit more formal, and the crowd (what there is of it) older.

I have a very similar report, having eaten at Papatzul last Thursday night. Missed you by a day, Jon! I was very impressed overall with the food, and am pleased to find a decent real Mexican option in downtown. The guacamole was very good, and as Jon described, which means that there is no longer any reason to endure the chain restaurant atmosphere and decor of Rosa Mexicano (or Dos Caminos). The portion seemed a bit larger than at those places as well, and served in a nicely seasoned molcajete. We had the quesadillas to start, which were very pleasant, if not special. They are the classic Mexican iteration of quesadillas, which means they are essentially empanadas rather than the sort of Mexicanized pizza some Americans are used to. The cheese version was a bit on the bland side, but the mushroom and chicken varieties (an order includes all three) were much more flavorful. Exactly as Jon described, the duck mole had a very uniform flavor, unlike some of the multi-noted and complex moles I've had, and was not bad, but probably a bit overwhelming for the duck. The other entree we ordered was the budin al pasilla (basically "pasilla pudding" in Spanish) which included layered tortillas with chicken, beans and chiles in casserole form. It was homey and satisfying, and more balanced in flavor than the mole had been. Needless to say, I'll be returning, as Papatzul is one of the few Mexican joints in NYC that hasn't disappointed. Oh, and the hibiscus margarita Jon mentioned is excellent. Sort of a cross between a margarita and a Caribbean sorrel tea.

Finally got to Enoteca at Del Posto. While the prix fixe menu ($45, I think) was quite a deal on paper, I was fairly unimpressed with the food, especially its consistency, as well as the service, which ranged from friendly to jaw-droppingly incompetent. A few items (the veal ravioli with cauliflower, the turkey osso bucco and the calimari) were very good. Most were ordinary. The fish dish we ordered was very fishy tasting (in a bad way) and underseasoned. The steak was adequate, but overcooked and a little dry. Nothing there was awful, but I would have expected more. Our waiter was very nice and quite helpful while he was around. However, we sometimes waited for a quarter of an hour between sightings, and then struggled to understand his heavily accented voice. Since Mario Batali has such a good record of making delicious, authentic and interesting food at this price range (especially at Lupa), the Enoteca was a major letdown. Also disappointing was some of the staff. While the staff at Lupa and Babbo are not only professional, but really seem to be interested in food, many here were astonishingly incompetent and inexperienced for a Batali venture. The hostesses were essentially college girls who clearly had no previous restaurant experience. The bartender had never even heard of most of the food items on the bar menu, and couldn't pronounce any of the wines that they offered by the glass. He didn't even know which ones were red or white in some cases. He also left the bar unattended for over ten minutes at one point. It was ridiculous. In summary, I'd say there are dozens of places in NY where you can get better Italian food at this price point, and it's important not to be taken in by the fanciness of the room when you decide whether it's a good deal or not. Even the prixe fixe menu is a poor deal for inconsistent food and crappy service. Instead, I'd recommend Lupa, Piccolo Angolo, Peasant or any of the many other good Italian joints smattered around downtown. As a bonus, you can also avoid the Meatpacking/B&T-Packing District.

