Sneakeater

you hang out with people ouside of your socioeconomic circle (it usually involves effort, but can be rewarding...people who'll go to Olive Garden with you!)

At least one did. Probably two. Thanks. That's really interesting.

There's an Olive Garden on 23rd St.? Go know. OK, so I take it back about Outback.

I think Olive Garden is different from Domino's and maybe Outback in that regard. I'm sure Olive Garden in Times Square gets very few local customers. I doubt that tourists are ordering in from Domino's, though. As for Outback, I'd guess its location on 23rd St. argues against a predominantly tourist customer base.

In an exchange on the New York board with M.X.Hassett, I complained that several of the cocktails at the Manhattan restaurant 5 Ninth struck me as being too bitter. Thinking about it, I realize that all these cocktails were "classic" cocktails based on old recipes. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but my incomplete and possibly misinformed knowledge of cocktail history leads me to wonder whether, a hundred or so years ago, people simply liked cocktails to be more bitter than we like them now. If I understand correctly (here's the "little knowledge" part -- unfortunately very little), bitters played a big part in the early days of cocktails, and were a much more common -- and desired -- ingredient then than now. So my first question is, could this thesis be correct? My second question is, if it is, why does this not bother me when I order "classic" cocktails at other New York watering holes, like Pegu Club or the Flatiron Lounge? Do they adjust old recipes to accomodate the contemporary palate? Or am I just making this up out of whole cloth?

Your dedication is inspiring.

On the whole, though, I want to say that I like 5 Ninth a lot. I'm always very happy to go there. I think that if it were in a different part of town, it would have a much better general reputation.

I'm looking at the cocktail list on their website -- which is VERY abbreviated compared to the one you get in the restaurant -- and I'm not seeing any of the offending ones. There was a rum cocktail a friend ordered that we both thought was too bitter (I think it was called a Pompadour). There was a gin cocktail or maybe two of them I ordered that I also found too bitter. Understand, I LIKE bitter drinks -- one of my usuals is a Manhattan, and at home I'm on a Saranac kick. But these drinks went too far. So I guess my problem is that 5 Ninth isn't like the Pegu Club, where you can order any cocktail that looks good and be confident that it will probably exceed your expectations. Some cocktails here just don't work (to my taste and that of at least one rum-drinking female).

Hey! I have a solution! Maybe Daniel could go to OG with one of phaelon56's ex-girlfriends!

conversely, how do you manage to meet only people who share your tastes? in everything? ← I don't. As I said, they go for more (what's the word?) upscale or expensive bad places. ← Or, to be fair, more pretentious bad places. I'm not saying they're golddiggers (hey, I made that line up myself; think I could have a hit record?). How can I communicate this? In New York City, certain classes of people aren't gonna be caught dead in a chain restaurant like Olive Garden, irrespective of how serious they are about food or how good their taste is.

I find that some of the cocktails there sound better than they taste.

(Actually, now there's ONE . . . .)

Life isn't that easy.

This is what I was trying to say. Daniel can't find anyone to go there for free.

conversely, how do you manage to meet only people who share your tastes? in everything? ← I don't. As I said, they go for more (what's the word?) upscale or expensive bad places.

This is gonna sound snobby, but I don't mean it that way. And maybe we're existing in different worlds (I'm a nearly 50-year-old lawyer). But how do you come to meet people who are enthused about OG? I just never run into people like that. (After some expensive dates, I almost wish I would meet someone who'd be satisfied with OG.) (Then I wake up.) (See note in prior post about this doesn't mean the people I know all have good taste or anything.)

Maybe it's different elsewhere, but here in New York it's really a class thing. I don't live in a cul-de-sac, but I can assure you that nobody in my building would go to (or at least admit to going to) Olive Garden. And if anybody in my office would, it certainly wouldn't be anyone on the professional staff. That's not to say that all these people are foodies, much less that they all have equisite taste. Just that they'd have different class-specific bad places to go to.

As I keep saying, whatever Zac Pelaccio's other merits and demerits might be, the guy's a Master of Fat.

You don't have to like that stuff. But you're not gonna get very far trying to impose your preferences on others.

I'm just wondering where THIS particular definition came from. (I guess Stan Brakhage doesn't make movies, either.)

This may be off-topic, but isn't the point that it's OPPOSITE of communism?

I very strongly agree with this, FWIW.

Wouldn't that just be a ground for holding back the review?

The latter, believe me. I actually expected the food to be much worse and more expensive than it was, so my impression was shaped to some extent by low expectations. ← It's also funny you should say that. Because I always thought there was sort of an overreaction against 66. I stopped going there once the novelty wore off because I didn't think it was a good value. But I never thought it was bad. To the contrary, I thought it was good (very good even). Just not good enough (or better enough).

It's interesting that you should make that comment. I guess it depends on what you mean by "this sort of place." I went to 66 pretty frequently when it first opened. But that was mainly for buzz/novelty value (I loved Richard Meier's decor). But after a while, I just couldn't get past the thought that I didn't like the food much or even any better than at my favorite places a few blocks away in Chinatown. Where it's much cheaper. So I guess it depends on whether you mean "New York Chinese place" or "well-designed place affiliated with famous chef".