Ptipois

Interesting article, dealing with complex issues, and at least a bit more profound and sensible than the usual view of French food in the English-speaking press, which too frequently oscillates between kitschy romanticism and incredulous bewilderment. Bleak, for sure, but as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is the bleakness in this case. In many families, the family meal has remained what it should be. It is interesting how overdramatized the subject is, by the author of the book, and the author of the article follows, of course. There is definitely a problem with home cooking in France now. It has many causes, some of them rightly identified by Kauffmann: the TV, of course; the generalization of junk food, which is really dramatic; the pace of modern life; but also the powerful mediatic image of cooking as being exclusive chef domain, thus confiscating the womanly pride of home cooking and giving complexes to cooking mothers: the cooking mom is less and less glamorous with her one-dish meals (delicious though they may be) and her plate arrangements that do not have the "école hôtelière" look. All in all, the pressure on home cooking has become quite heavy. But I don't think it deserves that kind of lamenting, or at least it doesn't focus on the true causes. Face it, such a book cannot be neutral. As a commercial endeavour, it functions on adding pain where it is not necessarily present. If this writer and his publisher want to sell lots of books, they should by all means refrain from giving good news, or even measured news. Publishers love it when there's drama. The same study written without the dramatic angle would be directed automatically to the university publishing presses, and that's very fine and objective, but it doesn't sell much. All his books are best sellers? I'm not surprised. These days, bad news sell best. If Prune or Charlotte or Maïté is so saddened, and rightly so, at not seeing her cooking appreciated the right way, it only means that she accepts the situation. Let her do as many French families do: forbid TV watching during family meals. It also has to do with the apartment's or house's floor plan: is there a TV room? Is the boob tube in the dining room? Take it out and place it elsewhere. If the kitchen is large enough, use part of it as a dining space with the TV in another part of the lodging. If there is resistance, let her go on mommy-strike. Then Maïté or Prune will get her own rightful share of matriarchal respect, which it is up to her to demand, and at last people will take a good look at what's in their plates. Then she runs the risk or hearing her family tell her: "Sorry Maman/Chérie, but your cooking isn't that great and we prefer pizza." And that may be true too, but at least the assertion will be based on knowledge, not ignorance. The risk is worth running, because if she's a good cook she'll get nothing but appraisal, if she didn't forget to provide her children with a proper taste education in their early years. This is an important issue and much of their future depends on it. It doesn't mean they'll not crave pizzas, cokes and BigMacs as teens but they will also know how to appreciate other things. I have never seen the work of a good home cook ignored when it has a chance to get proper attention. So if she really loves cooking and is good at it, she is not running a great risk.

No, you got to marry someone from Lyon In case that wasn't clear, I never wrote that the plateau de fromages had disappeared. Only that it was not so common as it used to be.

Well, good for you. When you give a dinner party in France, It is still considered very nice to serve a plateau de fromages and money's not an issue. Even I, a rare cheese eater, still do. But let me point out that this tradition too is weakening, though it's still alive, and that now many dinner parties and restaurant meals have dropped the cheese. I tend to see foreigners somewhat more attached to our cheeses than many of us are. They're the ones who picnic on camembert and red wine in Paris.

Mark was not attacked. Mark was only told that his joke wasn't funny. Which is the eternal risk of a joke and no need to feel so hurt about it. Yes, that's what I mean: to the American eye. If the stereotype was formed in the '60's I do know how it could happen. And there are many restaurants in France, even now, that are struggling to keep it alive. But it is simply not reality. It wasn't even reality in the 50's and 60's for the average middle-class French family whose daily diet was rather simple and wholesome, undoubtedly buttery but surely no more than the Italian or Greek diet was oliveoily or the British or German diets generally fatty. Rich foods have always been considered somewhat exceptional, a way to express status, and even in regions where duck or goose fat was used, it was always in reasonable quantities. I am not counting the restaurants that were — and still are — pouring cream and butter freely to make sure the client will think he gets his money's worth (I've seen this attitude expressed at the Bocuse brasseries, where a chef was urging me to double the quantities of butter and cream in the recipes I was given to edit. I told him not that this was unhealthy, but that it was just "not real"). Of course many chefs do that, and they particularly think of their non-French clients when they do so. Which doesn't help giving visitors a more accurate idea of the French diet. I hardly ever do, except as a snack sometimes. I know quite many people who never do. Hardly anybody, except in starred restaurants, ever asks for the plateau de fromages anymore. But I've noticed that visiting Americans eat lots of French cheeses, yes — much more than we do. So thanks for keeping our ancestral cheese production alive, guys. I'm not saying that the French diet is lean, for crying out loud! It is not, for instance, the Japanese diet. But it cannot be honestly studied in his whole extent and described as fatty.