Seems I've missed quite the interesting discussion on this string till now. While I agree with most of what's been said on the chain (Momo-Ssam being yummy and innovative, Degustation hit and miss and less yummy, but good, etc.), I'm going to throw a few things out there for the sake of the history of this trend/paradigm. If you're a global food geek, you'd probably point to the start of this trend having its roots in Spain rather than NY, specifically in the Basque region, and even more specifically in San Sebastian. If you've done a tapeo there, and had the myriad pintxos inspired by haute cuisine you know what I'm talking about. Walk into a tiny barroom, stand at the counter, and order a glass of wine (txacoli, of course) or beer and some tiny interpretation of serious haute cuisine presented on a tiny round of bread or small plate. At a few places (La Cuchara de San Telmo, Patio de Ramuntxo) they even refer to the style as "alta cocina en miniatura", or haute cuisine in miniature. While the Spaniards in this region were reinventing modern haute cuisine at places like Arzak and El Bulli several years back, the pintxos places, which are the heart and soul of this region's cooking, were a major part of this. This is obviously LONG before any such places popped up in NYC. But even in NYC, there were progenitors to the idea of trying to offer an acclaimed chef's haute cuisine to the masses (i.e. at more casual places, without reservations and at a lower price point.) It's amazing to me that no one mentioned Kitchen 22, which was certainly one of the first places to offer at least part of this formula we've been discussing. Admittedly, it wasn't all that good or innovative, but it certainly paved the way for the ideas we're discussing, in terms of the NY market. And at the time, Charlie Palmer's modern American food at Aureole was as current/haute as any in NY, even if it no longer seems so. (Of course, putting the trend on the Upper West Side (via Kitchen 82) quickly killed any vestige of hipness it may have had, as the Upper West Side will reliably do.) Also, there has been little mention of Chickalicious, which brough the dessert only thing to the area quite a while before R4D. While the actual dishes aren't as modern/experimental, it certainly wasn't anything like the standard cheesecake, creme brulee, chocolate molten bomb dessert menu that most places offered at the time (and still do). Some of the items were (and are) fairly creative and "haute". To add a note to the note, Chickalicious and R4D also owe their concept to an earlier Spanish cousin: Barcelona's Espai Sucre. This all-dessert restaurant offers entire tasting menu dinners made up solely of many different notes of dessert in a fairly casual setting. Although it opened quite a while back, it is still even more creative (and many would say even more delicious) than Chickalicious or R4D, both of which I personally quite like. Also, just for the record, although Degustation isn't as good or innovative on many levels as Momo-Ssam, I think it does fit the attempted haute measure, because the food mirrors a major trend in current haute cuisine: the deconstruction and reinterpretation of traditional ethnic dishes. While the menu items sound like simple classic Spanish items (croquetas, etc.), the actual products, whether delicious or not, are actually post-modern interpretations of those standards and the presentation/plating quite ambitious/haute. Knife and Fork is more questionable, but probably fits in the general category this chain mentions. Sadly, it's not better than it is. Another place worth considering, although it's not a textbook example of the trend, is Dressler in Williamsburg, where the food is very much like the modern American fare at fancier places, but served in a neighborhood bar/brasserie setting. They also echo the focus on fresh, market-driven ingredients, and pretty, modern presentations. I stand ready to be flamed. I think alwang has nailed it. ← I second that ←

If you want a trendy place with some atmosphere due to the occasion, Prem On Thai is a pretty good way to go, as is Kittichai. And Highline in the Meatpacking isn't half bad either. However, none of these is totally authentic. Everyone seems to support Sriraphai, and in my personal experience Thailand Restaurant (owned by Pongsri) in Chinatown is the most authentic. However, all the Pongsris are not created equal. The Chinatown location (Baxter and Bayard) is considerably better than the others.

That's a pretty good list. I'd highly recommend that you add a meal at Espai Sucre, the dessert only restaurant that inspired a few of the same in the US. It's really special, and I wouldn't go there after dinner, I'd go there FOR dinner. The savory course to start is great if you get the largest menu, and you'll have quite a bit to eat. Also, not sure if anyone mentioned Cinq Centits. As for your Sunday conundrum, you might also want to consider the restaurant at Hotel Neri. The food is creative and can be of a very high level, if occasionally inconsistent. Make sure you eat early enough that the top level staff hasn't gone home (which does happen towards the end of service). The soups/purees were especially good when I went, and the room is really cool, as is the decor of the entire hotel. Enjoy!

Was very happy to see Zen Palate and all of Little Italy appropriately (if expectedly) panned. Good description Sneakeater! My own personal nomination for most annoying restaurant is admittedly based on only one visit (why would I return to an annoying restaurant?), so I may get flamed in dissention, and things may have changed, but one of my most offensive dining experiences in the last couple of years took place at Mas (Farmhouse), despite some fairly favorable reviews. First off, let me state that the food was not by any means awful. It was average or slightly above in some cases, and one dish was actually very good. That said, it should be noted that for a restaurant on the level of a decent neighborhood bistro, the price level and the poor service were outrageous. The average entree when I visited was $42!!! I ordered a fish dish as a special (I think it was snapper or some other common/not pricey variety) and it was $48, and didn't feature any special ingredients to justify the price. This made it more expensive than almost all other places in the city at the time (about two years ago). The cheapest wine on the menu was about $60 and was total crap. In fact, there wasn't a decent wine on the list under $100. Pretty rich for a neighborhood joint that claimed to be inspired by French peasant food. Furthermore, the staff didn't know the first thing about any of the food or wine. I noticed that the markup on wine was about 4 times RETAIL (normally, 2-3 times WHOLESALE is customary). They clearly were not used to having customers who were familiar with any of the wines, so had never been called on this before (or at least pretended so). When I politely questioned this, a manager came to my table and tried to lie about it, until I made it clear that I knew the wines in question and their prices. He quickly backpedaled and offered to bring me something a little better, which wasn't on the list. He brought a very serviceable Alsatian wine that goes for about $20 in the store and told me he would charge me $60, which I accepted. I later noticed that it was listed at $155 on the wine list! To reiterate, the food was OK, and one pork dish (at $38, the cheapest item on the menu) was actually very good. But the presumtuousness of the place and it's position in the city's pecking order was really offensive. And at those prices, they could have at least hired servers who knew what animal the various items on the menu came from or were willing to ask someone who did. For the record, I have no problem with paying very high prices for food (I happily ate at Masa, and thought it was fair value), but Mas was very much the Emperor's new clothes.

