baruch

KUDOs to "rail paul!!! great observation & thx for bringing it the attention it deserves. my favorite topic & one i can't get anyone interested in. compare the price from the vineyard - to - the wholesale markup - to - the retail markup - & then, voila - the restaurant markup!!! why do we put up with this crap?? because: we are stupid!!! its a joke when the wine industry can't figure out why wine is not more popular!!! what's the mystery? it will be interesting when nyorker's can buy direct, but it still won't have an effect on restaurant prices. why don't we boycott? because - we are all stupid, including me!!

for the "best" beer one can EASILY purchase in the US, which is the better selection: anchor steam or sierra pale ale?? obviously aware of a zillion others, BUT after reading, tasting (the best part); appears that a rough consensus emerges between the above two with the deciding factor being "easily able to purchase!!! san miguel dark supposely considered superior, BUT can not find, even in manhattan!!! thoughts appreciated.

if u want good Q, stay on I-95 til SC, then u will defintely find better Q than in NC :-))))))))

thx to all who have responded with terrific thoughts & ideas. personally, i have decided to go somewhat american & somewhat french (my biased favorite). aperitifs - will try the roederer estate, from anderson valley, sparkling wine, & for such a meal with so many flavors & crosscurrents, decided on a chateauneuf du pape slightly chilled & the "queen" of beaujolais - a fleurie, more chilled. either should be a good match. whites seem to be just a touch too light for a gamey, although more domesticated in this day & time, turkey with heavy dressings. the fleurie fruits bring in the other dishes & sauces nicely with the white/dark meat. love french rieslings, but in this case, seem a little too timid.

thoughts on good wine combos with a holiday meal consisting of: roast turkey; bread, herb, apple, cranberry raisin stuffing in the smaller cavity with a cornbread & sausage stuffing in the larger cavity; potato pie, a sweet potato casserole, cranberry sauce , mushroom gravy, & salad. which wine(s) to serve with this multi-flavored holiday meal?????????? a zin? an american cab? a french bordeaux or burgundy? a beaujolais? (which cru?), merlot? pinot noir? let's see how egulleteers solve this riddle.

thank those who responded. thought there would be more due to cafe lux's amazing popularity, longevity, as well as an actors' designation spot, but guess egulleteers not as familar as 1 would have thought. p.s. was not a martell's thread

have eaten twice @ aix; once @the bar, & once on the 3rd fl dining area. restaurant beautifully designed, very "francophilian" via windows overlooking bwy + lovely hues,, & the chef/owner's background. bar area well planned & inviting. hopefully, the menu will be enlarged slightly, but is a minor quibble. unfortunately, the wine list is, as typical, outrageously inflated, but until diners boycott restaurant wine prices will this ever be rectified - maybe we need a national "dine out, but do-not-order wine in a restaurant" day?? wonderful dinner from a limited menu, which i personally favor. only quibble is that food is somewhat messed with too much vs. a more straightforward approach. service quite good, but has room to improve. don't think there is a bad seat in the entire restaurant. personally, did not think plastic badoit or vittel bottles "fit" into the decor - glass bottles certainly classier & cannot be that hard to find. overall, since the restaurant is relatively new, its opening appears to be successful & "hopefully" things will only improve.

cafe luxembourg, long a fixture on the uws, has not been mentioned very often here. curious as to what this site thinks of the food, wine list, & ambiance??

sorry, lullylou, stand corrected. do u prefer beef-to-pork? & dry rub-to- wet? :D

kudos, as usual, to the ever-insightful Ruby. thx for your "preview" review. saddened to hear that blue smoke "may be" more mirrors than smoke. hopefully will try soon & report in. also, thx to Ron who obviously knows his bbq. couldn't agree more with your critique. st.louis bbq?? spent many summers in memphis where bbq IS BBQ. it is very true that pork shoulders, boston butts, & spareribs are relatively inexpensive. u would think a smart restauranteur, such as Meyer, would reflect that in his prices as well as hire some1 from SC, NC, GA (?), or TN, but ILL?? regardless of the memphis awards. seems to me the way u operate a successful BBQ "PLACE" in manhattan is to serve great bbq done by a pro, & make your $'s on the bar & 'other' dishes on the menu, i.e., smoked turkeys, chicken, fish, etc, as well as more involved dishes; therefore, appealing to a broader mass & making it more of a destination rather than an occassional bbq "fix". but alas, that would require quite a bit of sophisticated thinking & as importantly, would require 2 chefs: 1 for the bbq + smoking, etc, & another chef with a certain degree of "je ne sais quoi", providing dishes that more emulate a higher end restaurant, a la USC or GT. is this too much to ask??