Research I couldn't tell you, but it is true that, particularly in suburbs and low-income neighborhoods, obesity is increasing visibly in France. These are places where the diet has mostly gone into "junk-food" mode and is based on processed foods, pizzas, burgers, sweet drinks, and no real cooking is hardly ever done anymore. The results can be seen even if nobody really does anything about the causes. In that way, yes, one could say that some parts of the French population are now switching to a fatty diet

Markk, I think you're not realizing that (I can only speak for myself) I wasn't offended in any way and I thought I made that clear. It was just that I couldn't get your joke because I couldn't even relate it to any known reality, or to any stereotype based on a real situation. Some stereotypes are based on facts and some other are based on a misshapen notion of reality. I would probably have roared at a joke based on the former, but your joke (based on the latter) could only leave me scratching my head. So please, let nobody be too quick in diagnosing lack of humor or a case of taking oneself too seriously when it is only a different set of cultural references. Good thing if some people find it hilarious to automatically link "french food" with "fatty food", it is always nice to have fun, but do not be surprised if some people, including French, don't react positively — and that won't be because they are offended, but because they missed the punchline. Because the stereotype is not really based on facts.

Good lord, where in France did anyone get served that kind of thing when asking for "steamed vegetables" ? I'm 46 and French and this never happened to me. If it did I'd just send it back to the kitchen because it was not what I asked, as any other French person would. Is it so difficult to understand that French food, traditional or modern, is by no means fattier than the food of any other tradition — be it German, British, even Mediterranean, and of course US? Just identify the starches, fats and oils that go into each one of them and then compare. You'd be very surprised. However, if your idea of French cooking is cream sauces, butter pastries and duck fat all over the place, it is a very, very fragmentary idea of French cooking but I know how people get it. They get it from coming to France and going to restaurants, and only to "some" restaurants, and then going away. If the French cuisine bourgeoise inherited from the 19th century was so laden with butter and cream for a few generations, it was a historical period. It seemed important to put a stress on richness, to prove that days of hunger and poverty in the lower classes were over. Then a style of cuisine that had been only for the rich went down the social ladder to convey the message that (nearly) everybody could eat like them. This was relatively short-lived but is not particularly French, though the quality of our produce did help. Traditional sauces were not heavily creamed but reduced for days. Slow cooking with wine, an art that is partly lost, was indeed a way of lightening the food and making it more digestible. Vegetables were used quite a lot until the mid-19th century, only they were called "herbs" and this leads readers to confusion. Etc., etc. Farid is right, this is not going anywhere, but I still think it worthwhile to set a few things straight.

You're right. But my point was that, for clarity reasons, it was more helpful to prefer the geographical and cultural view over the historical usage, which is inexact and can be corrected, as is every usage, usage being no rule. By that, I mean that it is not the same thing to refer to someone as a "North African" (for historical reasons mostly linked to France's colonial past, when it referred to this region as its "territoires d'Afrique du Nord" and the entity has remained in the French mind though it no longer exists in fact) as it is to refer to Maghreb as "North Africa" when geographically it is only a part of it. In that context, indeed, it is true that "North African" is how the French readily call someone from Algeria, Morocco or Tunisia, but it is not how they would call a Lybian or an Egyptian. But I think that's entirely their problem, not ours. I do not think any Egyptian or Lybian would claim that, geographically, he does not live in North Africa, though he would agree that he lives in Mashriq as opposed to Maghreb. So, being aware of the cultural and historical difference between Maghreb and Mashriq, I was proposing to use those concepts instead of North Africa, for they correspond to a living reality and not a colonial strata. And once those who do not know the distinction will have understood it, everything will become clearer for everybody and then maybe we can start discussing about the respective food of those regions.