Just wanted to add another good burger to the thread that I haven't seen mentioned. Surprisingly, the burger at Odeon in Tribeca is very good most of the time. I'd be happy to endorse various choices that already appear here (Dumont, Bistro, BJ at Parker Meridien, etc.) but everyone is already well aware of those. The Odeon is usually at the same level, and it's easier to get in there much of the time.

There's good news and bad news. The bad news is that there still isn't all that much top notch food in the 'hood. The good news is that there are plenty of places FAR better than Heartland Brewery, depending on what type and level of dining you're looking for. For casual lunch, the soups, mains and some sandwiches at Smorgas Chef aren't bad at all, and the Swedish meatballs quite good. The best Japanese in the area is Ise (on Pine, I think). I'm a big sushi purist, and while this place doesn't stand up to the top in town (Ushi Wakamaru, Yasuda, Kuruma, etc.), it's good enough that it's where most Japanese businessmen head when they're downtown. Fairly traditional, and the quality of the fish, etc. is well above average. Also, Bridge Cafe is quite good, if a bit overpriced, and if Bayard's is still around, the food is quite good, even though it's very old school (dover sole, prime rib, etc.). There's also Mark Joseph steakhouse, which is above the level of the Smith and Wollenskys of the world, though not in the league of the best steaks in town (Luger, Strip House). There are a few more than serviceable Italian places, including the new Barbarini Alimentari, and I'd eat Thai at Bennie's or even Lemongrass before braving Heartland. Les Halles is hit and miss, doing some bistro standards pretty well, while messing up on others. If you're willing to move around a bit, there are many good places to eat on the edge of Chinatown and in the southeast part of Tribeca, and a number of them deliver to the area you mentioned (including Kitchenette and Roisin in Tribeca, and Doyers Vietnamese in Chintown). I can provide more info on those and others in Chinatown and Tribeca if you like.

I think this perfectly states the merits of the BLT's versus other steakhouses. ← Thanks:)

Can't speak to specific menu items, but I'm pretty sure both BLT's have specific dry-aged items. It's likely that the others (not otherwise specified) are wet aged, if at all. Having eaten at BLT Prime, and generally liking Laurent Tourondel's food, I can tell you that as a pure steak place, neither BLT is in Luger's league. And if you want a traditional steak there are a few others places I'd consider before the BLT's. However, if you want a more varied experience (i.e. a menu with other, more creative items, some seafood and chicken, etc.), then the BLT's are a good bet. If you're a real red meat guy, and want a great steak without leaving Manhattan, I'd also suggest you check out Strip House...their bone in Rib Eye (chop) is one of the best in NY. Also, the Luger offshoots (Ben and Jacks, Wolfgang's, etc.) should produce a fairly Luger-esque experience.

A very sad day, indeed. I only went a few times, but was always impressed by the food, atmosphere, professionalism, etc. Anyone know what the story is? I'm guessing they just weren't making money, but I know there are many other possbilities (retirement, relocation, lease changes, etc.)

If you care anything about food, I would tell you to stay away from Spice Market.. The place is certainly gorgeous before its filled with people.. You want decor and Asian, I would tell you to go to Sakagura.. Its in this underground Japanese Tea Garden type setting.. The food is really good.. Its hip with out being pretentious.. But it might be a little tame for what I feel your looking for.. I have yet to go but, I have seen photos of the inside of La Atilier de Robuchon... The food is certainly going to be good and the room looks really pretty..One would guess its going to be expensive.. Asia De Cuba I went to years ago so I can't really tell you too much about it.. But along those lines maybe try Japonaise.. Its a Chicago transplant, two level place with a clubby feel.. I went there the first night they opened and had a fun time.. Sitting in the lounge ordering different tastes of things.. ← If you're willing to include straight up Japanese in your search for an "Asian" place, two others with really nice decor and good food are Megu (downtown) and En Japanese Brasserie. Even though it's apples to oranges, both have better food than any on the list. Of your list, I'll echo that Kittichai is the strongest, although it seems that further endorsement isn't necessary.