Nathan

The meaning of the four-star experience will morph over time. Peter Luger was once four stars, and I don't think it ever offered a "Per Se" kind of experience. I suspect the Times will always have somewhere around half-a-dozen four-star restaurants, even if our notion of formality evolves. But in the meantime, restauranteurs keep opening restaurants that seek to mimic formality of the traditional kind, which suggests that the market for them has not yet evaporated.Incidentally, WD-50 and Blue Hill are both two-star restaurants per the Times. While neither of them has the ambiance of any current four-star restaurant, either one could easily be elevated to three stars without offending the purportedly "archaic" requirements referred to above. ← I love WD-50...but I fail to see how it is (or was ever intended to be) a four-star restaurant. Although some dishes work spectacularly, others fail almost as spectacularly. And the ambience and service, by design, is certainly not exactly refined. It is not Alinea and it is not what Trio was.

Rich, I think that most people would agree that a review is supposed to cover the food, service, ambiance, and prices. The food comes first, but I don't think it's taboo to discuss non-food aspects of the overall experience, as long as it is in reasonable proportion to the overall review length.The Babbo review was flawed, because he asked the rhetorical question, "Why isn't this restaurant four stars?" And he proceeded to complain about the music. He went on to list a number of other very reasonable (non-musical) complaints that amply bolstered his argument that Babbo isn't a four-star restaurant. But if you're making the case for the prosecution, should the chef's taste in music be the first exhibit admitted into evidence? No, it should not. That was a lapse in judgment. However, in this review—where the audio background is mentioned merely as an aside—I see no problem with it. Whether stated or not, any well-informed review cannot help but be a response to the body of critical opinion that is already out there. In its short life, Del Posto was starting to acquire a mildly negative vibe, which Bruni seeks to correct. All critics think that their opinion is correct. There is one other comparable example in Bruni's tenure. He awarded three stars to Perry St, while noting some fairly significant flaws. ← I think Bruni is swiping a little at the NY dining audience and saying that we're not as open as we think we are. He's right. (Of course the same has been said about Bruni in reference to Gilt.) I do see this in terms of certain "ethnic" cuisines where once a pattern as to how that cuisine should be served is established...every future restaurant in that milieu, to be successful in NY, inevitably follows that pattern. For example, I ate at El Centro the other night....I think I'm swearing off NY Mexican restaurants for good. I don't want more Pueblan food, I don't want tableside guac....I'd kill for some competent Oaxacan...but I fear that such a restaurant would not survive in NY because it wouldn't conform to expectations of what a "Mexican" restaurant should serve. I think Bruni's making a similar point about Del Posto.

As they had so publicly announced their intention to go for four stars, the verdict of three has to be somewhat bittersweet. However, the tone of the review is overwhelmingly favorable (the best they've received so far), and it should be good for business. The review also very much leaves open the possibility of a promotion to four stars later on, if some of the kinks can be worked out, and the menu edited down to a more sensible length. ← heck, he told them how to get four stars.

I doubt you read anything especially positive about Minado on Egullet (some of the cooked dishes and salads are fine). It does get raves on chowhound of course.

Had a superb meal at Thor on Friday... btw..the "middle courses" are almost entree sized and a great value. shared the beet terrine...although fine...this was my least favorite course. potato gnocchi were quite good and very filling (middle course). spaetzle with sweetbreads was excellent (middle course)...but ordering this with the gnocchi was overkill...highly recommend this dish though. venison in a parsley crust with brussel sprouts was extremely good. best game dish I've had since Charlie Trotters. ordered a couple of unnecessary sides (although they were quite good..the red cabbage paired wonderfully with the venison). despite the vibe...there is some excellent cooking in this kitchen...very reasonable as well....

Back to Bette, I'm still interested in hearing reviews from people who have a very balanced attitude toward scene/food. If anyone has any more info, post away! ← as has been said above...the menu is uninteresting...but most of it is competently, even well, executed. as for the scene: as a general rule of thumb...if you're an out of towner and you've heard of a place...(except for the obvious like Per Se)...its no longer really that hip. de rerum naturae. the shelf life for a NY restaurant or bar being truly "hip" is no more than 6 months. then the A-listers stop going (especially on weekends). I don't think this is true just of NY. when I lived in Miami I can remember the travel channel doing a special on Ricky Martin's "hot" place on Ocean Drive. of course, there were 3 problems: a. no place on Ocean Drive is ever "hot"; b. Ricky Martin's Casa Salsa was empty from almost day 1; and c., amusingly, it had gone out of busines before the travel channel special aired!

Batali has not been associated with Po for years. The Da Silvano thread I have never been so I can't comment on it. ← I scanned the thread. Overally, positive reviews. Wonder what their reservation policy is? Sounds like on a Friday night, there's be a two hour wait. In the past 10 minutes I also looked up both Del Posto and Morimoto and Del Posto sounds great. I'm just afraid we'd never get in at 7:00 on a Friday night. I wonder if one of Mario's older places like Lupa or Po would honor a 7:00 reservation and hold to it (give or take 30 minutes). Neither place is in the area, but I am 100% sure we'd have a good meal. ←

I have to admit, I kind of like scenes. People watching is high on my list of hobbies. But based on the types of places I frequent in my town, scenes and good food aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. In fact, I can think of 5 scenes that are also considered top restaurants in town. That said, I have been to other cities where scene places served really sub-par food and do not want to be in that situation again. Based on the reviews and where our show is, Bette seems like a good choice. Hopefully, it will be the best of both worlds......if I even go. Too many restaurants, not enough time . ← its decent..as in better than expected. with that said, its also a year old..which means that it's no longer as hip as it was....for a true scene you're probably better off at Del Posto or Morimoto.

