Nathan

FG: ask any bartender. I'm serious. this is hardly controversial among those who partake of NYC nightlife. its as self-evident to us as it is self-evident to any foodie that Manhattan Thai restaurants dumb down the food and sweeten it up for Western tastes.

they were "appalled" because they had been informed that this was the "coolest" club in NY (which was true -- at least two months ago). granted, they were there on the weekend.

thanks for the link. Meghan pegged it exactly on that thread.

anyone in my age group who goes out regularly knows exactly what I mean. ask any bartender. (Normandie Court and several similar buildings on the UES and Murray Hill are notorious for being "starter" buildings for people just out of college...some are famous for having entire floors from one fraternity or sorority)

as I said above, the by-the-glass list is fantastic. the bottle list is small (by Cru or Veritas standards) but presumably will be filled out with time.

new restaurants are definitely filled with the second crowd I described (which isn't necessarily "yokel" or "low-brow") who do you think was filling the seats at STK the day that it opened? edit: ultimate, the term is like the Roth obscenity formulation...you know it when you see it. I will say that to non-nightlife aficianados the delineations might not be obvious (i.e. just because I can look at one gaggle of 30 year olds and know that they all live in the EV/LES/W-burg while another is B&T (or possibly newly UES/Murray Hill)...doesn't mean that someone not of the same age group and going-out tendencies will find it obvious....but trust me bars and restaurants know who their crowd is.

I was at the bar at the Times Square W to meet a friend a few months ago. heavy out-of-town business crowd. no dancing. quite frankly, locals don't go out near Times Square (that doesn't mean you won't have fun doing so)

unfortunately, your description applies to every NY dance club, at least on the weekends. Cielo would be ok...but good luck getting in if you don't know someone...especially on a Saturday. Salon is sometimes ok on a weekend. But quite frankly, NY has the worst dance scene of any major city in the world (to the best of my knowledge). the weekends are amateur night. during the week is far better but some of us work for a living. maybe they'd be satisfied with salsa at Son Cubano? or at Barossa in the EV (very tiny though). everything's cheesy on the weekends. just the way it is. I had some friends who were just in from L.A. that went to Plumm (the hottest thing going right now)...they were appalled.

I defined it before as a specific type...I'd have to dig up the post. I think I even asserted that you could live in Manhattan and be B&T (i.e. most of the residents of Normandie Court). there are clear levels of B&T -- i.e. the gold-chain wearing guido types are one level. another level can be well-educated and monied -- but they're clearly not from the city -- i.e. every woman in the group has her hair dyed blonde, the women are chewing gum for some unknown reason while drinking wine or cocktails (I have only seen this done by residents (or former residents) of NJ or LI...the rationale for it is a mystery to me....I've lived across the country and seen plenty of classless or unsophisticated regional behaviors -- but this particular one is unique to the area)...and both genders have a tendency to wear seasonally inappropriate clothing. (i.e. your sophisticated Manhattan woman might be out on a Saturday night in boots and a cashmere turtleneck -- her B&T equivalent is shivering in a plunging neckline and low-cut skirt -- a dead giveaway that someone watches too much sex in the city and thinks that a night out in the city is a big deal). (heck, on this Friday night when you see a gaggle of young women in flimsy clothes and no jackets shivering as they walk down the street...if you stop to think for a moment you'll realize that they must have left their jackets in the car cause they were unwilling to use a coat-check) It most certainly does not apply to every non-Manhattan resident.

that sounds interesting...don't think I've had it.

which mole was in the duck? I'd heard good things about this place...interesting that its opening has been so under the radar.

the Crusta is a category

Jeans are fine for Perry Street. there is no better deal than lunch at JG or PS in the city. Period. (if PS were more up-town people would be raving about it all the time)

ah...the WV paradox. the W.4th station is closer to Wallse than the 14th street station... (I suppose to non-NY'ers none of this makes any sense)

a quick piece of advice for people coming to PS by way of the subway. get off at W. 4th and walk a couple blocks up 7th ave to Perry Street (the famous Czech coffee shop Doma is on the corner of Perry and 7th). its a very charming walk down Perry Street (at least until after Hudson when it starts to get spare). as well, a great spot for beer or wine after dinner at PS is a block away on Perry -- The Other Room. about 50 beers (mainly Belgian) and 20 wines by the glass.

