Nathan

I wouldn't count Ducasse because people think of Ducasse as the chef. its true that people in NY identify LB with Ripert, but some older people in other parts of the U.S. still identify it with Le Coze (see Robyn's remark awhile back on how she refuses to eat at LB because she had poor service at the (now closed) Brassiere Le Coze in Miami -- (LB has no connection whatsoever (except in ownership) to BLC)) but as to your larger point, I think you're right that the branding of chefs will mitigate against restaurant life. still, the connection can be quite tenuous. I have heard it claimed by knowledgeable people that JG Shanghai is the best restaurant in Asia. JG Shanghai is a franchise and not part of the JG empire. He was contracted to train the staff and lend his name. considering this, I wonder if it is possible that the JG empire will survive his demise. I can see how it could.

"I don't think it was downgraded becuase of service, frankly the food wasn't that good in my opinion. And I think its clear from the review that the food isn't very good. " that is utterly insane. I understand you didn't like the restaurant, but you clearly didn't read the review. Perry Street is terrific but it is obviously not intended to be a four-star restaurant and neither was Bruni comparing it to four star restaurants. If anything, PS is the very definition of the three star category.

its called "liability" issues. I'm sure his wife knows.

by "regular" I mean more than 6 times a year (I wasn't planning on picking a hard number but I mean more than a couple times a year)... but that's irrelevant to the point

EatMyWords: Time Out and Zagat appear to have the single biggest buzz effect for garnering people who don't live in the city. After that it's probably the Times, New York magazine, Citysearch and the like. But then some things are just bizarre. Several times I have heard comments from people (primarily in other cities) about that "great NY restaurant" -- Tao. I imagine that there is some sort of word of mouth effect as well. For example, Batali famously doesn't hire PR firms. But he doesn't need to. Never discount the celeb effect. That seems to be very important to tourists and the B&T. (never mind that actually finding a celeb eating out in NY on the weekend is pretty darn rare -- although I did recently see a certain personage eating with someone not his wife and forty years his younger at the Spotted Pig on a Saturday evening (but it was also at least one in the morning).

FG: what percentage of customers at JG do you think are regulars? (I wasn't including expense accounters and foodies who might come in more than once in a year)

and then you've got places like Frederick's Downtown (on my block) -- which I'll throw out a bet will close within two years. why? cause no locals go there...and neither is there a B&T or tourist crowd as far as I can determine. Its all UES regulars from its sibling uptown. Once the novelty wears off they'll stop traveling down there to eat (except on the weekends) when they can eat at the same place a lot closer to home.. now maybe they'll figure out a way to bring in local business...but with the expanded Paris Commune and Cafe Cluny and Waverly Inne close by...

on any given night -- who composes the crowd at say, JG? probably at least 30% birthday and anniversary types who eat at a place like this no more than once a year. this will be a mixture of locals and B&T. probably 10% regulars. probably 10-20% expense account and celebratory dinners. probably 25% foodies with some disposable income. this will be a mixture of locals and B&T. and probably 25% tourists. you can probably double this amount on the weekends. (no, it doesn't add up to 100%. I'm just trying to be ballpark here. But I bet the restaurant knows the exact real numbers). Now let's take a cheap neighborhood place like Ino. 75% locals (as in the WV or SoHo) any given night of the week. the other 25% come from other parts of downtown. on the weekends it might get a 2% B&T crowd -- if that. now let's take a place similar in food and price point -- Otto. (I know that Ino doesn't serve pizza but Otto might as well not, it's the rest of the menu that's worth eating.) Sunday through Wednesday (well, really Tuesday now that Wednesday is becoming the new Thursday) it might actually be 60% locals. But Thursday through Saturday it is 50% or more B&T and uptowners. Go there on the weekend and you will invariably here the following conversation: "This place is cool! However did you know about it?" "It is a Batali restaurant!" "Oh really! Is he here?"

my post characterized it as above a given price point -- with the exceptions that I noted.

I somewhat overstated Starr's opinion -- he thinks that B&T business is necessary for survival, not necessarily the only factor: "We still need the steady bridge-and-tunnel crowd. Even restaurants that think they’re supercool and super-trendy need the suburbs." http://nymag.com/restaurants/features/24739/index.html but that doesn't change the thrust of the point at all.

going to Daniel's post: Stephen Starr said in a recent interview that making a relatively high dollar per cover (his places seem to be in the $75-100 average as an educated guess (similar to Jovia -- people always discount how much booze boosts the average in these places) place survive in NY depends upon pretty much one factor: the B&T. You've got to get them in the door with buzz and keep them there with glitz. I tend to think that's true. Now the expense account places (mainly steakhouses) are an obvious exception to this, as well as certain restaurants aimed at an older UES crowd (the Carlyle etc.)...but in general, I think he's right.