so does the hype match the pork?????????????????

heartfelt thx to Ruby - have enjoyed all of your comments & observations. ActorDan: in my opinion, i believe u have summed up what is unfortunately a truism; however, the good news is: that's why we have Paris, & in this case, there is no bad news, i.e., manhattan is manhattan & balthzar, etc... are pretty good substitutes! so - with all that - is there a quintessential bistro(t) in manhattan??? borrowing from Ruby's list of attributes listed above, my vote is still "Quatorze bis". i know: not French-owned; very few, if any french employees; not sure about the background music; but echoing Bux & the Fat-Guy, one must be flexible & not get too bogged down in the details. Quatorze does have a decent buzz, its off the beaten track (?), in nice weather french doors open onto a pleasant part of 79th complete with dogs under the tables outside, sufficient menu with both bistro & brasserie offerings, decent wine list, & yes Ruby, if i close my eyes, i do think of Paris. of course, that is only after 3 pastis's :)) &, if possible, only 1 bistro selection / observer re: the "quintessential..."

funny, i thought this string was about the "most french-like bistrots in manhattan", not irish pubs, or whether 'bistro' or bistrots' is the correct term, or the derivation thereof. refer back to the origiinal list to either attempt to narrow or widen list & thx to all those participating regarding the original question.

no question about that, but assuming it is impossible to arrive at a reasonable answer to manhattan's concept, even I realize one has to compromise as to definitions & not attempt to split too many hairs; therefore, even though i would like a place similar to balzar & with the proviso that it would have the owner-chef in the kitchen & mom out front, it seems too idealized. therefore, by deduction or reduction, balthazar may be as close as one can get to recreating that parsian "feel" whether it is from a bistro or brasserie - so be it. maybe the alternative is L'Absinthe, although price-wise, hard to just drop in & dine every nite. but then again, that depends on one's economic situation which is an area that should remain outside this string.

no offense taken at all Bux, only meant that dishes a la a salade "frisee aux lardons" do have a certain "je ne sais quai", & i would like to have the opportunity of trying an original version somewhere within the borders of manhattan instead of travelling to Paris or Lyon. abstract is fine, but a little too pristine for me, a la Fleur de Sel's decor. & not splitting hairs, but vis-a-vis the brasserie (alsatian) arguement vs the bistrot/bistro; i'm categorizing my question as it relates to a bistro in comparing a nyc "bistro" to a parisian bistro, not the brasserie, which i recognize is probably the more prevalent of the 2 here (NYC). & i would agree with steve p. in that brasseries appear to be more of a staged setting whether nyc or paris - thats both their + & -. on the other hand, it does seem that balthazar has settled in as a pretty good alternative, & that pastis has now become the "pretty boy". I did not mean to infer that Flo Grp dismantles physically, but mentally is another viewpoint & i belive Gopnick captures that far better than I, & quite frankly, i don't go to Paris or here, to dine with bus tours. if that is Flo's intention, then can scratch all within his empire. a pet peeve anyway, is any chain of restaurants! re: Quatorze - seems to me to have MORE bistro-like offerings than others & that was my only point. if u agree re: both look & feel, which u state, then the menu is close enough. would love to hear further comments as to the above as well attempting to burrow deeper as to what constitutes a bistro in Manhattan or is there no such thing. maybe balthazar does win by default. if that is the general opinion, then i am sorry i live so far uptown :))))))