I think it was celeriac anyway. its good to hear that it was busier earlier. I arrived at around 2:30 and there were only a couple occupied tables. its only a few blocks from my apartment but I imagine that it wouldn't be more than a ten minute walk from the the W. 4th subway station?

went here for lunch on Saturday. now that they're serving the $25 prix fixe on the weekends as well (they weren't a couple months ago), I'm absolutely perplexed as to why this place isn't packed. the amuse is now a celeriac soup with truffle. This is amazingly good (really, how could it not be?). Much better than the borscht amuse they were serving all fall. Had the sea bass in a truffled broth with mashed potatoes and french fries (!!). the fish had been perfectly cooked. the broth was stupendously good and the mashed potates were rich...not as good as those at L'Atelier Robuchon...but not that far off. Finished with the beef tenderloin in a beef broth with thyme, along with roasted chanterelles and butternut squash ravioli. I've written this up before. IMHO it is as good as any beef dish that anyone is serving in NY right now. People should be lining up down the street to eat lunch here. It just makes no sense. I'm gonna go every Saturday. btw, as far as I can determine to be Rich's definition of a "four-star" restaurant -- this is it. (in my opinion it doesn't fit the four-star paradigm - but it is the best three-star restaurant in the city -- the food isn't quite as good as L'Atelier overall -- though pretty close -- but L'Atelier's dinner prices are two-three times as much as Perry Street's dinner prices....and the difference on lunch is at the planetary level).

Ate here with Sneakeater last night. Thought the bar decor looked a little cheap (I know it's not but unfortunately that's the feel). Liked the dining room, the wall art and the chandelier made of wine glasses. Overall scene impression was good. Had a flight of Spanish reds at the bar and had a good discussion re: same with the sommelier/bartender. He was knowledgeable and erudite (as was our sommelier in the dining room). At our table began with a grower champagne -- the name escapes me. They were featuring about 8 grower champagnes by the glass last night -- all priced between $21 and $30 a glass. This is very fair..I don't think any grower champagnes run below $40 a bottle retail so that's a very fair glass price. The overall by the glass list is superb, the bottle list is still small and needs to be filled out -- I imagine with time and cash flow that will happen. Had the tasting menu with matched wine pairings. The first course -- raw scallops with a (parsley?) green mousse....this was okay. The scallop quality was very high but this dish needed some extra oomph. It reminded me a lot of the Tasting Room (virtually every dish there -- except for the mushroom ones -- seems to be like this). actually, on further reflection, I know what this dish was missing -- salt. The second course was pretty darn good. tuna...normally I find that boring but this was quite good. my memory's hazy (I'd had a couple glasses of Iron Horse at home before Varietal...and the paired pours were pretty generous so I wasn't on top of my game here)...but I think this had been smoked. I liked it. The third course was duck in juniper with parsnips. This wasn't very good at all. The duck had been overcooked. Even if it hadn't been overcooked the dish still wouldn't work. I understand the conception..but it doesn't work as applied. The fourth course was a stunner. cedar-smoked venison. This was very very good. Highly recommend. this was a four-star dish. Unfortunately, the portion sizes didn't really change...I'm hardly a hearty eater but they really need to either add one more savory course or up the portion size on the last couple courses (in traditional short tasting menu fashion). I'm probably being a little tough on the food but I had eaten at Perry Street earlier in the day so I had a direct point of reference. There is clear and undeniable talent in the kitchen. The cedar-smoked venison was as good as the venison dish I had at Biltmore Room three years ago (and Robins is a master with game). there are just some inconsistencies that need to be worked out. I'm sure that will happen with time. unfortunately for Varietal, there really haven't been any major openings (other than Ramsay) this fall so the're not going to get a lot of breathing room before the reviews. I know it's unfair but it's reality. That venison was a four star dish. The tuna was three star quality. It's just that the scallops were a little blah and the duck was off. This could very well be a three-star restaurant...but it's more at a two-star execution level right now. No problems with the service level though. Warm, confident, measured and competent. Of course, that's the point of professional service...there's really nothing to comment on. the tasting menu culminated with a pre-dessert and a dessert. I'm just not a dessert person but both of these seemed quite good. the eggplant in the pre-dessert course was especially nifty. I really want to like this place. I do like it. I just think that I'll like it a lot more on six months. I'll be back.