"Anyhow, practically the only type of bad publicity is none at all," tell that to Sascha.

SneakEater posted a comment the other day that I thought was worth singleing out -- are there more high-end restaurants (average check per cover of $100-plus) in NY than the market can bear. Is this why any new high-end place is packed for three months but many struggle after that? And specifically, is this why even established, well-regarded restaurants often close after a couple years in business? Heck, even Jovia and March are now apparently on the ropes.

its both. both should be read in the context of the other. this particular case has become especially controversial because you have the bizarre situation where a review is mainly ecstatic about the food at a high-priced ambitious landmark restaurant and then assigns one star. the review makes it clear that the restaurant was heavily downgraded for service (anyone who doesn't comprehend this should reread the first line of the first paragraph of the second page), but how many stars it would have gotten if the service had been good is unclear. The fact that Bruni devotes as much space to service as he does, combined with plaudits to Robins' talent, shows that he is at least aware that he has to explain this downgrade. Unfortunately, some (Eater notoriously so) read the review in light of its one-star as being a slap at every aspect of the restaurant. That was manifestly not Bruni's intent, but it has apparently come across that way for some. That's why, in this particular review, Bruni should have made a conscious effort (actually I think he did, but apparently not clearly enough) to say: "The food is not the problem at RTR. It is mostly good. But they need to fire the front of the house and start over."

ah...I remember the phylloxera thing but didn't put two and two together with the cognac/rye switch -- makes sense time period wise.

I imagine the Turkish place isn't charging $40 an entree either. Like I said, price is a big deal to Bruni. "It was probably a very strong two and if the service was flawless that would have elevated it to three." I agree with this.

I like the original (pre-1880 poor grape harvest) cognac version. When did they begin washing the glass with absinthe? (it is not technically in the cocktail)

SE: yeah, he ripped Freeman's a new one...but that was just equivalent to his general rip of the service at RTR. there was nothing analogous to the sommelier incident.

does anyone serve chicken kiev in Russia these days? "On top of that, if Bruni thought the food alone was worth three stars, then he docked two for service. I cannot remember another review in which he appeared to have awarded two fewer stars than what he thought the food was worth on its own." I cannot remember another review where he had half as many negative things to say about the service.

"And people still order it. Even if Robins is dragged into making it kicking and screaming, people are still paying good money to buy it." But those people want it coach class quality. It was clear to me that he wouldn't have downgraded RTR for the Kiev if everything else was fine.

1. I have neither agreed nor disagreed with Bruni's review. I haven't been to RTR. I have neither criticized nor endorsed Bruni on the RTR subject. 2. What I have said is that he clearly thinks a great deal of the food at RTR....putting it conceivably in the three star category (food-wise). 3. I think the basic problem here is that some of you saw the one-star and went "wow, he killed this place...Robins is doomed" -- that is the way Eater read it. And then you read the review in that light -- missed the 90% of the food verbiage that was positive and concentrated on the 10% that was not. When I read the review I noticed euphoric comment after comment on the food and went, huh? that one-star must be a misprint. then I got to the service comments. 4. Pair the RTR review with the PS review and the only difference is on the service side of things.

How many here really think it was Robins' decision to be serving chicken kiev and beef stroganof upon request?

one could throw in the comments on inconsistent food at Bouley as well -- but I would agree that a three star demotion should be judged differently.

Bruni on Perry St.: "Given the winnowed options, there are too many disappointing dishes. An heirloom tomato and mozzarella salad was beautiful to behold but merely pleasant to eat. Steamed black bass was dressed in a basil vinaigrette so tart it suggested some kind of accident behind the scenes. So I tried this entree again on a subsequent night: still too tart, though appreciably less so." Bruni on RTR: "More than a few dishes weren’t so successful. Tea-smoked sturgeon had an acrid aftertaste." Bruni on Perry St.: "Other dishes also varied from visit to visit......Although Mr. Vongerichten's condominium apartment is just upstairs on the seventh floor and he has been spending much of his time in the kitchen here, it could use more discipline." Bruni on RTR: "The kitchen was also bedeviled by inconsistency." If you can parse some qualitative difference between these remarks, your are much better at hermaneutics than me. Every culinary criticism of RTR was paralleled by a near identical caveat re: Perry St. And here is the last word, Bruni on RTR: "But this restaurant’s real shortcoming is its service, unforgivably poor"

He had at least four paragraphs of complaints about L'Atelier. As I said above, I think it would have taken perfect service (certainly at its price point -- Bruni is far more price conscious than many here realize -- or maybe they just disagree with that emphasis) for RTR to garner three stars. But it is obvious to me that his critique of the food is very half-hearted. In fact, if he had given it more than one star I don't think he would have included most of them. the food critiques are generally so vague (he clearly doesn't think the kiev counts) as to indicate that he threw them in to help justify one star...so it didn't look like it was service alone!