WOW! who says egullet members are not passionate??? thx to everyone who has taken the time to respond, so far. a few comments, if i may: bux - this is not "my" frizee recipe, but the standard "french". 11 park a little too fancy to qualify as a "bistrot", but food is excellent. your description of balthazar & pastis as movie sets is a very interesting observation & one i concur with. being self-conscious or pretentious is also in the "eye of the beholder", but the 2 seem to fit the definition. ambiance can be just as important as the food. thx again for your insightful comments. stefanyb - thx, will try L'Acajou; plotski - love d'Artagnan, but no bar to speak of unfortunately. Quartorze WAS on orig list, park bistro needs some mouth-to-mouth, & we did not have an opportunity in Lyon to try one of the bouchons: the 2 hrs we allotted for a wonderful lunch was interrupted by the 2 hrs it took to return our rented car @the train station :) i think bux is saying that balthazar/pastis are trying too hard & therefore may capture the look, but that is a far cry from the "FEEL", n'est ce pas? as for baruch, u're rt -whats a nice jewish boy doing in a place like this :) jaybee - merci!! fyi: recently returned to chez pauline & sadly not the same quality as i remembered. your others bring back great memories & too many calories. love your Q re: NYC vs Paris, etc ... i don't think u could recreate the whole deal @ La Tour de Monthlery which, for me, is the ultimate bistro. hope it never changes, but know it will once Denise goes to that great bistro in the sky with the rest of the characters you always find @the tiny bar. would also add: chez georges 2e, L'Ami Louis 3e, Bras. Lipp, Chez Paul, La Regalade 14e. ruby, ruby - excellent observations & criteria!!!! + an excellent list. lesley c - another great comment that goes to the heart of the matter! thx. sorry steve p - but true, grp flo's purchases are of the original, but the old individuality has been destroyed - read adam gopnick's chapt on bras. balzar. again, thx to everyone & without being too presumptious, & this is not a advertisement, but one of the few places here that seem to capture the mood, feel, ambience, whatever, seems to be Quartorze bis. i know - not owned by french, very few, if any french speaking employees, but somehow does seem to capture the "bistro" feel. some others do come close, but for various reasons seem to fall short whether from trying too hard or by serving onglet with turnips, etc... a bistro should be one where one can go to easily, have a glass of red or white or a pastis @ a relatively small intimate bar, move to your/a table when ready, & expect to see hearty well-prepared classics with specials that are either what is in season or where the chef can experiment to his heart's desire!!

thx wilfred: have added your suggestions (note Provence was on orig list). agree re: Artisanal, no 'French' feel, but food good; Chelsea Bistro, sadly downhill; Chez Jacqueline, also has a 'different' feel. Fat Guy, as usual, right on re: lumping bistros - brasseries -cafes, & have added an update - thx! i consider a "real" frizee aux lardons to be frizee (surprise!!) with a poached egg on top, real lardons, & the vinegrette dressing to also include some of the lardon grease.

could be many or very few depending on one's criteria; for example, swing of the door (inward > french vs outward > american), more french terms on both menu & bill, the basic bistrot cuisine without the extra "frills", etc... a beginning list 'could' include (?): UES: L'Absinthe, La Goulue, Orsay; Ferrier, Quartorze bis, La Tour, Bandol, Payard & Cafe Boulud, Jubilee Midtownish E.: Montparnasse, D'Artagnan W.: Marseille, Cafe Un Deux Trois, Seppi's Pk Av So: Artisanal, Les Halles, Park Bistro, L'Acajou Chelsea: Chelsea Bistro & Bar, La Lunchonette UWS: Alouette, Jean-Luc, Ouest, Cafe Luxembourg Downtownish: Raoul's, Provence, Balthazar/Pastis, Paradou, Odeon, Jarnac, Chez Jacqueline, Le Gigot, Le Jardin Bistro E. Village: Jules, Resto Leon, Casimir all comments & observations welcome. as per Fat Guy: did lump bistros with brasseries + cafes, i.e. cafe luxembourg, which is more a bistro. strictly speaking, i'm referring to bistros, but for less confusion's sake, include both. p.s. none of the above (i believe) serves a "real" frisee aux lardons salade, for example, as to bistrot criteria, etc.

thx 4 the clarification & sorry if i had misquoted. gascogne is probably the ONLY place n manhattan i would even attempt 2 dissuade some1, any1, from visiting. but then again, every1 is s.t. 2 their own likes & dislikes. so 4 those who frequent gascogne, enjoy, but beware! end of blasting :)

fat guy: bux & i also agree on this point. as a well respected foodie, i have come 2 look frwrd to bux's comments - good or bad! i don't consider the "situations" i encountered @ gascogne to be an anomaly, so for me, i will never go back. as to your other satisfied readers. i'm glad to hear they have not yet experienced gascogne's (frequent) darkside. again, thx to bux's comments which coinside with mine.

simple: i was OVERCH'D @the bar; i wanted 2 lve my overcoat on my bar stool, but when i went 2 the restrm, the maitre'd/jerk had moved it without my permission; then it was "taken" by a patron with the bartender's knowledge; the owner "finally believed me & recovered my coat after a certain amt of aggravation - do u need any more reasons????? prior to that, i had had dinner in sweltering heat, the ac was not being utilized - i should have known then!! so, my advice - don't go or caveat emptor!

VS vs. VSOP cognac - can 1 really tell the difference?

she is great, food very good, restaurant is cool. only problems r: 1) weird location, 2) miniscule bar 2 linger & enjoy an armagnac

can 1 "really" taste the difference between a 'vsop' vs a 'vs' cognac? sorry fat guy, but gascogne is a total rip-off! try 2 discourage as many not 2 go. ripped off once is enough & if can save some1 from wasting their $'s - do not go!!