Bux's vagueness when describing the French "typical way of eating" has such a ring of truth that it makes me feel he has almost become French. As a French person I am completely unable to answer the question too. In France, some people insist on good, or even great, food at home and live up to that standard. Social level has nothing to do with it. Some people, and there are quite many of those, couldn't care less about food and that is a fact. When I am invited to lunch or dinner at someone's home for the first time, I do not have the slightest idea of how well or how badly I am going to eat. No contextual element (origin, professional situation, level of education, income, etc.) can help me in advance.

For a joke to be funny, it needs to reflect reality in some way. This one wasn't offending anyone or hitting anyone's serious buttons, it just failed to refer to anything real. That's all.

It is not a Berthillon shop. It is an Italian sorbet shop.

Are you referring to the Maghreb/Machreq distinction? I may be wrong but I do not think these words should be translated as North Africa/Middle East. Lybia and Egypt, geographically, belong to North Africa, while they are considered part of Machreq. Why not use "Maghreb" and "Machreq" which correspond closely to the distinction you're mentioning? The concept of "Middle East" is also elusive, and at proofreaders' school we were taught to watch these words closely whenever they were used, for Middle East did not start right East of Maghreb. There is the "Near East" inbetween: Egypt, Palestine, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey. Middle East was supposed to begin East of these and end at the Pakistani border. Needless to say, this traditional distinction between "Proche-Orient" and "Moyen-Orient" is no more respected by journalists in France than the distinction between Near East and Middle East seems to be remembered in the English language. (edit: sorry, I see the subject was brought up above, but I hadn't read the whole ten miles of thread yet!)

I'd be curious to know of any place in France that would actually serve you a meal like this one. I always enjoy these little books or articles that, now and then, exploit the marronnier (run to your favorite French slang online dictionary, friends) of the "French paradox", "French mystery" or the "Mediterranean paradox" or the "Cretan miracle" or whatever. They are always based on the statement that the populations they describe do not eat like normal people, but... Oh, and there are plenty of vegetables, including green vegetables, in the Alsatian diet. To refine on the choucroute issue, other vegetables are pickled this way, not only cabbage : turnips and green beans for instance. Just hopping from one rich-food restaurant to another while in France is bound to give you a very altered opinion of how the French really eat.

What you mean is that your diet, when you are in France, is fatty. Which is a different thing than saying that the French diet is fatty. For your information, nobody in France eats foie gras, rich sauces, aged cheeses, etc., every day, or they're dead already. And contrary to a belief that I've sometime found expressed here, the daily diet of the French no longer includes things cooked in fonds and jus, cream sauces are not that common, and our food doesn't soak in butter. It should be pointed out (I didn't think it was necessary) that the diet of a country is not accurately represented by its restaurant food, let alone by the fattiest food its restaurants still serve. So there was no way I could get your joke.

I still fail to see why you did. Was it because you think that the French diet is particularly fatty, by any chance?

I totally agree. I love not knowing what I am going to eat. Since I like nearly everything, I'm always satisfied. Anyway, I believe the places that dare to serve surprise menus are confident enough to know that they are not taking many risks. Surprise menus remind me of my childhood days in the Nice mountains, when the local aubergistes who served me lunch (the school was in the village, our house was a half-hour's walk away so I didn't go home for midday meal) just tied the napkin around my neck and I had absolutely no idea of what they were going to serve me... Best food in the world, it always was. My only bad experience with a surprise menu was at "Dans le Noir" but the food is terrible there anyway. Had it not been a surprise, it would have been just as bad.

Sorry, I'm afraid I still fail to see what defines a "destination" restaurant. A French restaurant American and British people know about?

What is a destination restaurant ?