He's heard that said so many times, I think Mario's starting to believe it, but it's far from the truth. It's very good, but the best authentic Italians are in the outer boroughs - there are about three or four that Babbo can't compete in terms of giving you the feel of the "old country" and the authenticity of the plates. ← where? my experience of outer-borough dining is that there are some excellent Sicilian-American style places...but not "authentic", contemporary regional Italian cooking ← Sapori d'Ischia - very authentic from same area it's named Park Side - excellent example of a Roma type of resto Roberto's - southern style at is best Trattoria L'incontro - central to southern mostly, northern dishes range from outstanding to ordinary ← Thanks! Roberto's isn't my type at all but Sapori d'Ischia is of interest.

I don't think we're talking about the "demise" of Babbo. I think Babbo was like this from the start. I think most of the criticisms being leveled at it in recent posts would always have been warranted. I hope Nathan has read mikeycook's post, because this is the general reputaton Babbo has -- and has always had -- that I think makes its limitations troubling. ← I agree with all of this.

He's heard that said so many times, I think Mario's starting to believe it, but it's far from the truth. It's very good, but the best authentic Italians are in the outer boroughs - there are about three or four that Babbo can't compete in terms of giving you the feel of the "old country" and the authenticity of the plates. ← where? my experience of outer-borough dining is that there are some excellent Sicilian-American style places...but not "authentic", contemporary regional Italian cooking

fair enough...though considering Cafe Gray's price point.... (btw, I don't mean that entrees at Babbo are bad..they're just not exceptional.) I wonder if part of the issue is simply the nature of Italian cooking...with the possible exception of Esca (which is more nominally Italian)....has anyone really had a superlative Italian entree? at least in the U.S.? (I haven't really had great ones in Italy either.) actually, on second thought, not everyone knows that BLT Fish and Cafe Gray require careful ordering...egullet readers, yes. but egullet readers also generally know that pasta is what should be ordered at Babbo.

I knew someone would bring this up. And you're right. (Although, it is actually hinted at on the menu...can you think of any other restaurant with a pasta tasting menu?) However, I'll point out that many other well-beloved egullet favorites also depend upon "ordering right" -- Spriphithai, BLT Fish, Cafe Gray, etc.

I'm going to quibble and agree with this review. Babbo does emphasize robustness not subtlety...in a way, its honest, hearty, country food...nothing refined about it. with that said, you ordered very, very poorly. Pasta is everything at Babbo. some of the apps are good, ditto for some of the secondi (of which the best (and cheapest) is the calamari). but the pasta is that upon which Batali's laurels and plaudits stand. to not eat at least 2-3 pastas (and the ravioli barely counts) is to essentially miss the heart and soul of the restaurant.

Jody Williams is moving on to a new Keith McNally project in the West Village (apparently it will be an osteria not a brassiere)...I don't know if she has officially left the Gusto kitchen as of yet...but regardless I imagine that she's probably occupied with menu planning for the new restaurant.

From a technical perspective, Bruni is a very good writer. Seriously.

why does he keep saying NoMeat restaurant. Pappardelle (or was it tagliatelle) with oxtail sounds pretty darn meaty to me. ? ← I think he's making up a term: North of the Meatpacking District.

I think you're reading him wrong. I would daresay that his companions (like Grimes') are pretty serious foodies....what is clear is that their palate stems more toward the Blue Hill than the Gilt model.

I agree.

While I was being a little facetious, what else is there along the lines of TWC? ← nothing in NY but there are malls elsewhere that are much higher-end than the TWC with some decent restaurants as well. (Phipps Plaza, Bal Harbor and Lenox Square come to mind)

well, some of the MP boutiques are much higher-end than anything in the TWC.

its not b.s. if people understand what you mean. just because all cooking is molecular in a pedantic sense doesn't change the fact that when someone uses the term we all know they're talking about something from the Adrias/Ramsay/Achatz school. "creative" doesn't cut it because Gramercy Tavern is creative, just not in that way. perhaps "avant garde" would work? titles, by their nature, must be exclusive, otherwise they become meaningless. we've already seen that in this thread where posters thought Urena was something that it's not.

As the chef is the owner, it is hard to believe he had no part in the PR presentation. ← to be fair, I think they probably mentioned his brief stint at El Bulli in a press release and Time Out or someone probably jumped on that part. I certainly hope he wasn't trying to play that up because it's not that kind of restaurant.

specifically, it is the Thursday special guanciale pizza that should be ordered with an egg on top (not a menu option).

other than a couple foams, Urena is not molecular at all. ditto for Cru. Some of the publicity for Urena (which appear to be on its way to being a very good restaurant) over-emphasized Urena having briefly worked at at El Bulli. In actuality, he is solidly in the Bouley school.