Well Time Out is precisely what dictates "trendiness" in B&T terms. And since Time Out is heavily driven by PR placement -- there's not really a lag between "opened and trendy" and "B&T filled". About the only lag is when some places first open and you can't get in if you're not known to them. (Spice Market was a good example of this for the first month or so that it was open. Ditto for La Esquina.) Where restaurants may have especially errored were those opening in the Meat Packing district. Three years ago locals were starting to avoid it on the weekends. Now it is entirely "over"...for locals that is. Maybe, with time, that will fade and restaurants that make it that long will garner local business again...but I wonder. Of course, the nature of a restaurant's clientele won't necessarily be obvious to an out-of-town visitor or even past some generation gaps. Just because I can spot the differences between twenty-five year olds from the LES/W-burg, SoHo--NoLIta and the UES....let alone LI or NJ, doesn't mean that it'll be obvious to others. I imagine that past a certain age all 25-year olds look alike.

I would be flabbergasted to hear anyone who has been to both Alinea and WD-50 claim that Alinea is anywhere near as radically innovative as WD-50 in terms of food (not tableware!). Alinea is, of course, a much better restaurant than WD-50 but Wylie consistently goes places where Achatz pulls back (and rightfully so). As rough analogue to the style of food at Alinea, imagine if each item at Perry Street was pared down to a tiny portion. Then imagine a meal of 24 of those items. The culinary aesthetic would be very very similar. (the thing is, people who haven't been to Alinea would be surprised (theatrics aside) how blissfully simple each individual course is at Alinea. Just a primary flavor, a secondary flavor that plays with it -- often unusally so, and a hint of something else for depth. That's it. Achatz strives not for complexity, but for perfection (and usually hits it). The difference is that the food at PS is very, very good while that at Alinea is existentially transcendent.

restaurant: lamb course at Alinea. Honorable mention to the wagyu and watermelon course. home: well, in my Hamptons share I came up with the perfect burger: untoasted everything bagel halves serve as the bun. two patties, topped with pats of butter then grilled. bacon on the grill alongside. bacon between the patties -- added cornichorns and A1 steak sauce (just a little). Honorable mention: risotto with morels and chanterelles. beef broth and msg. caramelized onions. touch of truffle oil.

Alinea is the best restaurant I have ever eaten in. But there is no question in my mind that it is nowhere near as radical as WD-50 or Moto. This is a good thing in the sense that flavor is still the first priority at Alinea. So yeah, I do see it as being roughly halfway between JG and WD-50 in terms of the radical creativity of its food. Many things at JG only seem familiar because they are copied so much. They were innovative when done at JG.

Prohibition was not a great era for cocktail development in the U.S. however, it was one abroad as mixologists went to Paris and London. I should have been more clear.

if you find JG becoming tired, try Perry Street...there's clearly more a direct commitment to innovation in the kitchen there. but on the chart of fine dining I'm not sure JG really is that old-hat. for example, Alinea is almost as close to JG in sensibility as it is to wd-50. indeed, on an "inovation" continuum I would place Alinea exactly halfway in between JG and WD-50. (the place-settings at Alinea are far more drastically creative than anything in NY but the food is quite a bit restrained from WD-50). And Alinea is perhaps the most-discussed restaurant in the U.S. today.

are the changes in cuisine today as drastic as they really were in the 70's? I wasn't really around then but I think one could assert that nouvelle cuisine and the advent of Asian foods in the West were more far-reaching. ditto for the aftermatch of WWII. (by way of comparison, the two great eras for cocktail development were Prohibition and post-WWII (although WW II was also perniciously responsible for vodka consumption in the U.S.) cuisine change in the U.S. over the last ten years can be readily attributed to two primary factors: the Food Network and the revolution in the grocery supply chain (and these two factors are interrelated). Sure, El Bulli and the like have had a certain effect at the uppermost tiers of fine-dining -- but we're only now seeing the trickle-down effect across ordinary restaurants. The far larger change in cuisine is, I think, irrefutably, globalization. And that began in the 60's and 70's....although it has come to fruition more recently. the pace of globalization has quickened and thefore quickened in food as well...but I think cuisine is simply following larger trends...which tend to be cyclical