Chef cuisine, especially when it tries to reach the stars/supreme refinement/creativity/etc., sometimes has a tendency to become shallow, disincarnate and elitist. One can just deplore this without trying to find excuses for the chefs. That's what I choose to do. Sometimes, cuisine is no longer food. There are two ways of doing this: the right one and the wrong one. Only your palate is the judge. What else could be?

Hm, I think I disagree with that point. Which, anyway, doesn't change anything to Ze Kitchen Gallery's intrinsic problem. I happen to prefer non-classical cuisines, and non-European cuisines to classical European cuisines. I believe this makes me dislike the confusion food at Ze all the more, knowing some of the non-European influences that the chef has tried to jam into his preparations.

What about "what is not good to eat" for a definition? I am an enthusiastic admirer of creativity in cooking when the process is mastered. Even a dispalatable dish can be likable when it does blow your mind, Adria-style. But a ruined suckling pig is (to my mind) an unforgivable thing, especially if the chef won't hear about it; a monkfish marinated overnight in red wine is a joke, and a failed dish is already a sad thing to behold: even more so when it is a failed "creative" dish. Our palate is not binary, it can understand dissonance to a certain point. But it can also make the difference between clever dissonance and pretentious cacophony.

Ze Kitchen Gallery never worked for me, or maybe I never was a worthy customer for it, but there you have it, I just hate the place. I find it pretentious, overpriced and self-conscious, the food overcomplicated, and sometimes completely raté. I too confess having a problem with the snot, excuse me, the foams. Some chefs make them right (the Pourcels, Adria), some don't. The tastes fight instead of harmonizing. There is just too much brain juice on the plates and not enough simple pleasure. I think this kind of research is okay as long as the chef always controls the situation. I don't think Mr. Ledeuil does. Once, at Ze, I ordered some sucking pig a la plancha. Don't you expect sucking pig to be somewhat tender, even melting, at least a bit caramelized by the plancha? This one was almost raw, tough, rubbery, unseared and, in one word, a very sad thing. The meat was hardly edible and the skin was inedible. I kindly told the chef I had been disappointed with this dish, and I explained why. He looked at me down his nose, saying that he did not understand, this sucking pig was perfectly allright, he cooked it himself. He seemed to resent my comment very much. I gave up. I never came back.

One can perfectly have a nice meal at Lipp's, it's just that the place has many flaws, including unreliable quality. I'm glad you had good bistrot food there. I'll add, it had better be good... I am very interested by your experience at Ze Kitchen Gallery. I have been disappointed more than once there. There were definite touches of trying too hard.

Right, but there are stuffy snobs amongst restaurant critics too, which explains why the truth about Lipp will be relatively seldom printed. That does happen, though. Perfectly right you are. Lipp's interest is mostly anthropological. You're very welcome. As for the café and brasserie owners, I am not going to go into more anthropological speculation. (The Auvergnats or rather the Rouergats coming up to Paris in the XIXth century at the beginning of "exode rural" and creating the framework of Paris cafés; the Rouergats, being more successful at keeping money, did better than the Auvergnats seemingly, anyway most of the remaining cafés in Paris belong to people of Rouergat origin, the Costes being the most famous. Brasseries were rather Alsatian domain. There, I went into it.) It is just that yes, there is a particular frame of mind associated with the café owners, and it doesn't often evoke smiles, welcoming gestures, generosity and benevolence. Parisians know it instinctly and just don't tickle the sleeping dog. It is part of our national folklore as frites and the Mannekenpis are part of Brussel's. It is not exactly a breed, of course, I'd rather describe it at an ethnic group holding a very definite field of activity, with all the cultural and human aspects associated to that.

Honestly, I don't know, I just suspect it. But again, the type of salad involved is the most meaningful aspect. It would, I believe, be perfectly legal to refuse to serve a small green salad as a meal because it is considered a side dish. I do not believe it would be legal to refuse to serve a salade composée as a meal, or as the main element of a meal. So I think the matter can be discussed, but at least the snappy way the interdiction is formulated sure leads to confusion.